Learning forgiveness vs. holding grudges

[Songtsan]

If you see post #8 in 'what its like to be insane' you will see why I am such a retard sometimes. A funny thing about the way I am is that while I can literally go into a state where I tear someone's head off, in such a manner that most people would think, "That's the end of that for all time!" because I am such a pawn to my emotions, I can always and easily forgive someone. I have forgiven girlfriends cheating on me, even to the point of saying "It's all right, I don't mind," to people stealing from from me (and then they'd go and do it again), to employers using and abusing our relationship (to the point where other people would have quit). This happened at the spa I worked at in Portland. The employer hadn't been paying anyone in weeks, due to money problems, yet she was also keeping our tip money, and I went almost a month before I said enough is enough.

 

While many of you guys probably think I am a real dick, I have got that certain special something. I will probably always forgive you long before you forgive me. It is what it is. I don't deny I feel a certain ego pride/vanity in that, probably because I want to balance the guilt of how easily I can destroy things. My natural tendency is fast and furious, blowing over quickly, whereas I think others are more slow to anger, and hold that anger longer and release slower. There is a reason I associate with wrathful deities. If I am to learn to love myself completely, I must learn to love this way.

 

I think it is interesting to note how different people can be, and how one shouldn't assume that others work in the same way as them. It is almost like things being lost in translation.

 

All I have to say on that really is that if you think I was a dick to you, it wasn't meant as hard as it seemed, and if you feel you were a dick to me, I am probably way over it by now.

 

I speak a different language than you is all.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Songtsan

[Stosh]

Always forgive your enemies – nothing annoys them so much. — Oscar Wilde

[Trunk]

Clicked on this thread expecting it to be poll...

[Songtsan]

Rather, a pole of etremes...

 

lol very punny! takes one to know one....

[idiot_stimpy]

Forgive, but don't be fooled a second time.

[Songtsan]

Or...how about "Holding Forgiveness (Without) Learning Grudges?"

 

 

Actually I should have not even used the word 'learning' at all...either one of these is something that everyone does naturally, no learning required. If we say 'learning' what we really mean is 'seeking to be' or 'have' or 'do.' Everyone already knows how to forgive, we have all done it before at least once - so I don't think its about learning so much as doing/being. I'd like to say that its a choice, but really its an 'isness' you either forgive or you don't. Of course no one is absolute about anything. Part of us forgives, and part of us holds the grudge still. Grudges fade over time, and so does forgiveness, once it has had its way. After a while, the forgiveness has occurred and disappears into acceptance, which was the original state between friends. So another way to look at it is simply acceptance/rejecting.

[narveen]

Always forgive your enemies – nothing annoys them so much. — Oscar Wilde

 

what about, "forgive your enemies, do good to those that harm you"?

[Songtsan]

At least you can forgive people and not overthink it. Yeah I've been there with women. I don't understand them actually let's say they want me to understand them within a week! If a girl cheats on you, there goes her integrity so really she's at fault. The tough part is keeping yourself from going back to them when you know it won't work out well.

 

As for anger, yeah that's a hard emotion to control. Like either you let it out or it eats you alive. Both are unpleasant. People say to not bitch but if you don't bitch, you'll probably keep that anger within you for years unless your cultivation is there to the point that such an emotion doesn't even matter and you transcended it.

 

I agree - I think its healthy to express anger directly at the person you are angry at (in a socially respectable manner of course). Being angry at someone and simply shutting them off is a far more immature way of handling something, especially if your intent is to be sincere. It always comes back to absolutism - people should remember not to view others in absolute terms - this always leads to throwing out the baby with the bath water.

[Songtsan]

what about, "forgive your enemies, do good to those that harm you"?

 

Forgive your enemies, but be wary of second knives in the back. Or...enemies help us build our thick skins! Can't have too thick of a skin around this place!

Edited July 12, 2013 by Songtsan

[narveen]

If you see post #8 in 'what its like to be insane' you will see why I am such a retard sometimes. A funny thing about the way I am is that while I can literally go into a state where I tear someone's head off, in such a manner that most people would think, "That's the end of that for all time!" because I am such a pawn to my emotions, I can always and easily forgive someone. I have forgiven girlfriends cheating on me, even to the point of saying "It's all right, I don't mind," to people stealing from from me (and then they'd go and do it again), to employers using and abusing our relationship (to the point where other people would have quit). This happened at the spa I worked at in Portland. The employer hadn't been paying anyone in weeks, due to money problems, yet she was also keeping our tip money, and I went almost a month before I said enough is enough.

 

While many of you guys probably think I am a real dick, I have got that certain special something. I will probably always forgive you long before you forgive me. It is what it is. I don't deny I feel a certain ego pride/vanity in that, probably because I want to balance the guilt of how easily I can destroy things. My natural tendency is fast and furious, blowing over quickly, whereas I think others are more slow to anger, and hold that anger longer and release slower. There is a reason I associate with wrathful deities. If I am to learn to love myself completely, I must learn to love this way.

 

I think it is interesting to note how different people can be, and how one shouldn't assume that others work in the same way as them. It is almost like things being lost in translation.

 

All I have to say on that really is that if you think I was a dick to you, it wasn't meant as hard as it seemed, and if you feel you were a dick to me, I am probably way over it by now.

 

I speak a different language than you is all.

 

this is a very nice piece to put in your book, songtsan.

i like it when you go on impulse, hang loose and spit it out.

it's uninhibited, unrehearsed and unabashed honesty

it's what writing is all about, said hemingway - telling the truth.

Edited July 12, 2013 by narveen

[Songtsan]

this is a very nice piece to put in your book, songtsan.

i like it when you go on impulse, hang loose and spit it out.

it's uninhibited, unrehearsed and unabashed honesty

it's what writing is all about, said hemingway - telling the truth.

 

Here is the truth right now then: I ate too much sugar and I feel horrible! Chewy smarties! yum! but oh, now I pay the price....I need to find forgiveness for myself for doing this to my body...

Edited July 12, 2013 by Songtsan

[narveen]

Forgive, but don't be fooled a second time.

 

then it wouldn't be forgiveness, would it?

it's harbored pain,

a learning for a counter-measure in a missile defense system

[Songtsan]

then it wouldn't be forgiveness, would it?

it's harbored pain,

a learning for a counter-measure in a missile defense system

 

Yes, a sensitivity...once bitten twice shy...a little defensive - this is true...but I suppose if one is in accord with the Tao, then one can in a way always be ready for anything without preparing at all. I wonder - say if you are in accord with the Tao, and you get robbed every time you travel along a certain road, by the same group of bandits. Let's say its the only way to get to work Now...you have to go to work, right? Let's just pretend yes. Would the person who lives from Taomind be prepared for whats going to happen, or would they still just be in Tao and deal with it fresh every time, without freezing up in expectation?

[narveen]

Forgive your enemies, but be wary of second knives in the back. Or...enemies help us build our thick skins! Can't have too thick of a skin around this place!

 

better than forgiveness is a vulnerability

no skin

 

is it possible to bear no scars, no memory of pain

no matter how many times stabbed in the back

 

i know this sound stupid

like turning the other cheek

that was what jesus meant, i think

 

what do you think?

[Songtsan]

better than forgiveness is a vulnerability

no skin

 

is it possible to bear no scars, no memory of pain

no matter how many times stabbed in the back

 

i know this sound stupid

like turning the other cheek

that was what jesus meant, i think

 

what do you think?

 

sure! It would either be an indication of an enlightened or nearly enlightened saint, or a person with no long term memory like in that movie 50 first dates

[narveen]

Yes, a sensitivity...once bitten twice shy...a little defensive - this is true...but I suppose if one is in accord with the Tao, then one can in a way always be ready for anything without preparing at all.

 

better than being ready for anything

is never having to be ready at all

and yet never ever run into harm

 

to be in accord with intelligence (tao?)

live right (whatever that means)

Edited July 12, 2013 by narveen

[narveen]

sure! It would either be an indication of an enlightened or nearly enlightened saint, or a person with no long term memory like in that movie 50 first dates

 

i know it all sounds naive and ridiculous

to have no defense

in the world we are in

 

but only armor-plated tough guys can survive in the "hood".

do we want that toughest to survive?

can a hoodlum ever be a saint?

Edited July 12, 2013 by narveen

[Songtsan]

...but the way of internal martial arts is to know the masculine, but keep to the feminine...dont fight fight force with force, fight force with emptiness...When someone pushes, you pull them further in...When someone pulls you in, you move with their force and let them give that force to you as you speed towards them like a striking cobra....I think the important thing is to avoid physical armoring...physical armoring, held in the muscle memory - is what causes a bevy of ills in people. Mental armoring also causes these ills, stress being one of them. If one is ever aware and present, the right action will come as needed. Also, wisdom will play a role - no need to go strolling in the hood at all usually.

[narveen]

I wonder - say if you are in accord with the Tao, and you get robbed every time you travel along a certain road, by the same group of bandits. Let's say its the only way to get to work Now...you have to go to work, right? Let's just pretend yes. Would the person who lives from Taomind be prepared for whats going to happen, or would they still just be in Tao and deal with it fresh every time, without freezing up in expectation?

 

good question.

 

i am not theorizing here.

no shit.

living right protects you

it changes your life fundamentally

so that you step off the beaten path that others tread

away from the dangers

no dangers, no defense

[Songtsan]

can a hoodlum ever be a saint?

 

I believe anyone could be a saint, although I guess it depends on how 'saint' is defined. Many say Gandhi was a saint, yet he also had his followers go down to a 2000 year old temple that was of Tantric design, which had many statues of naked people in sexual positions (sanctifying the act of sex), and they tore that temple down. Now I am sure that that temple was sacred to someone over there, yet he said my way is the best way - your ways I deem inferior...so was he a saint? Not in my book. Could a hoodlum become a saint? Yes, if they were of such internal noble virtue as to never judge, never demoralize, never create systems of higher/lower worth, and so on. A saint is as a saint does. If a hoodlum does saintly things inside and out, then they are saintly. If someone does saintly on the outside, but inside is a mean bastard, then they are no saint. If someone would do saintly things on the outside, being saintly on the inside, but can't because maybe they became a saint in jail and they are locked in a cell all day, they are still a saint. If someone becomes enlightened and leaves the world to go live far apart in a cave in the Himalayas, are they a saint? Not in my book, although they are still cool - to me a saint is one who, having realized the true God nature of all wo/man, goes out in the world and does good for people, no matter who they are...whereever there is need, they add an injection of goodness, without thoughts of gain or favoritism.

[narveen]

...but the way of internal martial arts is to know the masculine, but keep to the feminine...dont fight fight force with force, fight force with emptiness...When someone pushes, you pull them further in...When someone pulls you in, you move with their force and let them give that force to you as you speed towards them like a striking cobra....I think the important thing is to avoid physical armoring...physical armoring, held in the muscle memory - is what causes a bevy of ills in people. Mental armoring also causes these ills, stress being one of them. If one is ever aware and present, the right action will come as needed. Also, wisdom will play a role - no need to go strolling in the hood at all usually.

 

 

exactly!

 

martial art is war.

best strategy is avoidance of war - sun tzu

 

[narveen]

I believe anyone could be a saint, although I guess it depends on how 'saint' is defined. Many say Gandhi was a saint, yet he also had his followers go down to a 2000 year old temple that was of Tantric design, which had many statues of naked people in sexual positions (sanctifying the act of sex), and they tore that temple down. Now I am sure that that temple was sacred to someone over there, yet he said my way is the best way - your ways I deem inferior...so was he a saint? Not in my book. Could a hoodlum become a saint? Yes, if they were of such internal noble virtue as to never judge, never demoralize, never create systems of higher/lower worth, and so on. A saint is as a saint does. If a hoodlum does saintly things inside and out, then they are saintly. If someone does saintly on the outside, but inside is a mean bastard, then they are no saint. If someone would do saintly things on the outside, being saintly on the inside, but can't because maybe they became a saint in jail and they are locked in a cell all day, they are still a saint. If someone becomes enlightened and leaves the world to go live far apart in a cave in the Himalayas, are they a saint? Not in my book, although they are still cool - to me a saint is one who, having realized the true God nature of all wo/man, goes out in the world and does good for people, no matter who they are...whereever there is need, they add an injection of goodness, without thoughts of gain or favoritism.

 

i need to run, songtsan.

will reply this when i get back.

i'm going to really do spiritual battle with you - one immortal against another

this is true martial art

[Songtsan]

i need to run, songtsan.

will reply this when i get back.

i'm going to really do spiritual battle with you - one immortal against another

this is true martial art

 

The leaves of the forest will fly in whirlwinds as we execute spinning wheelbarrow kicks at each other in rapid succession.

The ground will shake as we jump high, duel in midair, and land with the force of Titans.

The crowd will exclaim in awe as these two furious foes lash out in a demonstration of skill sure to create lasting memories in all witnesses.

[idiot_stimpy]

then it wouldn't be forgiveness, would it?

it's harbored pain,

a learning for a counter-measure in a missile defense system

 

I don't know what your definitions are, so I don't follow you there.

[Songtsan]

I don't know what your definitions are, so I don't follow you there.

 

We should all stop defining anyways...it would be much better if we did.