Ramana Quote does not belong in CN Norbu's latest book

[RongzomFan]

Vajrayana requires alcohol.

 

Dudjom Rinpoche calls it a samaya substance.

Yet CN Norbu claims that he is not enlightened, therefore, he is not in "The Natural State" 24 hours a day.

 

Who the fuck says that is enlightenment?

 

ChNN's definition of enlightenment, like everyone, is rainbow body.

 

Secondly, your natural state is something to be recognized, not to be in.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Vajrayana requires alcohol.

 

Dudjom Rinpoche calls it a samaya substance.

 

 

Who the fuck says that is enlightenment?

 

ChNN's definition of enlightenment, like everyone, is rainbow body.

 

Secondly, your natural state is something to be recognized, not to be in.

 

Alwaysoff,

According to "Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud - Namdak - page 42", you are not ready to become a teacher unless you attain rainbow body:

Once a pupil receives instructions on these teachings, engages in the practice they explain and achieves Buddhahood or Rainbow Body, he is ready to teach the next pupil.

 

So the question remains, if CN Norbu is teaching Dzogchen and if his lineage were Bon, that would imply that the CN Norbu had achieved Buddhahood or Rainbow Body. Thus, the question remains: "Why would someone who achieved Buddhahood or Rainbow Body need to drink alcohol?" Mother rigpa, the Natural State, the Great Perfection is such a wonderful state; it is filled with bliss, love, joy, a wonderful silence and the realization that you are all things. How does that even come close to drinking a beer?

 

And then again, who believes your nit picky terms are even accurate? During the times when the Buddhists attacked the Bon, part of the way that the Bon preserved their teachings was by changing the terminology in written doctrines to Hindu Buddhist terms, to make the Bon teachings look like they were Buddhist teachings.

 

 

From the same book:

Later, Surchen asked Shngyal Lhatse whether he could write down the instructions he had received from him, but as rumours had begun circulating among the Buddhists that he had converted to Bon, he asked whether he could change little things such as replacing the word Bon with Cho and so on to make it acceptable to Buddhists. Shengyal Lhatse permitted him to change some names but not the meaning...

 

Probably accounts for the fact that you belive that rigpa is sanskrit "vidya" 'knowledge'. That coud really mess up your understanding, couldn't it?

 

But yes, that whole book treats the Nature (or Natural State) as a noun and says to remain in the Natural State or Nature".

For example, here is one of the many references:

 

3. Mibon Tride Zambu

"The Natural State is the Nature of Bon. There is no special way to focus or meditate on it, neither is there any meditator nor anything special on which to meditate. There is nothing special which can be found, either as meditation or as meditator. Remain stable in the Natural State without any delusion. This is called 'No-Meditation' and 'Great Meditation'. There is neither object nor subject; leave it as it is. That is the Great Meditation of the Dzogchen View."

 

And you know, you keep talking about how tantra is a superior vehicle. Well, in "Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud" they mention that by remaining in the Natural State, one can achieve final Buddhahood in one lifetime. Not so for Tantra:

 

By recognizing the difference between ordinary mind and the Nature of Mind, and by remaining in that Natural State without following any thought or any movements of the mind, a Dzogchen practitioner lets all mental poisons, obscurations and impure visions dissolve back to their source, thereby eventually achieving final Buddhahood. This realization of Dzogchen can be achieved in one lifetime if one has high capacity or within three lifetimes if one's capacity is lower. This is much faster than Sutra where realization is achieved in Three Unlimited Times, many kalpa or cosmic cycles of creation and destruction, and faster than Tantra where it can take up to seven lifetimes.

 

 

[RongzomFan]

Alwaysoff,

According to "Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud - Namdak - page 42", you are not ready to become a teacher unless you attain rainbow body:

 

Then all Dzogchen teachers are invalid. Even teachers who attain rainbow body, do so quite late in their life.

 

During the times when the Buddhists attacked the Bon, part of the way that the Bon preserved their teachings was by changing the terminology in written doctrines to Hindu Buddhist terms, to make the Bon teachings look like they were Buddhist teachings.

 

I don't know what you are talking about

[voidisyinyang]

Then all Dzogchen teachers are invalid. Even teachers who attain rainbow body, do so quite late in their life.

 

like who is still living with rainbow body?

[RongzomFan]

if CN Norbu is teaching Dzogchen and if his lineage were Bon

 

 

ChNN lineage is Longchen Nyingthig.

[voidisyinyang]

ChNN lineage is Longchen Nyingthig.

 

he has rainbow body? who else?

Edited October 6, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[RongzomFan]

Who knows who has rainbow body.

 

You cannot tell that sort of thing.

Edited October 6, 2013 by alwayson

[voidisyinyang]

hilarious.

[Jetsun]

like who is still living with rainbow body?

 

According to wiki only two people (Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra) in history have attained the rainbow body before death

[RongzomFan]

As long as the teacher has proper lineage, it doesn't matter at all what the teacher's realization is.

 

 

According to wiki only two people (Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra) in history have attained the rainbow body before death

 

Absolutely not.

 

Many finished the whole path (rainbow body), and purposely stayed in the physical like Dudjom Lingpa, Dudjom Rinpoche, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa etc.

 

These people could have went light body like Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra if they wanted to, by focusing on the lights surrounding the fingers.

 

Read posts of Malcolm on Dharma Wheel.

Edited October 6, 2013 by alwayson

[voidisyinyang]

Nan:....Again, why do we have to study these? During meditation practice, you

may “see” all kinds of colors rising within yourself. If one is not aware that the

colors are but an aspect of form, the person can be deluded by the phenomena,

thinking one has become a master! These colors all arise out of the “Realm of

Mere Shadow.” You should understand that these are hallucinations, a natural

phenomenon of the changes happening in your body - certainly nothing

supernatural at all.

 

Now, listen carefully. I am not saying that these phenomena are bad or

undesirable. Don't misunderstand me. We talked about them so that you know

what they are when they arise.

 

There are people who deliberately cultivate certain phenomena so that an esoteric

practice can be achieved. For instance, in my youth days in Tibet, a friend of mine

could make his body disappear into a cloud of lights when he went into samadhi. I

would reach my hand into the cloud of lights to tap on him, telling him, “Stop this

act of play!” Most people would certainly be very impressed by this kind of show

off and believe my friend had supernatural power. This is a rather common

practice in places like Tibet, Bhutan, and the high plateau areas of China's

Southwest where the unique weather and air may be the contributing factors. To

me, these places are like fairyland. The body weight feels lighter there.

 

Again, these are not necessarily bad. I am not telling you to discard them, nor am

I telling to pursue them. We come back to the motto: “Timing and proper above

all.” This is the hardest part. When you have experienced these physical

phenomena, you will be better able to recognize them in your intermediate body

after the death of your physical body. The intermediate body is not recognized by

modern science. However, we can see that more and more Western movies began

to play on this, accepting karma, life after death, and accepting the intermediate

body.

 

Can an intermediate body experience physical phenomena (the form)? It can still

experience them, such as brightness, dullness, light, and shadow of the color

aspect of the form. In Buddhism terminology, they are referred to as “forms

arising out of the field of concepts”, which is a state of the soul conceived by

consciousness.

 

“Master Nan Huai-chin Provides A Practice Lesson on Qigong, Pranayama, Anapana and Breathing

Exercises - Part 3, Meditationexpert.com, November 14, 2003.

[Jetsun]

Read posts of Malcolm on Dharma Wheel.

 

No thanks

[RongzomFan]

Rainbow body means wherever you look you see the 5 pure lights.

[voidisyinyang]

Rainbow body means wherever you look you see the 5 pure lights.

 

take dmt

[RongzomFan]

take dmt

 

This is exactly why I usually don't post that sort of info.

[voidisyinyang]

This is exactly why I usually don't post that sort of info.

 

learning is painful.

[RongzomFan]

learning is painful.

 

[voidisyinyang]

u shud write a phd on how you became sectarian by projecting ur internalized british colonialism due to living outside india and therefore feeling conflicted.

[RongzomFan]

u shud write a phd on how you became sectarian by projecting ur internalized british colonialism due to living outside india and therefore feeling conflicted.

 

[voidisyinyang]

 

clearly inexperienced u r

[RongzomFan]

The 5 pure lights which are the ground (gzhi) of the universe are not the same as tripping out on drugs.

[voidisyinyang]

The 5 pure lights which are the ground (gzhi) of the universe are not the same as tripping out on drugs.

 

that's what she said.

[Tibetan_Ice]

“Master Nan Huai-chin Provides A Practice Lesson on Qigong, Pranayama, Anapana and Breathing

Exercises - Part 3, Meditationexpert.com, November 14, 2003.

PyLotus,

That is the same Master Nan who died from pnemonia at the age of 94, and wrote that self-incriminating letter before dying?

Actually, I think that you yourself pointed that out.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26671-master-nan-huai-chin-dead-at-94/?p=417520

 

7. You want to become a buddha after learning from me? I'm 90 already, and I still haven't seen a real Buddha or immortal yet. Stop being superstitious. All the books I wrote are only book knowledge and intellectual. Don't get tricked by those books. Lwen Yu Summary is my main effort. There are many places to learn Zen. Go over there to meditate. I've never promoted Buddhism. When I did have Zen classes, those were just organized by colleges, and the people were screened vigorously. We just did some research together. Afterwards, everyone still had to go back to live normal lives, to rub against the difficulties of life to strengthen their heart, and to improve their habits. Everyone must walk their own paths.

You want help from other people? Help yourself! If you really believe in cause and effect, start by using proper motivation and personal inspection is the intelligent way to begin. This is cultivation's heart. Your eyes are always looking outward, blaming heaven and earth, relying on gurus and saints and teachers to worship. This is self-deception and playing a joke on the world.

 

 

So how can you believe anything M Nan says, let alone use his faulty understanding of what he believes is a rainbow body?

What M Nan has described in your quote is just playing with aura. It is similar to using ectosplasm to become invisible and such. It has nothing to do with Rainbow Body. Perhaps that is why M Nan never achieved Rainbow Body?

He seems to have died an old and bitter man. Why would anyone follow his teachings or give him any credence?

 

Seems to me you are trolling.

 

If you were the least bit sincere, you would learn about Rainbow Body yourself, instead of presenting a half-baked interpretation from an insincere unacomplished teacher.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

According to wiki only two people (Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra) in history have attained the rainbow body before death

 

 

Hi Jetsun,

Sometimes the Wiki isn't such a good source of all the information that is out there.

The book called "Heart Essence of the Khandro" is about 30 women who achieved Rainbow body and went on to teach their students. They all had magical powers, and some lived to be 130 - 160 years old.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Essence-Khandro-Yongdzin-Tenzin-Rinpoche/dp/8170262828

 

Further, the main woman, called Choza Bonmo even quit eating food, yet lived to be 160 yrs old.

 

 

 

Then all Dzogchen teachers are invalid. Even teachers who attain rainbow body, do so quite late in their life.

 

 

Tibetan_Ice, on 06 Oct 2013 - 16:01, said:

During the times when the Buddhists attacked the Bon, part of the way that the Bon preserved their teachings was by changing the terminology in written doctrines to Hindu Buddhist terms, to make the Bon teachings look like they were Buddhist teachings.

 

 

 

I don't know what you are talking about

 

Alwaysoff,

I'm talking about the war between the Buddhist and the Bon in the eighth century.

 

 

 

This is why some Bon termas were created!!! and why you find erroneous Indian Buddhist terminology in Bon writings.

 

 

For the rest of you doubters.. (not that you should believe what you read on a forum or in a book, but.. )

 

 

Here are the three types of Rainbow Bodies according to Bon:

 

 

 

The text that is missing is "There are three main types of Rainbow Body. The highest level is called Tib 'ja' lus 'pho ba chen po' - the Rainbow Body of the Great Transfer. At this".. then continue reading the notes on the copied page..

 

 

Does anyone think that Yongdzin Lopon Tenzin Namdak was lying?

 

Edited October 7, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[RongzomFan]

Bon only arose in the late 14 century, as weird branch of Buddhism.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=La1CWinaDR4C&pg=PA99&dq=Tibet+Sam+van+schaik+In,+fact+the+Bonpo+religion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JpQWUeW-No2v0AHL94H4Bg&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Tibet%20Sam%20van%20schaik%20In%2C%20fact%20the%20Bonpo%20religion&f=false

 

 

What you TI are referencing is fictitious terma history, not actual history.

Its the same when Buddhists view Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra as historical figures, when they aren't.

Edited October 7, 2013 by alwayson

[ralis]

Bon only arose in the late 14 century, as weird branch of Buddhism.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=La1CWinaDR4C&pg=PA99&dq=Tibet+Sam+van+schaik+In,+fact+the+Bonpo+religion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JpQWUeW-No2v0AHL94H4Bg&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Tibet%20Sam%20van%20schaik%20In%2C%20fact%20the%20Bonpo%20religion&f=false

 

 

What you TI are referencing is fictitious terma history, not actual history.

 

Its the same when Buddhists view Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra as historical figures, when they aren't.

 

If the above two are not historical figures, then their existence is in question. After all much writing is attributed to both figures.