Resting the mind in its natural state

[Simple_Jack]

 

Threads, like this one, is the reason why Dzogchen (and Mahamudra) requires transmission [instruction/clarification] from a guru.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

I would like to make the point that all the rules, regulations, samayas etc. are divine rules from the primordial termas themselves.

Edited September 4, 2013 by alwayson

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Well, fortunately TI has already presented plenty of very clear quotes from masters like Padmasambhava, and also Alan Wallace who has learnt from people like the Dalai Lama, Gyatrul Rinpoche, etc and has transmission, stating that it's necessary to achieve shamatha with clear reasoning.

 

Complaining that TI himself lacks transmission and a guru is ignoring the points he's quoting from people who more than meet that criteria.

 

Look at the quotes from Padmasambhava, Alan Wallace, etc... and instead of jumping on statements that shamatha by itself isn't enough as proof that it isn't needed at all when the quote as a whole clearly states it is indispensable but must be followed by other practices, instead of making ad hominems, instead of all this ridiculous patronising childish shit... discuss like grown ups, and read the quotes in full, open to changing your mind, and make a considered response, without the kind of abrasive mocking tone that the Buddha would have came down on like a ton of bricks.

[Simple_Jack]

Well, fortunately TI has already presented plenty of very clear quotes from masters like Padmasambhava, and also Alan Wallace who has learnt from people like the Dalai Lama, Gyatrul Rinpoche, etc and has transmission, stating that it's necessary to achieve shamatha with clear reasoning.

 

Complaining that TI himself lacks transmission and a guru is ignoring the points he's quoting from people who more than meet that criteria.

 

Look at the quotes from Padmasambhava, Alan Wallace, etc... and instead of jumping on statements that shamatha by itself isn't enough as proof that it isn't needed at all when the quote as a whole clearly states it is indispensable but must be followed by other practices, instead of making ad hominems, instead of all this ridiculous patronising childish shit... discuss like grown ups, and read the quotes in full, open to changing your mind, and make a considered response, without the kind of abrasive mocking tone that the Buddha would have came down on like a ton of bricks.

 

What happens is, alwayson makes a quip about something Vajrayana related, that results in a shit fest, because the people disagreeing with him aren't Vajrayana practitioners. In threads discussing Allan Wallace or whomever, maybe hes at fault because he's positing a position that is influenced by how ChNN teaches his students of the DC. If you were to study under a Dzogchen teacher other than ChNN: you would be required to start out with ngondro, before being initiated into the higher teachings of Dzogchen. In the case of this thread, we should probably differentiate between Dzogchen and the Dzogchenpa (for those that have received transmission) so as to avoid these trivial back and forth arguments.

 

The reason for the conflict with what alwayson states in multiple threads is stemming from people who have little knowledge of Vajrayana as a whole and who haven't received instruction from a guru. A Dzogchenpa isn't excluded from practicing methods from lower yanas, but it's a path based off its own methods. Dzogchen (and Mahamudra) really isn't predicated off of a graduated path of progression per se.

 

As a result of this, people who come across Alan Wallace's publicly available material, think it's a representation of Dzogchen.

 

Bump.

[Apech]

What happens is, alwayson makes a quip about something Vajrayana related, that results in a shit fest, because the people disagreeing with him aren't Vajrayana practitioners. In threads discussing Allan Wallace or whomever, maybe hes at fault because he's positing a position that is influenced by how ChNN teaches his students of the DC. If you were to study under a Dzogchen teacher other than ChNN: you would be required to start out with ngondro, before being initiated into the higher teachings of Dzogchen. In the case of this thread, we should probably differentiate between Dzogchen and the Dzogchenpa (for those that have received transmission) so as to avoid these trivial back and forth arguments.

 

 

Bump.

 

Simple_Jack,

 

I'm interested in what you say in your post in that Namkhai Norbu departs from normal practice in giving transmission without any preliminary practice (or study presumably). Have you any idea why he would do this?

 

I admit to knowing very little about Dzogchen but have found on looking around that it seems to have grown into a kind of industry with many people claiming their teachings to be Dzogchen ... that's Buddhists and non-Buddhists alike. I wonder if there isn't a risk that the teachings become corrupted to exposure to an environment of people with all sorts of fantasies about it. I would not put Alan Wallace in this category but even he in teaching shamatha basks in the glory somewhat by using the preliminaries from a Dzogchen text. Why do that I wonder? as I think it is confusing people.

[Simple_Jack]

Maybe for you. But for us, we distinguish between rigpa and sems.

 

Loppon Namdrol says:

 

1. "If you think concepts are dharmakāya, your practice is screwed before it has even begun.

 

In Ati these days, conceited elephants [claim]

the mass of discursive concepts is bodhicitta.

 

chos dbying mdzod"

 

2. "But if you want to consider your discursive thoughts to be dharmakāya, go ahead and be my guest. It's your practice and not mine."

 

Can this thread not get derailed with arguments irrelevant to the actual topic out of a minority's pathological need to make everyone else agree with them and join the one true tradition, as though they are omniscient and someone else being wrong about a little thing is the end of the friggin' world - when most of the time the other person was right anyway but used different terminology or was making a subtle point which the antagonist minority couldn't be bothered to consider, or maybe did consider but deliberately strawmanned to be an awkward trollish nuisance?

 

What happens is, alwayson makes a quip about something Vajrayana related, that results in a shit fest, because the people disagreeing with him aren't Vajrayana practitioners...

 

Which will probably continue to happen on this board because of the inevitable shit fest that will ensue when someone like alwayson will differentiate the doctrinal points of Dzogchen and Mahamudra i.e. that the nature of thoughts are dharmakaya.

 

I'm interested in what you say in your post in that Namkhai Norbu departs from normal practice in giving transmission without any preliminary practice (or study presumably). Have you any idea why he would do this?

 

There's a whole lot of material available to a person when they receive transmission and become a member of the Dzogchen Community. ChNN gives empowerments and lungs for anuyoga, Dzogchen, etc. over webcast.

[RongzomFan]

In threads discussing Allan Wallace or whomever, maybe hes at fault because he's positing a position that is influenced by how ChNN teaches his students of the DC. If you were to study under a Dzogchen teacher other than ChNN: you would be required to start out with ngondro, before being initiated into the higher teachings of Dzogchen.

 

I don't see how any of this is relevant. The issue is samatha, not ngondro.

 

So no, I'm not positing a position that is influenced by ChNN.

[Apech]

Which will probably continue to happen on this board because of the inevitable shit fest that will ensue when someone like alwayson will differentiate the doctrinal points of Dzogchen and Mahamudra i.e. that the nature of thoughts are dharmakaya.

 

 

There's a whole lot of material available to a person when they receive transmission and become a member of the Dzogchen Community. ChNN gives empowerments and lungs for anuyoga, Dzogchen, etc. over webcast.

 

Well having material available over the internet or whatever is not really the same as preliminary practice or even proper study ... so that seems odd to me ... I am still baffled why this should happen in this way.

[RongzomFan]

I wonder if there isn't a risk that the teachings become corrupted to exposure to an environment of people with all sorts of fantasies about it.

 

That's why there is samaya.

[Apech]

That's why there is samaya.

 

 

It seems to me that samaya are not being upheld then.

[C T]

Well having material available over the internet or whatever is not really the same as preliminary practice or even proper study ... so that seems odd to me ... I am still baffled why this should happen in this way.

i found SJ's reply to your question strange. Like, totally out of sync.

[RongzomFan]

It seems to me that samaya are not being upheld then.

 

I don't bring up Dzogchen. I don't even like using the word.

[C T]

It seems to me that samaya are not being upheld then.

Thats pretty obvious.

[Simple_Jack]

I don't see how any of this is relevant. The issue is samatha, not ngondro.

 

So no, I'm not positing a position that is influenced by ChNN.

 

Actually, you're right. This wouldn't be such an issue if people understood that Dzogchen really isn't a gradual path in itself.

 

Well having material available over the internet or whatever is not really the same as preliminary practice or even proper study ...

 

There's SMS.

[Apech]

Actually, you're right. This wouldn't be such an issue if people understood that Dzogchen really isn't a gradual path in itself.

 

 

There's SMS.

 

yep ...

[C T]

Yup, Dzogchen is not a gradual path. It just takes a lifetime of grounding the view thru daily practice. Not gradual at all. Non.

[Simple_Jack]

Forget it.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

Everyone is losing me. I'm not following.

[Creation]

nvm

Edited September 5, 2013 by Creation

[C T]

Why do you keep deleting good posts with valid questions, sir?

[Creation]

Because blabbing about Dzogchen on the internet is something I want to be very very careful about. Thanks for asking though

 

 

I'll try to make a post that I'll be comfortable leaving up.

 

I am curious about the progression taught to Dzogchenpas by teachers other than Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche (C T I have you in mind here especially). Tantric prelims? 2-Stage Higher Tantra practice? Dzogchen/Mahamudra methods of Shamatha/Vipashyana? Dzogchen mennagde prelims (rushens, semdizins, etc.)?

 

And Apech, would you elaborate on why you are baffled that Namkhai Norbu teaches in the way he does? I know it's not the traditional way, but what other reasons do you have in mind?

Edited September 5, 2013 by Creation

[RongzomFan]

And Apech, would you elaborate on why you are baffled that Namkhai Norbu teaches in the way he does? I know it's not the traditional way, but what other reasons do you have in mind?

 

ChNN has the webcast, which other teachers adopted, and drops ngondro.

 

But other than that ChNN is traditional.

 

Moreover, the argument is that ngondro is an addition that occurred to Dzogchen at a later point.

 

So ChNN is even more traditional than everyone else.

[Apech]

<....> And Apech, would you elaborate on why you are baffled that Namkhai Norbu teaches in the way he does? I know it's not the traditional way, but what other reasons do you have in mind?

 

Always happy to expound on my thoughts (which is all they are by the way - Namkhai Norbu is a master of his path and I am a no-body).

 

BUT the way I am being taught Karma Kagyu Buddhism is so very different. The transmissions and empowerments rely on a personal connection between you and the lama. This is not the usual misrepresentation of student/lacky and lama/god like being - but more one of accumulated confidence built on recognising the the lama is truly someone in whom the dharma is embodied - which creates a kind of feeling of supreme value and eventually love (in a high sense). The teachings are delivered in a controlled way building up the view and allowing meditation to achieve some level of maturity. You are free to come and go and everything is very affirmative regarding what you need to do but is quite strict in terms of what is dharma and what is not dharma. Insight and transmission (as in nature of the mind) occur as a result of the maturation of the practice.

 

So you can see why I am perplexed over the idea to delivering mass transmission over the internet. I'm not saying it's wrong or impossible but I am struggling to understand why any advanced master would think it the right thing to do.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Apech

[steve]

So you can see why I am perplexed over the idea to delivering mass transmission over the internet. I'm not saying it's wrong or impossible but I am struggling to understand why any advanced master would think it the right thing to do.

 

Some masters have expressed the opinion that the precious teachings they steward are at risk for degrading and ultimately dying out, particularly in light of what happened and is ongoing in Tibet (namely Tenzin Wangyal, Khenpo Gangshar, and Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche). I've also read that some are of the opinion that the modern world today is in desperate need of the teachings and that mass communication is a satisfactory vehicle to reach as many people as possible whose karma has brought them to a place where they may receive the teachings (TWR). Clearly, those who do mass transmissions, such as Namkhai Norbu and Tenzin Wangyal, must believe that they are able to be effective with this approach.

 

A few quotes from Namkhai Norbu that give clues, perhaps:

From his website - “When I left Tibet and settled in the West, I realised that the Dzogchen Teaching was a vast body of knowledge that could help us live our condition, as human beings, better, beyond any cultural context, allowing for a “natural” spiritual and social evolution.”

In "Dzogchen Teachings" there are also some clues in the Introduction that I think point to his motivation and teaching approach. You can read some of the intro here.

 

There are probably other reasons. Hopefully others have deeper insight.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Back to topic, regardless of the nasty comments, hypocritical statements and attempts to discredit Alan Wallace as a Dzogchen teacher.

 

I was browsing the book called "Perfect Clarity" and I found these instructions by Mipham Rinpoche.

 

Who is Mipham Rinpoche?

 

MIPHAM RINPOCHE (1846– 1912) A student of Jamgon Kongtrul, Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, and Paltrul Rinpoche. Blessed by Manjushri, he became one of the greatest scholars of his time. His collected works fill more than thirty volumes. His chief disciple was Shechen Gyaltsab Pema Namgyal.

Kunsang, Erik Pema (2012-10-16). Perfect Clarity: A Tibetan Buddhist Anthology of Mahamudra and Dzogchen (p. 188). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

 

 

I found this section which is very interesting. Not only does it contain pointing out instructions but it specifically defines and uses the term "shamatha" and says:

 

Attaining this stability, in which the shamatha of primordially abiding in the natural state and the vipashyana of natural luminosity are basically indivisible, is the dawn of self-existing wakefulness, the realization of dzogchen.

 

 

The text is so good that we will keep it within context, just so we don't all get confused as seems to be the case quite often here..

 

 

THE LAMP THAT DISPELS DARKNESS

 

An Instruction that Points Directly to the Nature of Mind in the Tradition of the Old Realized Ones

 

Mipham Rinpoche

 

Homage to the guru and Manjushri Jnanasattva.

 

Without having to study, reflect, and train extensively, But by maintaining mind-essence through the tradition of oral instruction, An ordinary town yogi can, with minor hardship, arrive at the vidyadhara level; This is the power of the profound path.

 

When your attention is allowed to settle naturally without thinking of anything and you maintain constant mindfulness in that state, you experience a neutral and indifferent state of mind that is vacant and blank. As long as an insight of decisive knowing is not present, this is exactly what masters call unknowing (ma rigpa). You cannot define it with phrases like “it’s like this” or “this is it”— so such a state of mind is also called undecided (lungmaten). And, unable to say where you remain or what you are thinking of, this state is labeled common indifference (tharnal tang-nyom). In fact, you have slipped into the ordinary common state of the all-ground.

 

Nonconceptual wakefulness should be developed through this method of settling. However, as it lacks a wakefulness that knows your own nature, it is not the main meditation training.

 

This is what the “Aspiration of Samantabhadra” says:

 

The vacant state of not thinking of anything

Is itself the cause of ignorance and confusion.

 

Since your mind does experience this vacant state, which lacks both thought and mental activity, look naturally into the one who notices this state, the one who is not thinking. When you do so, there is a thought-free knowing (rigpa) that is totally open, free from inside and outside, like a clear sky. 16 This knowing is not a duality of that experienced and that experiencing, but you can resolve that it is your own nature and feel the conviction that “it is no other than this.” As this state cannot be expressed precisely with concepts or descriptions, once you feel such conviction, it can appropriately be described as beyond extremes, indescribable, innate luminosity, awareness, or knowing (rigpa).

 

Then the wakefulness of knowing your nature will dawn, the obscurity of the vacuous state will be cleared, and, just as the interior of a house becomes visible with the rising of the sun, you will find certainty in the nature of your mind. This is the instruction in breaking open the eggshell of ignorance.

 

With that realization, you will understand that the basic and timeless presence of such a nature is not formed out of causes and conditions, that it does not change throughout the three times, and that, separate from this nature, the existence of some other thing called “mind” cannot be found, not even so much as an atom.

 

Although the previous vacant state was indescribable, unable to describe it, you failed to clearly resolve it. The identity of knowing is also indescribable, but you will have now resolved this fact beyond any doubt, and so there is a great difference in the ineffability of each, much like the difference between having eyesight and being blind.

 

This also explains the essential distinction between the all-ground and dharmakaya.

 

Similarly, terms such as ordinary mind, mental nondoing, ineffability, and so on, can indicate both appropriate and inappropriate states. So when you comprehend this crucial point of “similar word but exalted meaning,” you can experience and realize the profound Dharma. When about to settle in the natural way of mind-essence, some people merely try to stay conscious and aware and then rest in the state of mind consciousness with the feeling, “Ah, how clear!” Other people fixate on a state of utter void as if their mind had gone blank. Both of these cases, however, are merely aspects of mind consciousness clinging to a dualistic experience. Whenever this happens— when there is both clarity and one perceiving clarity, or emptiness and one perceiving emptiness— look into the nature of this stream of rigidly fixated mindfulness. By doing so, you pull up the stake to which is tied the dualistic mind that maintains a perceiver and something perceived, and you disentangle the naked and wide-open natural state— a luminous emptiness without center or edge.

 

To resolve this bright and open natural state is called the essence of knowing; it is the dawn of the naked wakefulness of knowing free from the covers of fixated experience. This is the instruction in cutting through the web of samsaric existence.

 

With this spontaneous self-cognizance of your innate nature, recognize the knowing that is free from the various covers of assumptions and temporary experiences— just as rice is free from its husk. Merely recognizing this nature of knowing however is not enough; you must stabilize a steady familiarity with this state. So it is important to sustain, without distraction, a constant remembrance of settling into the natural state.

 

As you continue to practice in this way, sometimes there may be a dull and absentminded state of unknowing. Sometimes there may be a thought-free state of openness revealing vipashyana’s brilliance. Sometimes there may be an experience of bliss with attachment, sometimes an experience of bliss without attachment. Sometimes there may be various experiences of clarity with fixation, sometimes a flawless brilliance free from fixation. Sometimes there may be unpleasant and grueling experiences, sometimes pleasant and smooth experiences. Sometimes there may be a strong turbulence of discursive thought that carries you away and disperses the meditation, sometimes a torpid state of dullness without any clarity.

 

These and other types of unpredictable experiences are thought states cultivated since beginningless time, the countless waves of the karmic wind. They are like the varying pleasant or precipitous scenery during a long journey. Therefore, maintain the natural state without attaching any special importance to whatever arises.

 

Not yet having fully trained in this practice, don’t become discouraged by any experiences of turbulence in which a multitude of thoughts blaze up like a fire. Instead, maintain unbroken practice by keeping a balance between tight and loose. By doing so, the experiences of attainment, and so on, will gradually occur. Usually, at this point, you will gain confidence in the difference between knowing and unknowing, all-ground and dharmakaya, consciousness and wakefulness, as recognized in your own experience through the oral instructions of the guru.

 

When maintaining this recognition— like water, which clears when left undisturbed— let your consciousness settle in itself as its nature of wakefulness is naturally present. This instruction should be regarded as the chief point.

 

Don’t get involved in speculations about what to accept or reject, such as, “Is my meditation object consciousness or wakefulness?” Neither should you rely on theoretical book knowledge, which only increases thought activity. These involvements may obscure your shamatha and vipashyana.

 

At some point, you will reach a more stable familiarity with shamatha and vipashyana as a natural unity— shamatha being an ongoing steadiness in remembering to settle in the natural state, and vipashyana the recognizing of your essence as natural cognizance. Attaining this stability, in which the shamatha of primordially abiding in the natural state and the vipashyana of natural luminosity are basically indivisible, is the dawn of self-existing wakefulness, the realization of dzogchen. This is the instruction for abiding in space-like equanimity.

 

The glorious Saraha said:

Completely abandoning the thinker and what is thought of, Remain like a thought-free child.

 

This is the method of resting, and

 

if you apply yourself to the guru’s words and endeavor,

when you have obtained the instruction that brings you face to face with knowing (rigpa),

the coemergent will dawn without a doubt.

 

Thus dawns the self-existing wakefulness that is rigpa— the nature of your mind, which is primordially coemergent with your mind. This nature (dharmata) of all things (dharmas) is also the original and ultimate luminosity.

 

This being so, settling in naturalness and sustaining the rigpa of recognizing one’s natural face, the mind-essence or nature of mind, is an instruction that condenses a hundred vital points into one. Moreover, this is what you should sustain continuously.

 

Mark the degree of progress in this practice by the strength of the luminosity at night. Understand that the signs for being on the correct path are a spontaneous increase in faith, compassion, and intelligence. Experience within yourself the ease of this practice and the lessening of hardship. Be certain of its depth and swiftness, for your realization is no different from that produced with the greatest effort on other paths.

 

The fruition to be attained by training in your mind’s luminous wakefulness is that, as the obscuration of thoughts and habitual tendencies naturally clears (sang) and the twofold knowledge effortlessly unfolds (gye), 17 you will capture the primordial kingdom and spontaneously accomplish the three kayas.

 

PROFOUND. GUHYA. SAMAYA.

 

On the auspicious twelfth day of the second month in the year of the Fire Horse (April 6, 1906), Mipham Jampal Dorje wrote this practical guidance with comprehensible Dharma terms, a profound instruction in accord with the experience of all the old realized ones, for the benefit of town yogis who do not especially wish to exert themselves in general studies and reflections, yet still desire to train in mind-essence. May it be virtuous.

 

16. In this text, rigpa is translated as “knowing,” so as to follow simple explanations by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche.

 

17. Sangye is Tibetan for Buddha

 

Kunsang, Erik Pema (2012-10-16). Perfect Clarity: A Tibetan Buddhist Anthology of Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

 

 

So, one of Tibet's formost scholars has told us that the realization of Dzogchen is the union of the clearly defined and elaborated terms: "Shamatha and Vipashyana."

 

Here I will repeat his statements:

 

At some point, you will reach a more stable familiarity with shamatha and vipashyana as a natural unity— shamatha being an ongoing steadiness in remembering to settle in the natural state, and vipashyana the recognizing of your essence as natural cognizance. Attaining this stability, in which the shamatha of primordially abiding in the natural state and the vipashyana of natural luminosity are basically indivisible, is the dawn of self-existing wakefulness, the realization of dzogchen.

 

Edited September 6, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice