Zou huo ru mo ( 走火入魔 ) "catching fire entering demon"

[寒月 Hanyue]

Think I will make another thread to respond to the other issues, don't want to derail this thread any more.

 

Personally I have found many meditations have made me more ungrounded and harder to be around, I wouldnt go as far to say that it was qigong psychosis though. But the issue is that many methods can bring to the surface buried emotions and issues, so they might make you horrible company and angry and give you many dark night's of the soul as a means of purification, so if you confuse this process with unstable practice or psychosis then you may give up before you make it out the other side.

 

Doesn't have to be qigong "psychosis", shen disorders and qigong disorders can range in intensity, "psychosis" and the "zuo huo ru mo" are at the more extreme end and have the most severe symptoms.

 

I agree with you, how do you differentiate?

 

It is because of this mis-understanding that many plow on when they should not, but think it'll get better with time, but it actually makes it worse.

 

I have been taught "If it can't hurt you, it can't help you", but I've also been taught, that Chinese arts (not saying the same is true for other paradigms) there is no real tradition of "You have to/should get worse BEFORE you get better."

 

The point of this thread is to help people to learn to be more aware, and discerning in their practice, so they may avoid potential problems that can be avoided.

 

To clarify that, there is a BIG difference between;

• That which is inside of you that is being cleared out (physically, emotionally, mentally)
  
• That which is changing and affecting you resulting in negative symptoms (physically, emotionally, mentally)
  

If you have not learned to differentiate, and or, have no guidance from someone who can, then how you proceed is up to you and your own responsibility. In fact I will go so far as to say, that a large part of the learning curve for most people, is actually how to do this, How to practice in a way that benefits them rather than being detrimental.

 

How do you address arising issues? Simply plow on regardless, or take stock?

 

Best

[寒月 Hanyue]

No way are younger folk 'emotionally stunted' over here these days. My generation for sure, stiff upper lip and all that but these days we've turned into Italians almost. Every time you turn on the TV some twonk is emoting or blubbing over a broken finger nail or something equally tragic to them.

I blame Princess Diana, since she bought the farm England sems to have become a cesspit of vicarious emoting.

 

Ouch,

[skydog]

not really so sure I understand the intent or meaning behind the original post.

 

I know Im going through a deep transformation...sometimes extreme sense of confidence, power, yang comes up, sometimes past anger at being treated a certain way comes up resulting in a boundary, sometimes a belief - eg when I was 17 (oooh everyone is selfish they only care about themselves) comes up listening to eckhart tolle but its kind of a phase...the term psychosis is a bit strong to me, kind of like doctors who give a special name to every kind of symptom possible to make things look more complicated.

 

Also sad some wise posters are not posting, but yeh it is nice to have a variety of opinions and not just be bound to one opinion and the master says that is right everything else is wrong, that leads to dogma and hierarchy of knowledge, I remember reading in one of my favourite books shaking medicine, how as soon as the shaking became structurised and theoretical then it would lead to it becoming banned and hidden from the general public to keep power. Of course, not everyone here has 15 years qigong experience, but many have experience with different things and differing perspectives bring a lot of life here.

 

Also am not so sure on this point about charlatans who have real powers and wisdom to teach, i mean yeh its an interesting neglected perspective, but most people here come for wisdom and "powers" in some form so this doesnt really make sense to me, who can we call a charlatan and who can we not.

[GrandmasterP]

Never come across QiGong psychosis but have met a very few students who turned out to have prexisting mental health issues that QiGong seemed to highlight if not exacerbate.

From my own side the only negative physical effect I have ever had meditation wise was years ago almost getting piles after a zazen week 'retreat' in Scotland. My erse was stiff for a month afterwards.

[thetaoiseasy]

Thanks for reading,

 

Taoiseasy

Edited July 19, 2013 by thetaoiseasy

[寒月 Hanyue]

not really so sure I understand the intent or meaning behind the original post.

 

.the term psychosis is a bit strong to me,

 

Let me snip this is in the bud before it goes any further

 

This thread is not solely about psychosis.

 

I did not mention it in my OP, with a brief re-read, as a term it came up in post 25! I used the terms 氣功偏差 qigong deviation, and 走火入魔 zou huo ru mo. Now 'zuo hou ru mo' is a colloqiual term that refers more to shen disorders that you may refer to as "qi psychosis", however 'psychosis' is a loaded term (aren't they all ) that carries connotations that don't always fit with shen disorders.

 

Zuo hou ru mo, doesn't just apply to actual mental instability, hallucinations and so forth. It can simply manifest in the belief that what you are doing is correct and leading you to the Dao when it in fact is not and is creating imbalance in your system. Which is still deluded thinking.

 

This thread is for people to share stories of qigong deviations that can arise from incorrect practice. Be they physical, emotional, or mental. See my example posts.

 

There are MANY stories of this type dotted all over this board, the point was to allow a space where people could share in ONE place. You don't have to, no one does, it just meant the option was there, that you could, IF you had something you felt might help others.

 

Instead it seems people would rather debate the relevance and such like ??

 

Strange given the quickness for posts to appear with such stories when certain actual methodologies are written about. Then warnings abound, sometimes harshly so.

 

I apologise for lack of clarity in my OP, it kinda streamed from my subconscious in it's own way

 

Hope this clarifies,

[寒月 Hanyue]

Never come across QiGong psychosis but have met a very few students who turned out to have prexisting mental health issues that QiGong seemed to highlight if not exacerbate.

From my own side the only negative physical effect I have ever had meditation wise was years ago almost getting piles after a zazen week 'retreat' in Scotland. My erse was stiff for a month afterwards.

 

Yes, it has been pointed out that psychotherapy and meditation are not the same thing. The former is about returning an individual to a state of perceived functioning balance, the latter is trying to use that functioning balance as a platform for further development. Now the two are often confused, some with problems are taught rudimentary forms of meditation, or people with imbalances here of the benefits and pursue meditation.

 

Okay, noted. Week long sitting retreats in cold damp environments can lead to a stiff erse!!

 

Best

[寒月 Hanyue]

It's not the method that causes many students to have side effects. They would have mental problems even if they didn't practice. Qigong just speeds up your evolution.

 

Yes, it's sad. This is why I feel a teacher is required. One who has enough time in, and who is discerning enough.

 

Best,

[Jetsun]

Doesn't have to be qigong "psychosis", shen disorders and qigong disorders can range in intensity, "psychosis" and the "zuo huo ru mo" are at the more extreme end and have the most severe symptoms.

 

I agree with you, how do you differentiate?

 

It is because of this mis-understanding that many plow on when they should not, but think it'll get better with time, but it actually makes it worse.

 

I have been taught "If it can't hurt you, it can't help you", but I've also been taught, that Chinese arts (not saying the same is true for other paradigms) there is no real tradition of "You have to/should get worse BEFORE you get better."

 

The point of this thread is to help people to learn to be more aware, and discerning in their practice, so they may avoid potential problems that can be avoided.

 

To clarify that, there is a BIG difference between;

• That which is inside of you that is being cleared out (physically, emotionally, mentally)
  
• That which is changing and affecting you resulting in negative symptoms (physically, emotionally, mentally)
  

If you have not learned to differentiate, and or, have no guidance from someone who can, then how you proceed is up to you and your own responsibility. In fact I will go so far as to say, that a large part of the learning curve for most people, is actually how to do this, How to practice in a way that benefits them rather than being detrimental.

 

How do you address arising issues? Simply plow on regardless, or take stock?

 

Best

 

In my own case I have tried to abide by the rule not to go over 70% capacity and listen to my heart, personally I have usually backed off if I start getting too strong symptoms so I tend not to power through, but I am in a different position than many people because of the condition of my nervous system. Now I don't really do any Qigong at all though as I always end up doing it with the wrong intent, so really being honest about why you are doing it and the intent you bring towards doing it is very important.

 

In Jane Alexander's account of her healing herself using Bruce Franzis Taoist methods she basically says it is likely you are going to get worse before you get better, maybe even much worse, she says on her website that you might have to take out many months from your job and live in less social living arrangements and suffer much worsening symptoms if your condition is anywhere near as bad as her's and you are determined to push through to the other side using such Taoist methods, although she is an extreme case. Others have said that other meditation methods don't have the same effect though so you may not HAVE to get worse before you get better, sometimes the loosening of the knots and tensions can be gentle and easy.

[GrandmasterP]

'Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg'...

Not in some of my classes it doesn't.

'Golden Rooster topples over whilst trying to stand on one leg' can be more like it.

If ever they are going to keel over it's either that or 'Search Horizon & Clouds'.

We lose more students through those two...

[GrandmasterP]

70% of max effort is wise.

Who is Bruce Frantzis? (any links please?)

Asked that a while ago and no one answered.

[Jetsun]

70% of max effort is wise.

Who is Bruce Frantzis? (any links please?)

Asked that a while ago and no one answered.

 

Bruce Kumar Frantzis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Frantzis http://www.energyarts.com/ has put out a lot of Taoist material to do with meditation, Tai Chi, Bagua, Qigong, etc a whole load of stuff. I think his books on the Taoist Water Method are really good.

[GrandmasterP]

Thank you Jetsun I'll look him up, much obliged sir.

[johndoe2012]

.

Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[Birch]

Hanging around on TTB's seemed to confirm the 'only way is through' idea. The ideas of 'dark night', 'detox', and the more recent from Mark Griffin at Hardlight on kundalini 'Wait, you mean I'm going to feel worse?' (to paraphrase).

 

I won't get into physical symptoms, I will however get into 'social' issues briefly.

IME increasing awareness lead me to look at social behaviour very differently. At one point I found I couldn't stand the constant posturing, the 'say one thing, believe another, act another' that I perceived all around me. People whose company I had enjoyed became barely tolerable. One of the reasons it did was because as awareness grew, the less I tolerated being talked down to, or flaked on, or taken advantage of. In the process of standing up for myself, several people had pretty intense reactions and the relationships ended.

 

I've never felt more lonely. And there's never been anything better for me.

 

In other words, my suggestion is that the measure for social issues ought to be taken before, during and after progress in qi-gong.

But clearly, my 'problems' were already there before I started.

[Cat Pillar]

I expect to face something similar in the social realm as my practice deepens, and am already seeing the signs of it beginning. The more I practice, the more I realize what I really want and who I really am.

 

Who I am is not any of the things I thought I was supposed to be, nor any of the things most people and religions tell me I should be.

 

But the more I get to know who I really am, the easier it is to accept. Even the shadows and darkness are things I'm learning to cherish, because they are a part of me.

[skydog]

Thank you for your reply.

 

WIth all my respect, I respectfully disagree with TRYING to be virtous. Everyone wants to be virtous, that is common goal, the question is how. Virtue is the same thing as "be good", and this is subjective, sometimes when you are surrounded by psychopaths you will realise be good doesnt always mean be a doormat, a pushover, give all your money away. Also by trying to be virtous as they mention in the tao te ching you lay the way for disharmony, you can be peripherally aware of morality but only peripherally, if the thought of virtue and morality consumes you then when anger occurs you go "must be good, must be virtuous" cant be bad. and then this creates a lot resistance and you focus on what you dont want to be unconsciously.. Whereas being relaxed and empty (really there is no person who is empty there is just emptiness...and virtue happens..relaxed versus aroused virtue happens..I agree with taoiseasy in that not great to indulge in negative emotions, I just have an intuitive feel that my post about non repression was labelled as "that guy sinansencer is posting evil, stupid demonic nonsense"

 

My opinion though

[GrandmasterP]

Hanging around on TTB's seemed to confirm the 'only way is through' idea. The ideas of 'dark night', 'detox', and the more recent from Mark Griffin at Hardlight on kundalini 'Wait, you mean I'm going to feel worse?' (to paraphrase).

 

I won't get into physical symptoms, I will however get into 'social' issues briefly.

IME increasing awareness lead me to look at social behaviour very differently. At one point I found I couldn't stand the constant posturing, the 'say one thing, believe another, act another' that I perceived all around me. People whose company I had enjoyed became barely tolerable. One of the reasons it did was because as awareness grew, the less I tolerated being talked down to, or flaked on, or taken advantage of. In the process of standing up for myself, several people had pretty intense reactions and the relationships ended.

 

I've never felt more lonely. And there's never been anything better for me.

 

In other words, my suggestion is that the measure for social issues ought to be taken before, during and after progress in qi-gong.

But clearly, my 'problems' were already there before I started.

.

 

...................

We get quite a few people coming to class as a life changer. They have decided to have a change, maybe broken relationship, come off the booze and want different folk to socialise with, all sorts of reasons but a common theme of wanting to make a change and do something different.

Some stay, more come for a while then move on to something e.se but it's all good.

 

Every January we run a taster course and it is always ram jam full with a waiting list, come March maybe 10% book on for a full course the rest pop in or we don't see them again.

Point is taking that step to make the change, once that's done you are already half way there.

QiGong is our solution but it's just one solution amongst countless alternatives.

It takes intestinal fortitude to look at your life , say "no more of this crap" and then do something about it. Most people just whinge and plod on regardless. All respect to you sister K.

[GrandmasterP]

Apropos these young lads on here with their masochistic cultivation talk, and it's always young lads. It's a phase they are going through and they'll grow out of it.

Even the con men who sell these hard 'cultivations' don't actually cultivate them. Apart from when they are taking money from fools and then very briefly and only for show.

Always of course excepting some of the MMA types and those tend to be borderline psychopaths. Even psychopathic symptoms moderate after age 40 hence you don't see many over 40 in MMA audiences.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Apropos these young lads on here with their masochistic cultivation talk, and it's always young lads. It's a phase they are going through and they'll grow out of it.

Even the con men who sell these hard 'cultivations' don't actually cultivate them. Apart from when they are taking money from fools and then very briefly and only for show.

 

True and even more true,

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thank you for your reply.

 

If this is in response to me?

 

First let me say, while I quoted your post, it was simply as the most obvious example of overly focusing on a small aspect of the wider subject this thread is about, ie 'psychosis' over qigong deviation (I know , I know it's my own fault for naming the thread 'zuo huo ru mo' who most know as qi psychosis, but gosh darn it, it's catchier no ).

 

Second, I never said anything about 'virtue' . If you want the truth, I often ignore much of what you post, simply because when I read it, it appears you only skim read the threads and feel a desire to post without actually having understood what anyone is talking about. Maybe I'm wrong on that, intention-perception disconnect on my part etc, but its why, for what it's worth

 

Third, I want to say, I want you to contribute, I certainly don't want anyone to feel they can't/shouldn't contribute to a thread. But seriously, read what you've posted, does it have anything to do with qigong deviation? No, you're talking about relativity when it comes to behaviour and peoples perception of it, or internal moral dilemma with it. Interesting stuff for sure, can it be related to qigong deviation, i'm sure it could. But not the way you're talking about it. So in attempts to keep a thread on track...

 

Fourth, 'virtue' is not the same as "being good", maybe you should look it up in either an old English dictionary, or a Chinese one. It's waht my teachers made me do. Don't take what YOU feel a word means as always what others mean when they use a term, words are tricky sonsa bitches like that Can be fun to explore a wider meaning to words,

 

All the best,

Edited November 13, 2012 by snowmonki

[GrandmasterP]

Hope this isn't too far off topic but it's as much for my mate Sinan as a anyone else.

GM Chang taught us this and I teach it still.

QiGong salute id a fist with your palm over it and bow.

Five fingers one palm = 6

KFCPKR

(Think Kentucky Fried Chicken poker.. It helps to remind)

KFC PKR

the QiGong attribute of...

Kindness

Faithfulness

Courage

Propriety

Knowledge

Responsibility

 

Get those six into deep memory and all you have to do next is manifest them. Always, everywhere and to everyone you have dealings with.

 

Job done.

 

:-)

 

[寒月 Hanyue]

To K and Cat Pillar,

 

The social aspect and awakening can be REALLY hard!

 

One of my teachers advises people to approach things as though being an "inter-planetary anthropologist", to do your best to approach social interaction as though being a 'participant observer'. You are there, you don't fully understand, but that is okay, you watch and observe and remain detached.

 

I have actually found it can be harder when it is your own 'culture', when around other ethnicities it can be easier, there is an automatic 'otherness' when culture clash hits. But experiencing culture clash within your own culture can be weird and very alienating. There is also a much greater expectation for you to conform to accepted groups within your own culture, foreigners get more leeway .

 

I'll post more about this area next...

 

Best,

[GrandmasterP]

We are as "strangers in a strange land".

[寒月 Hanyue]

Another friend, lovely person. Eventually we found out we were both interested in healing and so forth. Turns out they had done Reiki with a teacher, the teacher had opened them up, but not taught or explained how to then live or adopt to the new changes in perception and so on. They found that they simply did not understand people as much anymore, why they wanted what they did, why they did what they did, why they looked at things the way they did. They found that when they tried to talk to people about their own feelings and views, people thought they were odd. I want to say here, that given the people I have met over the years (people who talk to God in the middle of a conversation with you, people who communicate with the great whale in the sky (yes you heard me right)) they were not all that out there in their views!

 

This individual had spent years becoming more and more lonely and feeling isolated even though surrounded by friend and family. I couldn't believe I was the first person they had found that they felt understood them. Part of it was they had not been taught any new frame of reference for the shift to a different way of living and perceiving the world around them. Instead they had come to feel they were the only person like that.

 

For some this might not be, but I do see this as 'qigong deviation', negative issues arising out of energy practice. Albeit, more likely from an unaware teacher. It wasn't that the method, 'what was done', was bad, had this been done in a better way they would simply have awoken in a pleasant way to a new unfolding reality. Instead it led to isolation, misery and a disconnect from people and the world. I want to say that it wasn't a one shot deal, a weekend workshop. There had been continued contact for a period of time.

 

Places like the 'Bums, and similar are great in helping a sense of community and allowing people to know they are not alone in experiencing what they are. For me this is meant to come from your teacher, and your brother and sister students. But often it doesn't, or people have spontaneous awakenings, or start out on their own.

 

Even though I was taught to keep my mouth shut (never was any good at it) I post here, and help moderate other lists, because of the support I've had, and because of meeting with people or benefit so much from hearing others and getting to realise they aren't as alone as they thought. As I'm sure others have found too, it is actually more the pm's, e-mails and private comments in person that keep me on the forum.

 

 

 

Best,

Edited November 13, 2012 by snowmonki