Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[Jeff]

 

Go ahead and reject White. Doesn't mean your New Age stuff is correct.

 

I wasn't rejecting, my question was serious. But, the words of someone residing in "unfabricated awareness" are more interesting to me than an academic.

 

 

P.s. why do you "like" all of your own posts?

[Fū Yue]

 

P.s. why do you "like" all of your own posts?

 

I think it's hilarious.

[RongzomFan]

P.s. why do you "like" all of your own posts?

 

I have a weird sense of humor.

[Jeff]

 

Are you talking about recognizing the instant of unfabricated 'awareness' (ma bcos shes pa skad gcig ma), which is distinguished from the conceptualizing mind?

 

In trekcho, we have precise terms for everything.

 

I don't quite understand what your question is referencing. But, I would agree that unfabricated awareness (as I understand it) is beyond mind.

 

[RongzomFan]

I wasn't rejecting, my question was serious. But, the words of someone residing in "unfabricated awareness" are more interesting to me than an academic.

 

Well even Zen people recognize the "instant of unfabricated 'awareness' (ma bcos shes pa skad gcig ma)".

 

But I wouldn't give a shit what Zen people say.

[RongzomFan]

I don't quite understand what your question is referencing. But, I would agree that unfabricated awareness (as I understand it) is beyond mind.

 

But is that what you are talking about regarding feeling with the heart?

[Jeff]

 

Well even Zen people recognize the "instant of unfabricated 'awareness' (ma bcos shes pa skad gcig ma)".

 

But I wouldn't give a shit what Zen people say.

 

Ok. No problem.

 

I am interested in learning about all paths, but particularly Primoridal paths. I have found three primordial paths so far.

 

[RongzomFan]

Ok. No problem.

 

I am interested in learning about all paths, but particularly Primoridal paths. I have found three primordial paths so far.

 

 

What are those 3 "primordial paths"?

Edited December 15, 2012 by alwayson

[Jeff]

 

But is that what you are talking about regarding feeling with the heart?

 

It is hard for me to say, because I don't know what you exactly mean when you say "unfabricated awareness".

 

Do you have a specific description that you would like to use?

 

[RongzomFan]

It is hard for me to say, because I don't know what you exactly mean when you say "unfabricated awareness".

 

The instant of unfabricated presence is distinguished from the conceptualizing mind.

[Jeff]

 

What are those 3 "primordial paths"?

 

Dzogchen

Thunder - Gnostic Christian

An ancient one that would be translated in something like - Peaceful (or loving) Hunter

 

[RongzomFan]

Dzogchen

Thunder - Gnostic Christian

An ancient one that would be translated in something like - Peaceful (or loving) Hunter

 

 

 

Gnostic Christianity is biggest load of shit ever. Its totally incompatible with basic Madhyamaka, let alone Dzogchen.

 

And yes I looked into it, so I am not just making some kind of uninformed speculation.

[Jeff]

 

The instant of unfabricated presence is distinguished from the conceptualizing mind.

 

Not really a description. With those words, I completely agree. When one resides (or feels with) in the heart, they are beyond conceptializing mind. But, you have not given me enough to say that they are equal/comparable.

 

[RongzomFan]

Teach me how to reside or feel with the heart.

[Jeff]

Teach me how to reside or feel with the heart.

 

No easy answer. I can describe signposts that I have found, but there are always obstructions/issues to be cleared. No sense taking everyone through our back and forth. Moving to PM.

 

[RongzomFan]

In the end Jeff said "I am sorry, but Feeling with the heart is not a technique that can be taught."

 

Along with his previous statement "Feeling with the heart is very hard to describe with words", I conclude he is full of shit.

[thetaoiseasy]

taobums is awesmoe

[三江源]

~ moderator team message~

 

alwayson

 

please edit your posts to be in keeping with forum rules, which means not belittling, demeaning, or insulting. Consider this a moderator warning, any continuance of breaching forum rules will result in a suspension.

 

Please keep civil.

[Jeff]

In the end Jeff said "I am sorry, but Feeling with the heart is not a technique that can be taught."

 

Along with his previous statement "Feeling with the heart is very hard to describe with words", I conclude he is full of shit.

 

Experience is not a technique. Obstructions/issues must always be cleared.

 

Best wishes on your path.

 

[Pero]

Agreed. And that is my point.

 

The Dharmawheel threads that Alwayson presented imply otherwise. Stating no subtle energy (just "winds" like farts ).

 

Sounds like we have no disagreement.

Haha, except I see no contradiction with that view either. In Vajrayana, methods exist that utilize "winds" and whatnot and they work. Thinking of it as something more mysterious like subtle energy or as something more ordinary like nerves or whatever makes no difference.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Ok. No problem.

 

I am interested in learning about all paths, but particularly Primoridal paths. I have found three primordial paths so far.

 

 

 

Gnostic Christianity is biggest load of shit ever. Its totally incompatible with basic Madhyamaka, let alone Dzogchen.

 

And yes I looked into it, so I am not just making some kind of uninformed speculation.

 

Hi Jeff,

 

Not that it would make any difference because I'm unsure if you can run with this, but..

Alan Wallace draws parallels between Dzogchen teachings and Christianity, Advaita Vedanta, Ramana and more in the podcast below from his Dzogchen retreat. He concurs that "they are all pointing at it", the same thing.

 

And,, ha ha.. he says "To point a finger at the essential nature that emerges from all, all of the teachings.. In general people of inferior intelligence are puzzled by the great number of teachings that are said to be very profound and vast."

 

Alan claims that even Padmasambhava said that Dzogchen is a universal truth. He says that Padmasambhava says that Hinduism tradition is pointing to it when they refer to atman, Brahtma..

 

It is pocast number 16. You can skip the meditation section (since you don't practice) and start listening at 58:00.

 

http://archive.org/d...AlanWallace2012

 

He also claims that the Christian tradition had "settling the mind in the natural state" and "awareness of awareness"..

 

It is so nice to hear intelligent, well-educated, gifted teachers life Alan Wallace share the benefits of his insights.

 

TI

Edited December 16, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Jeff]

Hi TI,

 

Thanks for the info on 16. With all of the family holiday activities, I am way behind you on the tapes. I have appreciated the pointers on where to focus first. Any other section you would recommend? You were also definitely right about the descriptions on 13. Very consise and detailed.

 

Thanks again.

 

[Jeff]

 

Haha, except I see no contradiction with that view either. In Vajrayana, methods exist that utilize "winds" and whatnot and they work. Thinking of it as something more mysterious like subtle energy or as something more ordinary like nerves or whatever makes no difference.

 

Very nice to hear. Are you still with me on these quotes?

 

CNN states in (page 31)" Dzogchen: The Self Perfected State"

 

The energy of the individual is closely linked to the external energy, and each can influence the other.

...

Working from the other way round, It is possible to influence the external energy, carrying out what are called "miracles". Such activity is actually the result of having control of one's own energy, through which one obtains the capacity of power over external phenomena.

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Tibetan_Ice, on 14 December 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

 

Hi Pero

So why do they advertise on the website that time and space are irrelevant?

 

They don't.

 

 

Golly, normally, when people quote text on websites, it means that that is what they believe.

 

This is right from the tsegyalgar website:

 

link: http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachings/worldwidetransmissions/

 

''When we are doing this practice together we are unifying in the same state, that famous state in Dzogchen teaching called the primordial state.... that means teacher and students are all in that moment in the primordial state, so in this way there is a possibility to transmit. For transmission there is no distance, if you are far or near it doesn't matter because knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance. So for this reason we can use this method."

 

So, if you can't grasp the fact that they do advertise on the website that "knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance." that it is in plain sight on the website, I'm not sure there is much point in talking to you. Or perhaps you are just saying the opposite of what I am saying just to be dialectic..

 

 

First of all, those instructions are not the actual Flight of the garuda, which was written by Shabkar. They are from Patrul Rinpoche. Second, those instructions are received from a teacher. It might be strange to you, but in Tibet people didn't just read stuff and then do it. They went and receieved transmission.

 

Nope. Those instructions, the PHAT instructions are in the book called "The Flight of the Garuda", revised edition, compiled and translated by Keith Dowman in two places.. First, in the actual "The Flight of the Garuda" text on page 105. It is a commentary by Keith in which he lists several alternate meditation methods, of which PHAT is included. (for practitioners of lessor capacities).

The second occurence is in "The Extraordinary Reality of Soverign Wisdom". Page 167.

 

Right, Dowman's translation isn't restricted. Erik Pema Kunsang's is. And Tony Duff warns in the introduction to receive transmission first. But more importantly than any of them, Shabkar himself says in his book that you need to receive instructions from a teacher.

 

Yes, I don't doubt that. But Alan Wallace says that the knowledge of the initial pointing out instructions, if clearly understood by the recipient, is sufficient. He also says that the conventional method is to understand the view first and then do the meditations, but that you can also do the meditations and then realize the knowledge of transmission from experience. And you know, most of the "Flight of the Garuda" seems to be pointing out instructions.

 

I said:

I am not interested in belonging to clubs or propping up the belief system in order to convince myself of their validity. I would much rather find the truth as I am sure no one club has exclusive rights to it.

 

You said:

Oh yes of course, Shabkar, Longchenpa, Padmasambhava, Paltrul Rinpoche, Jigmed Lingpa,Vimalamitra etc. etc. they were all propping up the belief system in order to convince themselves of their validity. Come on man....

 

Well, let's see what C N Norbu says..

From page 122, "Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected State - Chogyal Namkahi Norbu"

There is a Dzogchen saying that goes, "It doesn't get caught up in limits, it doesn't belong to a school," and limits are , in fact, a typical manifestation of dualism, which is the cause of transmigration. Overcoming our limits means discovering the true condition of "what is", and behaving in such a way that our knowledge will actually match the reality of our existence, in all aspects of body, voice, and mind. This is extremely important".

 

So I think CN Norbu is saying that it is not important to belong to a club or cherry pick teachings based on labels , it is more important to discover "what is".

 

But you know, I don't see why a Dzogchen master such as C N Norbu, couldn't bypass time and space and grant transmissions through the astral plane, or any plane or method. Many gurus, spiritual beings and even Max (kunlun) have the ability to visit other people through the astral planes, or dreams or visions.

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

~ moderator team message~

 

alwayson

 

please edit your posts to be in keeping with forum rules, which means not belittling, demeaning, or insulting. Consider this a moderator warning, any continuance of breaching forum rules will result in a suspension.

 

Please keep civil.

 

I think its insulting to insinuate Dzogchen has resemblances to vague New Age platitudes about energy and light.