Gospel of Thomas

[Michael Sternbach]

Maybe our concepts/context of perfection are just different. Percieving something as "imperfect" is based on some atrachment, issue or fear. Let go of the atfacments and then things are not good or bad; hence everything is just fine/perfect as it flows. I don't quite get your lack of future change/evolution as a requirement for perfection.

  

 

Okay, so your view coincides with the part of my previous post, that I have highlighted here.

 

Sometimes you have got to work through them before you can let them go.

 

Perfection implies a state beyond which there is no further evolution. There is no perfection. Unless you consider everything perfect the way it is.

[Mark Foote]

You may notice that the OP quote has become big and green.  This is so people reading the thread can easily see which section we are discussing.  I can't create lots of threads like the TTC section so I will just post a new part for discussion when it seems everyone has had a chance to comment.  Once I've posted a new big green bit there's nothing to stop people commenting on the previous one(s) but would be better to cite it.

 

Still struggling with ruling the All ... as All means absolute to me ... and I don't see how you can rule it (rule in it possibly) especially as 'rule' has the connotation of 'provide a standard or measure for things ... or at least it does in my mind. 

 

Just reading this thread, still on page 2, and hope you will all forgive me for late arrival.

 

On "rule the All", I'm thinking it's similar to turning the world instead of being turned by the world.  Where that comes from, I'm not sure, but I think it's Eastern.

 

(Back to page 2...)

[Mark Foote]

3)   Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is

in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they

say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and

you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living

Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty

and it is you who are that poverty."

 

 

Can't speak to birds and fish; maybe as Apech suggested, reason and emotion, or simply mind and body. 

 

Inside and outside; curious to me that Gautama the Buddha spoke of deliverances, in the first of which forms were perceived internally and externally, and in the second of which forms were only perceived externally. 

 

I am unwinding the teachings based on a correspondence between meditative states, or states of enfoldment, and patterns of coordination in the senses involved in the experience of self, namely equalibrioception, proprioception, graviception, and oculoception.

 

Equalibrioception sustains pressure in the abdominal cavity that is essential to posture and carriage, and proprioception/graviception supports the posture/carriage realized; oculoception can continue or reset the location of equalibrioception.   

 

The key is the cessation of volition in activity, whereby the necessity of posture or carriage is simultaneously sustained and supported, particularly in the movement of breath.  When volition ceases with regard to the movement of breath, the coordination necessary to sustain and support posture takes place involuntarily.  This is child's play, as simple as falling asleep or waking up, but increasingly difficult as the mind is perceived as something other than simply one of the senses.

 

It's a curious sensation, when contact in any sense supports the posture realized.  That to me is the meaning of "(the Kingdom) is outside of you"; likewise when contact is particularly within, in the sense of equalibrium and proprioception/graviception ("the Kingdom is inside of you"), given the relinquishment of volition. 

 

I hope to return to pick up this thread, and hope everyone forgives the comments out of order.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Mark Foote

[Jonesboy]

This next one is a little more difficult.

 

 

35. Jesus said, "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force without tying his hands. Then one can loot his house."

 

.

Looking at this from the perspective of working with others in a transmission based perspective.

 

What I have found is that one thing that is required is for someone to be open to the experience. If they are not "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force". If one is open or subdued the ego mind or "tying his hands". Then one is able to help one let go of there issues, the "things" they think they need to be happy, obstructions or the loot within ones house.

[Mark Foote]

11)  Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above

it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will

not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it

what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you

do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you

become two, what will you do?"

 

In this verse, I really like how well the two questions that Jesus asks go together...

 

"When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do?" ... "But when you become two, what will you do?"

 

What happens in the light, and when does one realize that they are "two"?

 

To me, the big fish is the experience of cessation; Gautama catalogs meditative states by cessation in at least one sermon, yet the principal cessations are habitual activity in speech, in inhalation and exhalation, and in perception and sensation. 

 

Gautama speaks of a happiness inherent in these states, and to me this is the fire cast on the world, to know or to see that a person can persist in a happiness that is apart from the pleasures of the senses.

 

I like the quote from John about the seed that dies, to become the grain; I think there's an echo of that in the bit about what is dead and what is alive.  Yuanwu spoke of how one should "bite through now", become as one who has died the noble death; "when the breath is cut off you return to life"; so he said.  The cessation of habitual activity in inhalation and exhalation through the surrender of action--sometimes the surrender becomes heavy-handed, a suppression and a suffocation, before we awake to the senses that make activity automatic in the movement of breath, before we return to life.

 

The two questions, very koan like, reflecting the secret that there is nothing to be done.  To realize action in the absence of conscious volition, it's necessary to give up action, but it can't be done deliberately; magic. 

[Mark Foote]

18)  The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."

     Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that

you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the

end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning;

he will know the end and will not experience death."

 

To me, this is an interesting one.  It seems to beg the question of "what is the beginning" that is being described.  Any thoughts?

 

To realize the cessation of habitual activity in inhalation and exhalation, is to relinquish the action that Gautama described as "first there is deliberate thought, then action" with regard to the body.  The action that takes place without thought deliberate, that's a surprise, it comes from the place that's the beginning and the end. 

 

The notion of place is echoed in Dogen, where he says, "when you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point." 

[Mark Foote]

 

19)  Jesus said, "Blessed is he who came into being before he

came into being. If you become My disciples and listen to My

words, these stones will minister to you. For there are five

trees for you in Paradise which remain undisturbed summer and

winter and whose leaves do not fall. Whoever becomes acquainted

with them will not experience death."

 

On stones that minister, we have (perhaps) Dogen:

 

"When we let go of our minds and cast aside our views and understandings the Way will be actualized. One sage clarified True Mind (Reality) when he saw peach blossoms and another realized the Way when he heard the sound of tile hitting a bamboo. They attained the way through their bodies. Therefore, when we completely cast aside our thoughts and views and practice shikantaza, we will become intimate with the way… "

 

(“Shobogenzo-zuimonki”, sayings recorded by Koun Ejo, translated by Shohaku Okumura, 2-26, pg 107-108, ©2004 Sotoshu Shumucho)

 

Gautama spoke to "knowing, seeing" as it really is each sense organ, along with the sense object, the consciousness arising from contact between a sense organ and sense object, the impact of consciousness, and the feeling as a result of impact; he spoke of knowing, seeing as it really is that feeling as pleasant, painful, or neither.  He said that this kind of knowing and seeing with regard to all six senses (he included the mind) assuaged fevers of the mind and body, produced happiness in the mind and body, took care of the eight-fold path, and developed and brought to fruition the seven factors of enlightenment. 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the five trees are the five senses.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Mark Foote

[noonespecial]

Maybe our concepts/context of perfection are just different. Percieving something as "imperfect" is based on some atrachment, issue or fear. Let go of the atfacments and then things are not good or bad; hence everything is just fine/perfect as it flows. I don't quite get your lack of future change/evolution as a requirement for perfection.

 

Seeing something as imperfect is the implicit nature of binary perception - that is 'comparison'. When you start talking about attachment I belive it muddies the clear waters of the western traditions, and imho the gospel of thomas is inherently a Hermetic document, that is, it's primary 'concern' is the destruction of binary perception into unity - yet the binary state is not imperfect, it is necessary, attachment has little to do with it.

[Mark Foote]

 

22)  Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to His disciples,

"These infants being suckled are like those who enter the

Kingdom."

     They said to Him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the

Kingdom?"

     Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you

make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside,

and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the

female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the

female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye,

and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and

a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter [the

Kingdom]."

 

 

I have written about this passage from the Gospel of Thomas a lot.  I think we've touched on the inside and outside, so I'll lay that aside for now.  Regarding above and below, Gautama gave this recipe for cultivating psychic power:

 

So he abides fully conscious of what is behind and what is in front.

As (he is conscious of what is) in front, so behind: as behind, so in front;

as below, so above: as above, so below: 

as by day, so by night: as by night, so by day.

Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy.

 

(Sanyutta-Nikaya, text V 263, Pali Text Society volume 5 pg 235, ©Pali Text Society- more on this here)

 

Gautama didn't really elaborate on the meaning of "before" and "behind".  With regard to "as below, so above; as above, so below", he said that this referred to regarding each part of the body as it really is, from the soles of the feet to the crown of the head and from the crown of the head to the soles of the feet.

 

On the male and the female, let me introduce some of my writing; here's a description of the cessation of the third of the initial meditative states, "the cessation of ease apart from equanimity":

 

 

"The cessation of "ease apart from equanimity" that marks the third meditative state points to a strenuousness of the posture. Involuntary reciprocal activity in the muscles associated with the major ligaments of the body, such as those that connect the sacrum to the pelvis and the pelvis to the hips, only comes about because the ligaments and fascia are stretched to a point where they themselves generate the impulses necessary to contract the muscles for their resile. The induction of reciprocal, ongoing involuntary activity in the major muscle groups requires stretch that remains on the border of the generation of such impulses in the associated ligaments and fascia. Because of the need for resile that is felt at the level of stretch necessary to the third meditative state, ease does not exist apart from equanimity."

 

 

And now a bit that I hope pertains to "make the male and the female one":

 

"It happens that the stretch and resile of ligaments in the lower abdomen (paralleling the stretch and resile of the fascia behind the sacrum) can sometimes focus at or immediately above the pubic region. Gracovetsky, Farfan, and Lamay proposed a mechanism of posture whereby, with the right alignment of the spine and the right flatness of the lumbar curve, the lumbodorsal fascial sheet could be displaced (they did not say by what means); such a displacement, they calculated, would increase the load-bearing role of the fascia of the lower back, and decrease the load on the annuluses of the spine. Perhaps in a bent-leg posture, there comes a moment when the initiation of such support through the displacement of the fascia of the lower back is necessary, and the distinction of the senses allows pressure in the fluid ball to complete what the extensors behind the sacrum initiate."

 

If that seems far-fetched, there's this, from Cheng Man-Ch'ing's "Thirteen Chapters":

 

"...First we isolate the most vital portion of the sexual energy and the mind's fire, and heat them together with the ch'i in the tan-t'ien. Then we stir it up and set it in motion, causing the sexual energy to be converted into heat which passes through the wei-lu (tailbone) up the spine, reaching the crown of the head and spreading out to the four limbs."

 

More from my writing, about the above:

 

"Cheng mentioned that the ch'i must be allowed to overflow the tan-t'ien and pass through the tailbone without the use of force (in fact, he goes so far as to advise his students to seek out a teacher, to avoid any harm that they might do themselves in this regard). I would say Cheng is advising that the displacement of the lumbodorsal fascial sheet must be achieved only by reciprocal activity generated by the stretch of ligaments, and will occur as a matter of course in a bent-knee posture through the experience of equalibrioception, proprioception, and graviception, provided the movement of the diaphragm is free (as is necessary to experience "the whole (breath-)body", inhaling and exhaling). In order for the movement of the diaphragm to be free, the activity generated by ligaments and fascia throughout the body must be relaxed."

 

Here's the last part of the quote we're addressing, from another source:

 

“...when you make eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place of a foot, (and) an image in the place of an image, then shall you enter [the Kingdom].”

 

("The Gospel According to Thomas", coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah 'Abd Al Masih, pg 18-19 log. 22, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

And more from my writing, following on from D. L. Bartilink's assertion that there is always some pressure in the "fluid ball" of the abdomen in support of posture, produced by involuntary activity in the abdominals (not by the rectus or the diaphragm):

 

"To the extent that the necessity for pressure in the “fluid ball” of the abdomen engenders experience of equalibrioception, graviception, and proprioception, to that extent some feeling for the posture supported by the distinction of the senses is gained as the pressure is sustained."

 

I continued:

 

"The ‘feeling for the posture supported by the distinction of the senses’ allows me to make an eye in the place of an eye, a hand in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place of a foot. This morning I asked myself, does feeling for the posture supported by the distinction of the senses allow me to make an image in the place of an image? If I take the word ‘image’ to mean the location of my awareness, the question becomes: does feeling for the posture supported by the distinction of the senses allow me to locate my awareness in the place of the location of my awareness?"

 

Equalibrioception I feel is closely related to pressure sustained in the "fluid ball", while proprioception and graviception are intimate with the support of posture and carriage provided by the "fluid ball". 

 

My conclusion is this:

 

"It’s possible to experience support from the “fluid ball” exactly as a sensation or perception that sustains the “fluid ball” takes place. In fact, I would say such a simultaneity is a normal part of everyday life, and underlies any induction of concentration. The simultaneity feeds on itself when the circumstances are appropriate, and exercises in the distinction of the senses and the recall of signs are really only intended to allow an openness to such a simultaneity."

 

Lately I seem to have to remind myself that the resile of ligaments (such as between the sacrum and the pelvis) and the rhythm of the senses (including the mind) can be conducive to the cessation of habitual activity, particularly with regard to inhalation and exhalation.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Mark Foote

[Jeff]

Seeing something as imperfect is the implicit nature of binary perception - that is 'comparison'. When you start talking about attachment I belive it muddies the clear waters of the western traditions, and imho the gospel of thomas is inherently a Hermetic document, that is, it's primary 'concern' is the destruction of binary perception into unity - yet the binary state is not imperfect, it is necessary, attachment has little to do with it.

 

 

I guess that I would just have to disagree with it being primarily a Hermetic document.   Also, the GOT is not really describing "unity", as can be found in the following verse...

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

 

The realization of "motion and rest" is beyond the concept of unity.

[noonespecial]

I guess that I would just have to disagree with it being primarily a Hermetic document.   Also, the GOT is not really describing "unity", as can be found in the following verse...

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

 

The realization of "motion and rest" is beyond the concept of unity.

 

Motion and Rest as a pair are symbolic of a binary system, so then what does that say about the Nature of the Living Father in comparison to the Light? 

 

Edit: Additionally, and this is solely my opinion...is that the GOT is closer to what can be considered an original Hermetic document than the actual Corpus Hermeticum. Equally so, it is not Gnostic in the sense of the other Nag Hammadi documents, nor is it quite there with the Canonical Gosples, but falls somewhere in between.

Edited July 7, 2016 by noonespecial

[Jeff]

Motion and Rest as a pair are symbolic of a binary system, so then what does that say about the Nature of the Living Father in comparison to the Light? 

 

Edit: Additionally, and this is solely my opinion...is that the GOT is closer to what can be considered an original Hermetic document than the actual Corpus Hermeticum. Equally so, it is not Gnostic in the sense of the other Nag Hammadi documents, nor is it quite there with the Canonical Gosples, but falls somewhere in between.

Rather than binary, the text is describing more motion = rest with the father. One has realized that they are really the same. The "light" would be more like your concept of unity. But as the text describes, the father is the "place" where the light came into being and established itself. Similar to the Tao Te Ching, where the one emerges from the Dao and then becomes two. The two then can give birth to 10,000 things.

[noonespecial]

Rather than binary, the text is describing more motion = rest with the father. One has realized that they are really the same. The "light" would be more like your concept of unity. But as the text describes, the father is the "place" where the light came into being and established itself. Similar to the Tao Te Ching, where the one emerges from the Dao and then becomes two. The two then can give birth to 10,000 things.

 

Hi Jeff, Interesting theory, can you point out anywhere else in the text that confirms that motion = rest, and not as an opposite (to be resolved) without resorting to oriental philosophy? And obviously I see the bit about the Father conforming to the more Western notions of the three fold fire. TBHI'm not really into speculation over what creation theories are being put forth here but what the practical, initiatory application of the text is. Also when I use the word Unity in the context of western texts, it is not to be confused with 'oneness' - ie. multiple parts can be 'unified' that is, working properly.

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff, Interesting theory, can you point out anywhere else in the text that confirms that motion = rest, and not as an opposite (to be resolved) without resorting to oriental philosophy? And obviously I see the bit about the Father conforming to the more Western notions of the three fold fire. TBHI'm not really into speculation over what creation theories are being put forth here but what the practical, initiatory application of the text is. Also when I use the word Unity in the context of western texts, it is not to be confused with 'oneness' - ie. multiple parts can be 'unified' that is, working properly.

Hi Noonespecial,

 

Sorry, no where other than in verse 50 are the concepts of motion and rest introduced as descriptors related to the father. Guess we may just have to agree to disagree.

 

Best,

Jeff

[noonespecial]

Hi Noonespecial,

 

Sorry, no where other than in verse 50 are the concepts of motion and rest introduced as descriptors related to the father. Guess we may just have to agree to disagree.

 

Best,

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff, Yeah, agree to disagree, all good.  Its just when I look at this text I see a really simple concept being put forth that does not require unneeded clutter from the Far East to make sense. Simply because we can trace this tradition (with slight variations here and there) all the way from Egypt (the Ka and Ba), to Sumeria, on to the Gnostics, Chrisitans, the Neo-Platonists, through the Sufis, the Cathars, the Templars, to the Alchemists, etc. all the way up to Jung, who seemingly stumbled upon it. That is Illumination or God is found and contained in the the reconciliation of the conscious and unconscious halves of the Microcosmic Mind. Which when purified and conjoined is able to reintegrate it's new found individuality into the Macrocosmic Mind, which also happens to be trifold. And the way to achieve this is to turn the thoughts and senses inward through a tripartite initiatory process - not by seeking Samadhi or Nirvana but through symbols, ie The Language of the Birds. IMO this is the tradition wherein the keys to understanding GOT are found, not in taosim, buddhism or hinduism. 

best'

NOS

Edited July 8, 2016 by noonespecial

[Aetherous]

Motion and rest...seems to me to refer back to Genesis. God moved over the waters, and on the 7th day rested.

I know...not mystical and fun.

[Mark Foote]

28)  Jesus said, "I took my place in the midst of the world, and

I appeared to them in the flesh. I found all of them intoxicated;

I found none of them thirsty. And My soul became afflicted for

the sons of men, because they are blind in their hearts and do

not have sight; for empty they came into the world, and empty too

they seek to leave the world. But for the moment they are

intoxicated. When they shake off their wine, then they will

repent."

 

 

I want to speak to "empty they came into the world, and empty too they seek to leave the world".  I do, I do seek to leave the world empty! 

 

I'm thinking the intoxication prevents the sons of men from seeing that empty is how they seek to leave the world.   As I've mentioned, Gautama characterized the meditative states by the cessations associated with them, and "beholding cessation, breathing in; beholding cessation, breathing out" was a part of his way of living.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

 

 

29)  Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit,

it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the

body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this

great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

 

"When we let go of our minds and cast aside our views and understandings the Way will be actualized. One sage clarified True Mind (Reality) when he saw peach blossoms and another realized the Way when he heard the sound of tile hitting a bamboo. They attained the way through their bodies. Therefore, when we completely cast aside our thoughts and views and practice shikantaza, we will become intimate with the way… "

 

(“Shobogenzo-zuimonki”, sayings recorded by Koun Ejo, translated by Shohaku Okumura, 2-26, pg 107-108, ©2004 Sotoshu Shumucho)

 

 

This passage from Dogen is only slightly out of context, but I've always been struck by the line:  "They attained the way through their bodies". 

 

The "great wealth" is something spiritual, presumably, and the poverty would seem to be the physical body. 

 

Gautama described the meditative states in detail, and the causal conditioning that was his insight, but he turned around to say that anyone knowing, seeing the things of the senses as they really are will develop and bring to fruition the factors of enlightenment.  That to me is the spirit coming into being because of the body, and the wonder of wonders.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

(50.) ... If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

 

Love this, and like the one about "two gods or one", can't say much about it.

 

Action that follows deliberate thought is natural enough, yet so is the cessation of habitual activity; a movement and a rest?

 

I am caught up, I think. 

Edited July 8, 2016 by Mark Foote

[noonespecial]

The "great wealth" is something spiritual, presumably, and the poverty would seem to be the physical body. 

 

And yet, if the Spirit came into existence because of the Material world it is even a greater wonder, the 'wonder of wonders' and look how 'poverty' is used in Verse 3 and who it is used in reference too.

 

Compare now with the the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Verses 1 & 2 - 

 

-------

1) Here (is) a true explanation, concerning which there can be no doubt.

2) It attests: The above (Spirit) from the below (Material), and the below (Material) from the above (Spirit) - the work of the miracle of the One.

-------

 

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/emerald.html

 

edit - add link.

Edited July 8, 2016 by noonespecial

[Michael Sternbach]

And yet, if the Spirit came into existence because of the Material world it is even a greater wonder, the 'wonder of wonders' and look how 'poverty' is used in Verse 3 and who it is used in reference too.

 

Compare now with the the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Verses 1 & 2 -

 

-------

1) Here (is) a true explanation, concerning which there can be no doubt.

2) It attests: The above (Spirit) from the below (Material), and the below (Material) from the above (Spirit) - the work of the miracle of the One.

-------[/size]

 

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/emerald.html

 

edit - add link.

Gnostic texts talk about the body as "the grave of the soul"; and how the thoughts that we have while within the body are never the same like the ones we can have without. Along the same lines, we read in Platonic writings about the water that we drink before we come into physical incarnation, which makes us forget the state we existed in before. Anamnesis or remembering our original state therefore becomes the goal of spiritual practice.

 

Such statements would mean little to me if I hadn't made some OOB experiences during lucid dreams in which I felt to be pure energy; it was awesome, just undescribable and actually hard to recall now. Feelings of bliss that I just don't have the words to describe. I conclude that those texts I mentioned must have been written by people who had made similar experiences.

 

I am looking for possibilities to feel that way while in my body. It is indeed a state of imprisonment; living on a much lower frequency, with so many restrictions. Yet, using methods of cultivation, this frequency can be raised to approach the spirit. Surely I have experienced some such exalted states in my waking state too; however imperfect they may have been by comparison, they were enough to show me the potential that resides within the physical condition.

 

While there are many levels of attainment along the cultivator's way, and many ways to get there. Some stop at transcending the physical. But I consider translating spirit into matter the highest achievement.

 

In the view of Hermetic alchemy, the whole created world is aspiring to full expression of Spirit - "turning lead into gold," as it were.

 

Thus the Emerald Tablet teaches: "The father of all perfection in the whole world is here," and: "Its force or power is entire if it be converted into earth."

 

And this is identically what Jesus in the GoT - in so many passages - speaks to.

[noonespecial]

Gnostic texts talk about the body as "the grave of the soul"; and how the thoughts that we have while within the body are never the same like the ones we can have without. Along the same lines, we read in Platonic writings about the water that we drink before we come into physical incarnation, which makes us forget the state we existed in before. Anamnesis or remembering our original state therefore becomes the goal of spiritual practice.

 

Such statements would mean little to me if I hadn't made some OOB experiences during lucid dreams in which I felt to be pure energy; it was awesome, just undescribable and actually hard to recall now. Feelings of bliss that I just don't have the words to describe. I conclude that those texts I mentioned must have been written by people who had made similar experiences.

 

I am looking for possibilities to feel that way while in my body. It is indeed a state of imprisonment; living on a much lower frequency, with so many restrictions. Yet, using methods of cultivation, this frequency can be raised to approach the spirit. Surely I have experienced some such exalted states in my waking state too; however imperfect they may have been by comparison, they were enough to show me the potential that resides within the physical condition.

 

While there are many levels of attainment along the cultivator's way, and many ways to get there. Some stop at transcending the physical. But I consider translating spirit into matter the highest achievement.

 

In the view of Hermetic alchemy, the whole created world is aspiring to full expression of Spirit - "turning lead into gold," as it were.

 

Thus the Emerald Tablet teaches: "The father of all perfection in the whole world is here," and: "Its force or power is entire if it be converted into earth."

 

And this is identically what Jesus in the GoT - in so many passages - speaks to.

 

Hi Michael, The Corpus Hermeticum says the same thing, that is, the body is the tomb of the soul, but like verse 3 in GOT speaks to, it is conditional on the person, and their understanding - that is, there is some sort of hidden value in our temporal limitation that the mundane world is not privy too, you mentioned Lead, but Lead cannot be transmuted into Gold, its like growing a tree from donkey sperm as the saying goes. So what must lead really be? Malkuth in Kether, Kether in Malkuth but in different manner. Likewise you mentioned the astral body or OOB experience, the very concept of body is dependent on the physical world, therefore the soul is an amalgamation of the interaction between spirit and matter, so the body may be its tomb but it is also its womb, the question being do we point the Soul towards Spirit for the Second Birth or towards Earth to die be buried with it's Tomb.

Edited July 8, 2016 by noonespecial

[Jeff]

The Corpus Hermeticum says the same thing, that is, the body is the tomb of the soul, but like verse 3 in GOT speaks to, it is conditional on the person, and their understanding - that is, there is some sort of hidden value in the temporal limitation, you mentioned Lead, but Lead cannot be transmuted into Gold, its like growing a tree from donkey sperm as the saying goes. So what must lead really be? Malkuth in Kether, Kether in Malkuth but in different manner.

 

The same concept from the new testement...

 

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:...

 

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:1-6, 16-21 KJV)

[noonespecial]

The same concept from the new testement...

 

You got it! 

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Michael, The Corpus Hermeticum says the same thing, that is, the body is the tomb of the soul, but like verse 3 in GOT speaks to, it is conditional on the person, and their understanding - that is, there is some sort of hidden value in our temporal limitation that the mundane world is not privy too,

 

Hi noonespecial,

 

Most of all, there is a hidden value in our temporal limitation in the the same  sense that there is value in a mountain wall for the passionate mountain climber desiring to overcome it.

 

you mentioned Lead, but Lead cannot be transmuted into Gold,

 

While this transmutation can actually be performed by master alchemists, I'm obviously using it as an analogy here. Another level of correspondence would be turning Saturn into the Sun. Saturn is commonly symbolizing Earth, matter, the body etc, while the Sun stands for Spirit.

 

its like growing a tree from donkey sperm as the saying goes.

 

That may be possible too...

 

 

So what must lead really be? Malkuth in Kether, Kether in Malkuth but in different manner.

 

Yes, I believe that to be a viable concept.

 

Likewise you mentioned the astral body or OOB experience, the very concept of body is dependent on the physical world, therefore the soul is an amalgamation of the interaction between spirit and matter, so the body may be its tomb but it is also its womb, the question being do we point the Soul towards Spirit for the Second Birth or towards Earth to die be buried with it's Tomb.

 

I don't quite agree that the concept of the body per se is dependent on the physical world. The subtle bodies resemble the physical body in certain manners, and the physical body is built according to the matrix provided by the etheric body. It can even be said that the archetypal blueprint for our physical structure exists in the noetic realm.

 

However, even though the subtle bodies precede the physical body, I agree that the former can be activated from "below", so to speak. This may indeed lead to some kind of spiritual and, in very rare cases, even physical immortality. I also regard my aforementioned OOB experiences partially as a result of prior practice.