Chapter 1, Section 3 Concepts

[Marblehead]

Very nice comments Y'all!

[Marblehead]

Very nice comments Y'all!

Don't stop just because I gave Y'all a compliment!

[rene]

is section 3 done? lead, fearless leader, lead.

[Marblehead]

is section 3 done? lead, fearless leader, lead.

I suppose it is since no one is saying anything else.

 

I'll do 4 some time this afternoon.

[dawei]

I am not sure if this was mentioned but Legge's opening translation is not common:

 

IN THE questions put by Tang [1] to Ki we have similar statements: 'In the bare and barren north there is the dark and vat ocean, – the Pool of Heaven. In it there is a fish, several thousand li in breadth, while no one knows its length. Its name is the Kun. There is (also) a bird named the Peng;

 

In most translations, Kun transforms to Peng and flies off...

 

Derek Lin has some interesting comments:

 

http://www.taoism.net/living/2000/200011.htm

 

 

I think there are some interesting connections to LZ but as there are LZ naysayers who want to keep LZ out of ZZ, I'll stop here.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, but Legge's translation was one of the first, if not the first, translation of the Chuang Tzu into English so I think we need to cut him a little slack.

 

But yes, in other translations the Kun always transforms into the Peng. I think that this is a key concept (transformation) in Chuang Tzu's philosophy.

[rene]

 

IN THE questions put by Tang [1] to Ki we have similar statements: 'In the bare and barren north there is the dark and vat ocean, – the Pool of

I think there are some interesting connections to LZ but as there are LZ naysayers who want to keep LZ out of ZZ, I'll stop here.

 

Who? I must have missed that, and why would they want to??

 

To me, Zz should have had more Lz and less Zz in Zz.

 

 

 

Don't bother, MH. I can already hear your hehehe from here. (-:

[ChiDragon]

 

But yes, in other translations the Kun always transforms into the Peng. I think that this is a key concept (transformation) in Chuang Tzu's philosophy.

 

That's funny....!!! Other translations: the Kun always transforms into Peng.......??? That is a key concept (transformation) in Chuang Tzu's philosophy.......???

 

IMO That was only his imagination to show his thoughts was different from the ordinary people. It was only a metaphor to indicate that Zhuang Tze himself does not want to stay in the little pond only seeing the sky above. To Zhuang Tze, a big fish is the ocean is like a small fish in a little pond. He said that was because he likes to think big and exaggerate by making a small scene into a big one.

 

I don't think that ZZ's philosophy was about transformation. The title of Chapter One is the "Free Wanderer". A free wanderer must be able to travel as free as a big bird rather than a fish in a pond with restricted moving space. Therefore, the reader must consider the main philosophy in relationship with the title of the chapter. Otherwise, it would be meaningless by having all the concentrations on the small and large imaginary creatures.

[Marblehead]

 

That's funny....!!!

Well, apparently, at this point, you and I have a difference in understanding. That's okay. Maybe our difference won't be as great later on.

[ChiDragon]

...... That's okay. Maybe our difference won't be as great later on.

 

Well, apparently it is not okay. If we don't agree this far, our difference will be much great later on. I might have to be faded out the picture completely...............

 

[Marblehead]

 

Well, apparently it is not okay. If we don't agree this far, our difference will be much great later on. I might have to be faded out the picture completely...............

 

Well, I wouldn't want you to bow out. You have much you can offer the discussion.

 

The main disagreement we have is your suggesting that the Peng story is Chuang Tzu presenting himself as the Peng, that Chuang Tzu is just blowing his own horn in order to make himself seem big and important.

 

This is an error and it will show itself to be false throughout the chapters. He is not talking about himself when he tells of the Kun and the Peng. First is the concept of transformation. Second is the different perspectives of the Peng and the Quail.

 

All Chuang Tzu wants to do is drag his tail in the mud and live a long life. That's it.

[ChiDragon]

Well, when I've spoken of ZZ himself, it simply means he can be imagining himself or anyone could be a free wanderer. It was an advice for all really.

[Marblehead]

Well, when I've spoken of ZZ himself, it simply means he can be imagining himself or anyone could be a free wanderer. It was an advice for all really.

See? Sometimes you and I don't understand each other on first exchange. Then we bicker and fuss and finally come to an agreement even if it is not a complete one and even if it is that we agree to disagree.

 

But if we don't talk about it there will never be an understanding.

 

Yes, I think it is fair to say that he considers himself a free wanderer. An Anarchist. Why was the Peng flying high and free? Why did the Kun first have to transform?

[Stosh]

If you-one can

Accept that more than one reading is probably intended correct..

then you havent earned a conflict , you've overcome one,

and yet you still get to have your favorite view

No blood - no foul

Since you're both wrong or right since the actual issue is relative perspective.

The peng or quail each see from their own perspective and

neither really opposes or exceeds the other

they are both reasonable from their own point of view .

If you dont accept my point , you missed the instruction altogether.

IMO

Edited August 22, 2013 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

 

........ Why was the Peng flying high and free? Why did the Kun first have to transform?

 

Haven't I said enough for the why's......??? Are these your questions again or just exclamation......???

 

 

@Stosh......

Welcome back. Love to hear your eloquent spoken words....!!!

 

 

[Marblehead]

 

Haven't I said enough for the why's......??? Are these your questions again or just exclamation......???

 

 

Just my exclamations. I love to talk. You know that.

[Stosh]

The peng has an illusion , it thinks it is something different ,

and that it has somewhere to go. It thinks that the obstacles are high

and that it is wonderful to accomplish so much.

He takes a long path and looks marvelous doing it, if you know where to look.

 

The quail thinks the tree is better than where he is , and sees no reason to go to the

ends of the earth. A couch potato is he. Lowering the bar to be assured and easy,

And so < the quail bypasses all the bullshit that the peng is dealing with ,

He soars right over and past it all ! and looks amazing doing it , if you know what to look for.

 

The quail flies a thousand li

The peng wallows as a kun

 

by unresistance I drift the faster peaceful waves,

and softly nod unconcerned,

the quiet stars beckon to dreams.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Well Stosh, that's a different way of looking at the story. I'm not saying you are wrong but your take sure the hell is different.

[Stosh]

Well Stosh, that's a different way of looking at the story. I'm not saying you are wrong but your take sure the hell is different.

Perhaps, but I wouldnt have said that myself , like in the disclaimer,

"only the names have been changed to protect the innocent"

Think in terms of 'infinite regression'.

[Marblehead]

"only the names have been changed to protect the innocent"

When were you ever innocent?

[Stosh]

When were you ever innocent?

Since I was born , the rest is everyone elses fault.

[Stosh]

Since I was born , the rest is everyone elses fault.

Besides , If I was the innocent in the disclaimer ,, I could hide behind silence.

No, the innocent are those who dont understand, but wish to keep their structures intact.

Its the only reason why the originals could have chosen to extra cryptic

with the difficult to accept thoughts, they proposed.

If they wanted to ,they could have obviated 2000 years of argument.

I somewhat disagree as of yet about that , so I am willing to lay the thing out

and I expect , ...that now done one step further,

anyone might write the next stanza and finish off the poem.

if they wanted to.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

if they wanted to.

Sure, if they wanted to.

[dawei]

IT is titled 'Free Wanderer' because of the freedom afforded from transforming beyond our limited perceptions; this limitation causes a dependency, if you will, on our limits. It is what [narrowly through our perceptions] defines us, or better what gives us our own idea of identity.

 

To transform is to break the limit; to get beyond the perceptions; to get beyond the 'who I am now' as I perceive it now.

 

Transformation is the realization of freedom; what we perceive we are is not what we are.

[Stosh]

Well there are transfomations , but the idea

that one is better off bigger or faster king or peon

Is a subjective illusion we have already seen

Explained in ttc..it is a view, that a glimpse of

Non-duality ,is supposed to dispel, or an understanding

which approaches said removal of illusions.

It is another example of the irony I employed

(that all the opinions vere equally valid but my own more so)

Edited August 24, 2013 by Stosh