When John Chang says....

[Thunder_Gooch]

My definition of trance does not include laser like focus.

A profoundly deep state of trance IS the state you absolutely have to be in to attempt the meditation, and that is where the focus comes in.

If you have focus (one pointed concentration) but are not deep into the trance state it is worthless.

If you have a better word for the state in between waking and sleeping other than trance I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trance

2 : a sleeplike state (as of deep hypnosis) usually characterized by partly suspended animation with diminished or absent sensory and motor activity

Remember me debating you about trance, along with TI and Spotless? I wouldn't have disagreed with your position at all, had I realised your interpretation of the word 'trance' included laser like focus.

Many people generally use the word 'trance' to describe a zoned out state of mind, dead tree Zen, like someone hypnotised or a rock. I'm sure that's not what you're aiming for at all.

When I say shamatha/access concentration/jhana, and you refer to levels of trance, based on the bolded quote it seems we are saying the same thing with emphasis on different aspects... miscommunicating. You emphasise non-conceptuality and I emphasise vividness, we misunderstand and think each other neglects our emphasised aspect of meditation.

Maybe if you said something like 'vivid trance' or 'alert trance', it would prevent people who see 'trance' as having connotations of laxity/torpor misunderstanding and starting a pointless debate.

Edited July 6, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

“You know how in meditation we slow down our breathing and our pulse? It’s because we move more and more into our yin consciousness.”

 

The Magus of Java: Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal (p. 52)

"I will enter total meditation—like the borderline between sleep and waking, okay?"

 

The Magus of Java: Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal (p. 56)

 

 

“What is actual meditation like?” I asked.

 

“There are no thoughts and there is no sense of time. If you are

thinking, you are not in meditation. If you are aware of yourself, you

are also not in meditation. You must become like a baby in the womb,

there and yet not there. Meditation is like the borderline between

sleep and waking, between consciousness and unconsciousness.”

 

“Very difficult.”

 

“Not so difficult, Kosta. You stayed in meditation for long peri-

ods when you were an embryo and a baby, and you pass through it

now each time you drift off to sleep. You just have to remember how.”

 

Danaos, Kosta The Magus of Java (p. 82)

 

 

Countless different Qigong and meditation exercises exist. All teach the basic idea of using consciousness to go into the emptiness where thoughts ultimately cease or greatly diminish and sensory connections to our bodies fade. We and everything in our world are all from the emptiness and will go back to the emptiness. It is a state of pure energy where we are one with the universe.

 

-Chunyi Lin (Spring Forest Qigong)

Edited July 6, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Maybe if you said something like 'vivid trance' or 'alert trance', it would prevent people who see 'trance' as having connotations of laxity/torpor misunderstanding and starting a pointless debate.

 

I think you understood correctly the first time.

 

Trance is trance is trance is trance, you can go read the Webster's definition I provided.

 

Trance is the state you have to be in first, the prerequisite to beginning meditation.

 

That is where focus (one pointed concentration) comes into play.

 

Focus in a normal waking state of consciousness is absolutely worthless.

Edited July 6, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Repeating the same quotes doesn't make your argument any more convincing. Have you considered that there are multiple states between consciousness and unconsciousness? Trance is just one, and it's actually completely at odds with cultivation.

 

Actually, in a bigger sense, trance isn't even between consciousness and unconsciousness. It is a conscious state, but one where awareness is focused on a contrived mental dullness.

 

The 'emptiness where thoughts cease' that Chunyi Lin is referring to (assuming he knows what he is talking about) is certainly not trance. It is jhana.

 

Entering a trance to then focus is like jumping in the sea to then dry off. I have entered trances before, many times, and tried focusing/meditating within them. It is of no use to cultivation. There is more awareness of chi... but less awareness. And awareness is what we need to hone to cut through delusion and clinging. If you are saying here that focus is good (because you are saying to enter trance, then to focus), haven't you noticed that the level of focus possible in trance is inherently lower than that while fully conscious?

 

If you value focus, then you should start at waking consciousness then go to higher focus where consciousness and unconsciousness are really, properly not separate.

 

Focusing from waking consciousness (shamatha) trains out the hindrances of restlessness and torpor, making it possible to reach the actual states of jhana between consciousness and unconsciousness. It also improves meta-cognition and mindfulness, leading to a less reactionary person who acts, thinks and speaks with more wisdom because they are not slaves to previous habits.

 

It then becomes possible to progress to vipassana practice, where the mind that has been developed through shamatha focuses on the nature of experience itself while letting go of all clinging to forms and mental phenomena, to gain prajna. Prajna then leads to dropping all conceptual limitation to realise Tao.

 

It is not possible to just jump to letting go and seeing Tao, BTW, because any letting go done without great prajna is still limited within the constraints of mind and awareness, mind and awareness are still clung to as the things that are 'doing' the letting go. A sword cannot cut itself.

 

Please explain how trance progresses to Tao realisation. Have you considered it at all, or are you just assuming trances are good because they feel calm and a book says so? If we are in trance for months as embryos and much of the time as babies, and trance is good cultivation, why aren't more people highly realised, why aren't young children all masters?

 

Even though they are being adulated today, shamanic trances and hypnotic states are examples that fall into this category of spiritual deviation. These roads seem to have great appeal today, especially to academics trying to do research and write papers, but they are actually experiential realms where you are not in control of the mind, and they do not ever lead to spiritual enlightenment or any of the dhyana. They are not the path of Tao in any way, shape or form.

 

You can therefore understand that the cultivation practice of psychics who fall into trances, such as Edgar Cayce, are considered "outside paths" even though du-yin type abilities have sometimes provided the world with useful information. These are not genuine pathways of spiritual cultivation because they are not pathways to self-realization, and so they do not constitute proper pathways of spiritual practice! In a sense you can simply call them deviant practices. People may desire these things, but they are lusting after the wrong targets.

 

While the material offered by shamans and those who fall into trances or "channel" information to us may actually at times be quite useful, it is actually a crime to call these "pathways of spiritual cultivation."

[voidisyinyang]

yeah so on last Friday - a week ago - I was with Spring Forest Qigong Master Jim Nance - just the two of us chatting.

 

I was complaining about my energy blockage and Jim says - we can fix that hold on.

 

So then he just goes into "trance" and immediately I feel this energy deep into my heart - way deeper than I could ever do myself.

 

So Jim calls that the fundamental level of reality - the God level of reality - the Emptiness - the impersonal awareness.

 

Jim says he does not heal people - he just calls on God's energy through the purity of his mind and then Jim let's God's energy heal people.

 

Jim also says that sitting in full lotus automatically purifies the energy and the best mudra is the prayer position with the hands in front of the heart.

 

Chunyi told use that it's even better to turn the prayer position so the hands are facing the heart.

 

So this is what the qigong masters do - they sit in full lotus meditation 4 to 5 hours every night nonstop.

 

Wang Liping does this.

 

Yan Xin does this.

 

Chunyi Lin does this.

 

Jim Nance does this.

 

Chunyi Lin said if you want to see if someone is a real master just see how long they can sit in full lotus in ease.

 

 

When you have genuinely entered Samadhi, the breath [electromagnetic chi] is
definitely full. In a person filled with breath, no matter how old, all parts of the
body are soft and supple, and the person becomes as supple as a baby… What is
most important is correcting our minds. Any posture will do: when your
meditation succeeds, your legs will become supple and you will naturally be able
to sit cross-legged [full-lotus] steadily…. If the breath [electromagnetic chi] is not
cultivated until it circulates freely, and the network of energy channels is not
transformed, then you will not be able to attain Samadhi.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin, Working Toward Enlightenment: The cultivation of practice (Red
Wheel/Weiser, 1993), pp. 128, 175.

 

No need for conceptual arguments!!

 

Just sit in full lotus and meditate.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Was Jim in trance, or samadhi? Big, big difference. And even if he entered trance temporarily to aid chi transmission, does that mean people should be practicing trances on a regular basis as a main method in its own right?

[voidisyinyang]

Was Jim in trance, or samadhi? Big, big difference. And even if he entered trance temporarily to aid chi transmission, does that mean people should be practicing trances on a regular basis as a main method in its own right?

 

Trance, samadhi - these are just words!!!!

 

The concept you are dealing with is "mind" or ego versus Emptiness as God.

 

Deep in the heart is the 8th Level of Consciousness - beyond the mind-body.

 

Ramana Maharshi recognized this also.

 

Gurdjieff recognized this - calling it the Large Accumulator.

 

So Jim told me that when he first started healing he was using his mind and so that created problems.

 

Now Jim said he just relies on God or the Emptiness to do the healing for him and that way Jim can just recharge his energy constantly.

 

So - if you listen to the new podcast of Jim's Qi-talk he mentions how he did healing on over a hundred people in Atlanta Georgia - nonstop healing of over a hundred people - and it did not deplete his energy at all. http://jimnancexperience.wordpress.com

 

Because it's not his mind's energy - it is God's energy that is doing the healing.

 

So Jim has used the term trance - because that is a term applied to say how African shamans do healings as Jim experienced.

 

Would African shamans use the term samadhi? haha. Of course most of the African shamans Jim experienced did not know English or probably where not aware of Eastern meditation terms, etc.

 

The mind is not the same as the Emptiness.

 

So for example consciousness - the term is usually applied to the mind but the term awareness is sometimes applied to mind but also to the Emptiness -- formless awareness.

 

Ramana Maharshi actually focuses on this paradox -

 

See Ramana Maharshi, Talks With Ramana Maharshi: On Realizing Abiding Peace and Happiness (Inner

Directions; 2nd edition, August 1, 2000), p. 77.

 

 

“The satvic mind has to be admitted as a concession to argument. The

satvic mind is in fact the Absolute consciousness. The object to be witnessed and the witness finally merge together

and Absolute consciousness alone reigns supreme.”

 

So Jim says that this is the awareness or movement of light energy but it is not light energy itself.

 

Light energy is consciousness as the mind or spirit energy.

 

The chi is what powers the movement of spirit-light as awareness.

 

So we can not really separate the life force chi energy from the mind spirit light.

 

The Emptiness is the movement of the spirit-chi energy.

 

Emptiness is this eternal movement that is also pure awareness.

 

Sri Aurobindo even refers to quantum physics to describe this paradox of the ego-mind versus the Emptiness - they do not happen at the same time but they are constantly moving into each other eternally -- in quantum physics this is the "time frequency uncertainty principle."

 

This is the secret of the Tai-Chi symbol as yin-yang energy dynamics.

 

Western rationalism is based on defining reality through symmetric geometry - a static visual definition based on dualism.

 

So Mouna Samadhi as Ramana Maharshi calls the ultimate samadhi -- it is eternal listening -- eternal silence that creates energy.

 

This listening process is the Emptiness as the eternal awareness-movement of energy creation - it is the quantum time frequency uncertainty principle as the Tai-Chi symbol eternally.

 

I go into more details on my blogpost http://fulllotusqigong.blogspot.com/2012/11/non-commutative-resonance-quantum.html

 

So at first the mind is used for concentration - repeating I-I-I but the source of the I-thought is based on this impersonal energy dynamic of yin-yang movement.

 

So sitting in full lotus activates this impersonal yin-yang energy dynamic - and so the energy knows where to go on its own.

 

That is the "form of the formless" - and the secret of Tai Chi movements, etc. - so balance and build up the energy channels based on this yin-yang energy dynamic.

 

The problem with Buddhism is that it is still based on the symmetric logic of Brahmanism - and so Buddhism still neglects the inherent asymmetric or complementary opposites of the yin-yang energy dynamics.

 

The world wide trance of nonwestern shamanism is based on the 1-4-5 music intervals - the perfect fifth and perfect fourth music intervals are the definition of the yin-yang energy dynamics of the Tai-Chi symbol and the nonwestern music intervals are the natural means of the quantum time-frequency uncertainty principle. It's just that Western logic tries to contain this infinity through symmetric geometric mathematical reasoning.

 

“But the Self is beyond knowledge and ignorance. It is light itself.” P. 208 “The whole

cosmos is contained in one pinhole in the Heart. These passions are part of the cosmos. They are avidya (ignorance). P. 226. “Nada, photisms, etc., imply the existence of triputi (the triads of cogniser, cognition

and the cognized). The current resulting from investigation of Self is suddhatriputi or pure triad – that is to

say, undifferentiated triad.” p. 275.

 

So we can see that Ramana Maharshi is dealing with this paradox - the light of the mind as consciousness is purified to then access this universal energy impersonal awareness as the Emptiness or formless awareness.

 

What is the "undifferentiated triad"? It is the Tai Chi symbol! But again this is eternal energy transformation. Buddhism did make this correction to Brahmin Vedanta philosophy - but again the secret is based on this experiential knowledge of the energy channels and that is why the full lotus yoga position has been such a crucial meditation tool -- as the Tetrahedron it is the most concise implementation of the yin-yang energy dynamics. Wang Liping goes into great detail about this.

 

The heart is then the eye of the hurricane so to speak - it is like in quantum chaos science - like a fractal - of spacetime black hole transformation - it is holographic - everywhere and nowhere at the same time - it is non-local reality as pure formless awareness -- the supposed "random noise" of Western science - but not random at all -- since it relies on this yin-yang energy dynamic.

 

When Jim was doing his black hole interdimensional psychic astral spirit travel - I said - so you were in full lotus? He said yes whenever he's entered into deep Emptiness it has been in full lotus.

Edited July 6, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[voidisyinyang]

O.K.

 

on the Emptiness from Ramana Maharshi:

 

 

D: Maharshi: Are you conscious of a brotherhood of invisible rishis?
M: If invisible, how to see them?
D: In consciousness.
M: There is nothing external in consciousness.
D: Is there not the individuality? I fear to lose my individual being. Is there not
in consciousness the consciousness of being human?
M: Why fear to lose individuality? What is your state in dreamless sleep? Are
you conscious of your individuality then?
D: It is possible.
M: But what is your experience? If individuality be there, would it be deep
sleep?

 

So in deep meditation - you are consciously going into a state of dreamless sleep - and so a normal ordinary person can not do that consciously - they have to fall asleep and wait.

 

So that's why the qigong masters only need a few hours a sleep at night - because they just recharge on their own through meditation in full lotus.

 

So the heart is the deep slow wave that increases the amplitude stronger for the chi energy to recharge the body/mind and also enables spirit travel - and holographic reality, etc.

 

That is the classical physics view - but in fact it is a quantum "higher frequency" energy through the purity of the mind by coherent resonance or harmonization of the mind waves which slow down the mind thinking through concentration - but then increase the heart energy as the real mind.

 

So Chunyi Lin said his heart stopped for over 2 hours - fully stopped - but he was walking around fine. He does not recommend that for others - but this is how Ramana Maharshi described it:

 

 

“In both sets of patients, measurable EEG brain activity dwindled as
blood pressure dropped and, eventually the heart stopped beating. But then, in each patient, there
was an abrupt burst of brain activity lasting about a minute or more which correlated with
gamma synchrony EEG, the most reliable marker of conscious awareness. Then, just as abruptly,
the activity ceased.”

 

O.K. Stuart Hameroff on quantum consciousness science.

 

 

There was some reference to the extract from the Modern Psychological Review
wondering if any instruments could be of use in detecting the Heart-center and if
proper subjects were available for recording the experience of the adepts in the
spiritual path, and so on. Others were speaking. Sri Bhagavan said: In the
incident mentioned in the book Self-Realization that I became unconscious and
symptoms of death supervened, I was all along aware. I could feel the action of
the physical heart stopped and equally the action of the Heart-center unimpaired.
This state lasted about a quarter of an hour.

 

This state continued 15 or 20 minutes. Then suddenly something shot out from
the right to the left resembling a rocket bursting in the air. The blood circulation
was resumed and normal condition restored.

 

p. 392.
p. 398.

 

Talks with Ramana Maharshi

Edited July 6, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[voidisyinyang]

So Jim -- I was talking with Jim about this - and he said he realized that the secret is the kidney life force energy -- people are afraid to reach the Emptiness - because they have not build up the jing energy enough to have strong enough chi energy which is what powers the movement of the Emptiness -- it powers the mind as heart-spirit energy.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Yes, I agree, but we still need to fumble around on the conventional truth with words on this subject, because we need the right understanding to cultivate correctly. There is no way Jim realised his Emptiness through trance. My points are still valid and useful points.

 

I will say no more here. People can and should come to their own conclusions, and I think I've said enough to point down the right line of inquiry (unless I'm wrong after all - I'm not presuming to be infallible).

[Jetsun]

Trance usually means limiting the mind within certain parameters, which has its uses, but the unlimited wont be reached by a limiting imprisoning practice, which is why the higher forms of meditation involve a complete openness to all situations and experiences without any limits or conditions

[Thunder_Gooch]

Huge post here, I'll work on it bit by bit.

 

You assume I am trying to convince you, I am not. I am just stating what is. If you disagree you disagree. I could not possibly care less what you practice or believe about cultivation.

 

 

 

Repeating the same quotes doesn't make your argument any more convincing.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Trance is just one, and it's actually completely at odds with cultivation.

 

Trance is not at odds with the type of cultivation I practice. In fact, it is a prerequisite to the actual meditation. That is the truth.

 

You may do something different and trance is bad for whatever that is, that's fine.

 

If you still feel otherwise agree to disagree and move on with your life.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Actually, in a bigger sense, Actually, in a bigger sense, trance isn't even between consciousness and unconsciousness.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trance

 

2. A sleeplike state (as of deep hypnosis) usually characterized by partly suspended animation with diminished or absent sensory and motor activity

[Thunder_Gooch]

It is a conscious state, but one where awareness is focused on a contrived mental dullness.

 

 

 

What?

 

 

Trance is not mental dullness, I am not sure who told you this or where on earth you got that idea. It is the state between waking and sleeping, your thought processes will never be more lucid than in this state. You will never think with more clarity or be more insightful than in this state. Remember that thing you couldn't remember what it was from 5 months ago, BOOM you have instant access to that knowledge. Remember childhood memories you'd forgotten? BOOM here they are in perfect HD video clarity.

 

The waking state is the dull state my friend.

 

You are free to go over the dictionary definition of trance again and try to argue why this isn't it. If you want to play that game fine, but if not I'd rather not continue splitting hairs.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Being focused on an object either internal or external to a superhuman degree leads to Jhana, Jhana is not trance. Trance is the state you must first be in to begin the meditation I practice. One pointed concentration/focus done from the trance state (in between waking and sleeping) allows for the meditation to actually work. Both are necessary.

 

One pointed concentration itself does not allow you to enter into trance, it does not allow you to enter into suspended metabolic animation.

 

The 'emptiness where thoughts cease' that Chunyi Lin is referring to (assuming he knows what he is talking about) is certainly not trance. It is jhana.

 

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Entering a trance to then focus is like jumping in the sea to then dry off.

I am not sure you and I are on the same page here.

 

Trance is the state you must be in, one pointed concentration is the thing you do in that state.

 

Both equally as necessary, so is being physically/electrically grounded to the earth at the perineum point, so is metabolic suspended animation, so is full/half lotus, etc.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I have entered trances before, many times, and tried focusing/meditating within them.

I am not sure we are on the same page. If you are describing trance as mental dullness I am certain we are not on the same page.

[Thunder_Gooch]

It is of no use to cultivation.

 

I think you meant to say: "It is of no use to MY cultivation."

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Don't use the word trance then, because the state of a hypnotised person or someone half-asleep is not one where "your thought processes will never be more lucid than in this state. You will never think with more clarity or be more insightful than in this state."

 

Explain what you do to enter trance, that will make it clearer to me what exactly you are talking about.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I have entered trances before, many times, and tried focusing/meditating within them.

Again I am not sure we are on the same page, sounds like you fell asleep and are blaming something you think is something else for something or other, not really sure.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I think you meant to say: "It is of no use to MY cultivation."

 

The same principle of virtue, samadhi and prajna is absolutely universal. Training in the state of a hypnotised person is the exact opposite of samadhi, and therefore trance is useless. Unless we are just misunderstanding each other based on words?

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Don't use the word trance then, because the state of a hypnotised person or someone half-asleep is not one where "your thought processes will never be more lucid than in this state. You will never think with more clarity or be more insightful than in this state."

Explain what you do to enter trance, that will make it clearer to me what exactly you are talking about.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Thunder_Gooch]

There is more awareness of chi... but less awareness.

I am not sure I agree with the second part of this statement.

 

There is less awareness of the outside world, for instance I could be in trance and someone start knocking on the door, perhaps even screaming and I would not be able to hear it even if I was trying to listen for it.

 

Time dilation occurs, thinking is slowed down, you think much less and much slower, but much more clearly.

[Thunder_Gooch]

we need to hone to cut through delusion and clinging

 

Buddhist practice don't go where I am wanting to go, they go somewhere else.