Role Of Deities

[nine tailed fox]

hmmmmmmmm

 

as you guys probably know, i am a hindu

 

in hinduism there is overwhelming influence of Deities than in any other religion

 

my question is how much role does a Deity play in gaining enlightenment ?

 

personally i think Deities can help you but it is false that only a deity can make you enlightened

 

for example my father's guru is a devotee of lord Shiva

 

He says only Lord Shiva can grant you enlightenment

 

if you dont worship him, you cant get enlightenment

 

Even other gods have to come to Lord Shiva to achieve enlightenment

 

i dont understand it

 

i mean how realizing your true nature is related to worshiping lord Shiva

 

he gives great emphasis on bhakti

 

but personally i think Bhakti is a dangerous practice for a true spiritual practitioner because it says that God is somewhere else and you have to worship him

 

but the truth is exactly opposite , God is everywhere , actually you are the God

 

i believe that Deities exist and they can help you and even make the road to liberation easy but Tao is the supreme

 

Shiva is not Tao, he is a God emerged from Tao just like we emerged

 

Go for the Tao Directly

 

 

[DragonsNectar69k]

hmmmmmmmm

 

as you guys probably know, i am a hindu

 

in hinduism there is overwhelming influence of Deities than in any other religion

 

my question is how much role does a Deity play in gaining enlightenment ?

 

personally i think Deities can help you but it is false that only a deity can make you enlightened

 

for example my father's guru is a devotee of lord Shiva

 

He says only Lord Shiva can grant you enlightenment

 

if you dont worship him, you cant get enlightenment

 

Even other gods have to come to Lord Shiva to achieve enlightenment

 

i dont understand it

 

i mean how realizing your true nature is related to worshiping lord Shiva

 

he gives great emphasis on bhakti

 

but personally i think Bhakti is a dangerous practice for a true spiritual practitioner because it says that God is somewhere else and you have to worship him

 

but the truth is exactly opposite , God is everywhere , actually you are the God

 

i believe that Deities exist and they can help you and even make the road to liberation easy but Tao is the supreme

 

Shiva is not Tao, he is a God emerged from Tao just like we emerged

 

Go for the Tao Directly

 

It is called loyalty and it deals with conflicts of interest, you will find it in every system or religion concerning the God's.

 

"Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Exodus 34:13

 

Strange verse, but it deals with the Israelite's and how they were worshiping false idols rather than the true and living God, themselves and the Higher Beings who created them, it seems.

 

Also, if you are ever initiated into a religion, group, or coven perhaps. You will deal with this same issue as well, due to influence, conflicts of interest, and sources of energy. It is just the way things have been down for the last couple thousands of years. But I have seen all different types of spiritual things in the astral. Catholics, Mormons, Christians, Wiccans, Satanist, Buddhist, who all had abilities and seemed 'enlightened'.

[DragonsNectar69k]

Ahh. I forgot the Muslims as well. I saw Krishna once with a bunch of jewels as well as Ganesha as well.

[Cheshire Cat]

hmmmmmmmm

 

as you guys probably know, i am a hindu

 

in hinduism there is overwhelming influence of Deities than in any other religion

 

my question is how much role does a Deity play in gaining enlightenment ?

 

personally i think Deities can help you but it is false that only a deity can make you enlightened

 

for example my father's guru is a devotee of lord Shiva

 

He says only Lord Shiva can grant you enlightenment

 

if you dont worship him, you cant get enlightenment

 

Even other gods have to come to Lord Shiva to achieve enlightenment

 

i dont understand it

 

i mean how realizing your true nature is related to worshiping lord Shiva

 

he gives great emphasis on bhakti

 

but personally i think Bhakti is a dangerous practice for a true spiritual practitioner because it says that God is somewhere else and you have to worship him

 

but the truth is exactly opposite , God is everywhere , actually you are the God

 

i believe that Deities exist and they can help you and even make the road to liberation easy but Tao is the supreme

 

Shiva is not Tao, he is a God emerged from Tao just like we emerged

 

Go for the Tao Directly

 

To see a particular Deity as the supreme God from which you are totally dependent is the main tenet of bhakti-yoga, as you know. Since everything comes from the God, then even spiritual accomplishment is a gift from the heavens.

 

Don't know how many people can do it, but the purpose of this yoga is prema which is a quite advanced stuff, imho.

In addition, one may add all sorts of magical applications in working with the deity.

 

Don't forget that even buddhists and daoists of today pray and worship deities from dawn to dusk. This is done for a reason.

Edited June 1, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[3bob]

Shiva grants Shiva, Shiva.... also: Jiva is Shiva.

 

The names or vehicles are of certain importance but not nearly as important as the meanings.

Methods (as in various yogas) are of certain importance but not nearly as important as the realization.

 

Om Tat Sat

 

 

(although I'm not sure how the many different schools of Shaivism teach?)

Edited June 1, 2013 by 3bob

[theurgy]

To see a particular Deity as the supreme God from which you are totally dependent is the main tenet of bhakti-yoga, as you know. Since everything comes from the God, then even spiritual accomplishment is a gift from the heavens.

 

Don't know how many people can do it, but the purpose of this yoga is prema which is a quite advanced stuff, imho.

In addition, one may add all sorts of magical applications in working with the deity.

 

Don't forget that even buddhists and daoists of today pray and worship deities from dawn to dusk. This is done for a reason.

 

Good post. In another sense, by taking on the qualities of the Deity through constant meditation, one creates a container for one's energies when one is no longer in the body. Deity Yoga leads to the creation of the Body of Light in some schools. This is the more esoteric interpretation.

[C T]

Working with deities to extinguish passions is very effective. This work, which if done correctly, will neither be extroverted nor introverted. The initiate goes thru a process best described as retroversion, which points to practices directed at turning or conditioning backwards the limited self, redesigning/remoulding one's inner being using deity(s) as both a source of inspiration and energetic map, to expand from one point, and then returning to the one point (bindu). This is very difficult to achieve without the proper yidam practices being conferred to the initiate. Those who have attempted to go solo on such paths have been known to lose their way in the astral realms and worse, go mad from too much divine play.

 

 

For further insights, i would recommend reading 'The Transformed Mind' (HH The Dalai Lama).

Edited June 1, 2013 by C T

[de_paradise]

There's a few things at play. One is deep trance identification, which perhaps is another way of saying "retroversion" (nice word BTW) What alot of "regular" people don't understand is that its deeper (or higher) than what we normally classify conscious or subconscious mind, because it gets to the realm of higher mind, and that is quite a nebulous area, because metaphor are thought and thought is metaphor; or thought energy is reality, and projection of a deity is sometimes just as good as the deity. Huh? Yeah. Anther aspect is the energy of the deity communicating in this mind.

 

Good times, lots of angels and supreme beings.

[三江源]

de_paradise, I wish you would say more, if you can. Although what you have said is not wanting in any way, its just so good to hear your perspective.

[Flolfolil]

i personally view shiva as just one archetype of a decent guy.

 

don't worship, embody

[nine tailed fox]

To see a particular Deity as the supreme God from which you are totally dependent is the main tenet of bhakti-yoga, as you know. Since everything comes from the God, then even spiritual accomplishment is a gift from the heavens.

 

Don't know how many people can do it, but the purpose of this yoga is prema which is a quite advanced stuff, imho.

In addition, one may add all sorts of magical applications in working with the deity.

 

Don't forget that even buddhists and daoists of today pray and worship deities from dawn to dusk. This is done for a reason.

 

 

i understand that but isnt this dillusional ?

 

i mean Dao is which we cant describe, it is unfathomable

 

Dao De JIng says

 

"The Tao that can be told is not the

eternal Tao.

The name that can be named is not the

eternal name."

 

when you give something a name and say that this is the Dao, it is wrong

 

you assume that Lord Shiva is the Dao but because you have given it a name , a personalty , it isnt Dao anymore

 

 

let me give you some example

 

there are three sects in india

 

Shaiva- shaiva says that Shiva is the supreme, worship him (they have all the evidences from Mythological texts to stories)

 

sakta- Sakta says Shakti is the supreme, worship her (they have all the evidences from Mythological texts to stories)

 

Vaishnava- Vaishnava says Lord Vishnu is the supreme, worship him (they have all the evidences from Mythological texts to stories)

 

now this doesnt make sense because every sect gives proof that their god is the ultimate

 

how is this possible ?

 

either three of them are true (which is impossible), or all three are wrong

 

Supreme is not a Deity, its something else

[Cheshire Cat]

edit

Edited June 2, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[lino]

hmmmmmmmm

 

as you guys probably know, i am a hindu

 

in hinduism there is overwhelming influence of Deities than in any other religion

 

my question is how much role does a Deity play in gaining enlightenment ?

 

personally i think Deities can help you but it is false that only a deity can make you enlightened

 

for example my father's guru is a devotee of lord Shiva

 

He says only Lord Shiva can grant you enlightenment

 

if you dont worship him, you cant get enlightenment

 

Even other gods have to come to Lord Shiva to achieve enlightenment

 

i dont understand it

 

i mean how realizing your true nature is related to worshiping lord Shiva

 

he gives great emphasis on bhakti

 

but personally i think Bhakti is a dangerous practice for a true spiritual practitioner because it says that God is somewhere else and you have to worship him

 

but the truth is exactly opposite , God is everywhere , actually you are the God

 

i believe that Deities exist and they can help you and even make the road to liberation easy but Tao is the supreme

 

Shiva is not Tao, he is a God emerged from Tao just like we emerged

 

Go for the Tao Directly

 

It is best not to rely on them. Gods have severe issues.

[nine tailed fox]

i wonder why Dao rain Tao edited his reply

[baiqi]

He says only Lord Shiva can grant you enlightenment

 

if you dont worship him, you cant get enlightenment

He's wrong, only if you pray to Jesus, you can go to Heaven. If you don't, you got to Hell. Plain and simple.

 

...Wait! No!

 

Only if you follow the teachings of the Qu'ran you can go to Heaven, and have a good time with virgins. Otherwise, you know, fire, flames, and that forever, of course.

 

No!No! No!

 

Only can go to Heaven those God chose to. You can't change anything. Perhaps you're doomed and will go to Hell anyway.

 

Now I'm being serious:

 

... People who pretend that only their path is the path fo Heaven/enlightenment/Nirvana/(Put your name of the Ultimate achievement here) just don't get anything about spirituality or even life in general.

There were, and still are, people of a very high degree of spirituality in all traditions. Some don't even belong to a tradition, they just did intense soul-searching.

In another thread, I asked you if you had a teacher. Apparently you do, but get as far as possible from this one, he's no good at all. Sorry, dude, you need to search again...

 

Don't worry you can find good gurus if you want to stay in the Hindu tradition.

Edited June 2, 2013 by baiqi

[林愛偉]

hmmmmmmmm

 

as you guys probably know, i am a hindu

 

in hinduism there is overwhelming influence of Deities than in any other religion

 

my question is how much role does a Deity play in gaining enlightenment ? .....................

 

Greetings!

 

Some gods will be able to offer a teaching which will allow one to open up to their inherent wisdom.

Other than that, they can not give one enlightenment.

 

Lord Shiva is simply using an expedient to attract those with affinities to him/her. Then, when their roots of those

affinities have been cultivated strong enough, they will meet Shiva, and thus learn the next stage in cultivation.

The methods Lord Shiva uses are endless, and even during the process, a bliss state, or a state of tasting one's true wisdom may occur, but it is temporary. Once one is in the heavens, and they meet up with Lord Shiva, they will realize the expedient, and understand it's function; thus being able to move on to the next stage.

 

Peace,

Lin

[baiqi]

Oh, just re-read your post, it's your father's Guru, not yours. That's better.

 

You seem to get the point: no deity will get you enlightement, you have to do it yourself.

 

You ask about the role of deities...first ask yourself what is a deity? What do they mean? Some traditions don't use them, others do.

In religious daoism, they consider deities as expressions of the Dao. I wouldn't be surprised if the same applied to Hinduism.

 

Shiva, for example, symbolizes the process of destruction (as opposed to Brahma and Vishnu, creation and sustaining of a form). It's "death" of every thing, but not always in a negative way. I see the idea of "worshipping Shiva" as seing all things, including yourself, impermanent.

Edited June 3, 2013 by baiqi

[Mikeb85]

Associating deities with enlightenment was simply how Hindu kings got the Indian population to convert back from Buddhism (at one point Buddhism was the majority religious belief in the subcontinent), to consolidate their power. Hinduism has adopted all sorts of supercessionist tactics, taking, modifying and adding to Buddhist beliefs. Vajrayana is much the same, adding Hindu and Tantric beliefs to Buddhism, and then disparaging more orthodox forms.

 

Devotion to deities is merely another form of attachment (and in some cases, slavery), which prevents us from attaining our true potential, and deludes us into thinking we're making spiritual progression. Neither the Tao te Ching, Chuang Tzu, nor Pali Canon encourage devotion to deities.