Five Important Themes of the DDJ

[GrandmasterP]

On topic and this is simply yet another reading. Ch55 and that last line...

'Not-TAO soon ends'

...could be interpreted as indicating the physical death of a non-cultivator..

All readings are equally valid and, equally partial; as Ch 1 line 1 of TTC gently reminds us..

[Jeff]

You're never alone with a channeled spirit eh Flowing Hands?

With deep respect Lao-Tzu is a construct and TTC a synopsis of extant wisdom, distilled. Spirits may be echoes of a personality or hungry ghosts. It's important to know who or what one is dealng with and you do not.

Whilst in no wise doubting the veracity of your own guide Li Er s/he aint Lao Tzu mate and any opinions s/he might have on TTC have as much, but no more veracity; than anyone elses be those from this side of life or any other.

Shamanic role is that of addressing live folks issues now not catechising ancient texts.

Impersonating spirits and how to deal with those is an early part of mediums training. The presumption being that such work takes place within,in order to serve; a community . Lonely imaginings or wishful thinking of themselves may bring solace but they have little or no value beyond the purely individual. If you are UK based I strongly recommend your joning a development circle in one of the spiritualistic focus Taoist centres.

 

Quite a judgement... Do you perceive (or believe in the existence of) immortals or divine beings?

 

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff,

 

I have been watching the debate. In the chapter 55 Li Erh is talkng about a wise person who is apprenticed to becoming an Immortal. They therefore have to experience and know many, many things. Contrary to popular belief they will also experience the union of man and woman (sexual intercourse). Because the sage is one of the ten thousand things he/she will follow what is natural also. Being wise and having understanding about the 'way' in a real way (enlightenment is a physical realisation), they can then become devine (they can skip the process of being reborn and live forever as an enlightend spirit master).

 

I would argue that Li Erh's meaning of "union" includes sexual intercourse, but also has a much deeper meaning. And, that it is directly tied to the difference between "realization" and "divine". The Tibetan guru Naropa speaks of the alchemy well in the heart practice of the six yogas. In the "completion stage", one first learns consort yoga and the balancing of male & female energies. The balancing leads to greater oneness through the heart giving access to true deity (or immortal) yoga.

 

[GrandmasterP]

An intuit.

Trained mediums never judge Jeff.

HTH

[flowing hands]

You're never alone with a channeled spirit eh Flowing Hands?

With deep respect Lao-Tzu is a construct and TTC a synopsis of extant wisdom, distilled. Spirits may be echoes of a personality or hungry ghosts. It's important to know who or what one is dealng with and you do not.

Whilst in no wise doubting the veracity of your own guide Li Er s/he aint Lao Tzu mate and any opinions s/he might have on TTC have as much, but no more veracity; than anyone elses be those from this side of life or any other.

Shamanic role is that of addressing live folks issues now not catechising ancient texts.

Impersonating spirits and how to deal with those is an early part of mediums training. The presumption being that such work takes place within,in order to serve; a community . Lonely imaginings or wishful thinking of themselves may bring solace but they have little or no value beyond the purely individual. If you are UK based I strongly recommend your joning a development circle in one of the spiritualistic focus Taoist centres.

 

Well mate, mr Leicester spiritualist church, where is your training and your tradition? I think before you start putting your opinions out about other peoples abilities and what they are doing you need to get your own house in order. It seems to me 'fish and chip' pyschic suppers, you talk a load of 'cods' wallap. My advice to you is not to be criticising others who have recieved genuine training from a traditional path that has been established for thousands of years and not some mish mash you've picked up at the local fish shop!

 

By the way I am part of a Temple group that has temples mostly in south east asia and I have many spiritual brothers and sisters who follow the same Immortals and practice even in Europe. One of them is a very well known native Chinese martial artist, who is my spiritual brother.

Edited October 11, 2012 by flowing hands

[Marblehead]

Hi Jeff,

 

I have been watching the debate. In the chapter 55 Li Erh is talkng about a wise person who is apprenticed to becoming an Immortal. They therefore have to experience and know many, many things. Contrary to popular belief they will also experience the union of man and woman (sexual intercourse). Because the sage is one of the ten thousand things he/she will follow what is natural also. Being wise and having understanding about the 'way' in a real way (enlightenment is a physical realisation), they can then become devine (they can skip the process of being reborn and live forever as an enlightend spirit master).

Nice to see the new life in this thread.

 

Flowing Hands, nice post (from your perspective).

[GrandmasterP]

Humble apologies FH no attack was inteded nor implied and I am mortified any might be perceived. If you are happy with what you are getting then that's fine as I said above. All readings are equally valid whatever their source. No one reading of TTC whatever its source on this side or from elsewhere has any greater validity than any other reading. They are te same thing... readings.

Good to hear you are in te UK pop into the centre and see us if you are ever up this way. Tea and cakes will be on me. The Spiritual Training Centre/Dojo is upstairs above the Spiritualist Church. There's something on every day and most evenings too.

[GrandmasterP]

As per that 'on topic' above.....

 

Ch 55 and that last line....

 

'Not-TAO soon ends'

 

...might that be interpreted as indicating the physical death of a non-cultivator...

 

What do you think FH (or anyone else)?

[Jeff]

As per that 'on topic' above.....

 

Ch 55 and that last line....

 

'Not-TAO soon ends'

 

...might that be interpreted as indicating the physical death of a non-cultivator...

 

What do you think FH (or anyone else)?

 

I would agree that it would apply to the concept of physical death. But, i think your translation may be misleading as there is nothing that is "not-TAO". It might be better to say that anything not "in sync with the flow" or "arising from" is impermanent. Something as simple as the emotion of anger or the desire for a new car would be a good example.

 

[GrandmasterP]

Yep I can see that Jeff. Not that one should but I have heard that text used (not by me) 'against' someone having a pop at cultivation in general and Taoists in particular.

Along the lines of...

"Well you go right on believing that young man.. until you wake up!"

[GrandmasterP]

FH and this is just FYI. It is in no way intended as a status staement or anything other than for info...

You asked me ....

where is your training and your tradition?...

 

On my last award certificate it says

'Passed Senior Duan Ranking 9'

That's issued by an international organization based in China but with branches throughout the world. I'm insured via the Holistic Health Insurance Corporation (for £5,000,000 professional indemnity) as a QiGong and TaiChi Instructor.

In 30 odd years we've never had a claim against us. This local centre has over 200 members of whom 30 or so come to QiGong along with about the same number of non members. We are a not for profit operation. It is i9n a poor area of the city and there are fish and chip shops plus kebab houses etc nearby. One such 'chip shop' owned by a Chinese family related to the famous Gok Wan donates fish and chip suppers once a month for the workers at our centre. That's the sort of people we get in Leicester, really nice.

We're not a charity but not a business either. We are not religious Taoists, anyone can come along, there is no 'belief system, sect or lineage' to sign up to.

However some who come do like to perform rituals such as chanting for Quan Shi Yin nembutsu and anyone familiar with a working Taoist temple would feel right at home . there afe martial arts classes, we have fortune telling, socials, there's all sorts going on.

 

We are neither posh, exclusive nor 'holy', just some folk having a go. Doing what we like amongst the like minded.

As I once attempted to explain to chums in the 'British Taoist Association' before its effective demise. Wearing a shiny rayon dressing gown and silly hat does not a Taoist 'priest' make.

No more about us. That's it but HTH.

[flowing hands]

Humble apologies FH no attack was inteded nor implied and I am mortified any might be perceived. If you are happy with what you are getting then that's fine as I said above. All readings are equally valid whatever their source. No one reading of TTC whatever its source on this side or from elsewhere has any greater validity than any other reading. They are te same thing... readings.

Good to hear you are in te UK pop into the centre and see us if you are ever up this way. Tea and cakes will be on me. The Spiritual Training Centre/Dojo is upstairs above the Spiritualist Church. There's something on every day and most evenings too.

 

I think we need to take this back to the female principle and not derail the thread. The female principle is linked to all of the other four. Without real love, a love and understanding for all things one cannot realise true enlightenment. Without altering and understanding the 'self', one cannot realise true love. In finding true spiritual love one must apply the female principle to ones life. All five themes are related but we have not really touched properly on the female principle.

 

For your information I do not 'channel' Li Erh or any other Immortal. I beg them to come, It may take some time before they come and it is a physical presence not a mental one. So Li Erh is a real person who lived approximately 600BC. He wrote down the DDJ then on bamboo slithers. He died and his spirit became a great Immortal. There are many Daoist shamans, particularly in southeast asia, where Li Erh is prayed to and begged for healing and help. In my own temple in malaysia, many native Chinese shamans told me that out of the three Immortals, Li Erh was the most difficult to get to come. He is a top Immortal and so does not go to teach or draw holy water for anyone. So having come to me to teach me his DDJ was a great honour. In fact I am the only one he has ever done this for in 2600 years, thats how important it was. It was important because of what I was told and shown was to befall the earth and his rightful teaching was important to have now when we all need to really asses our spiritual understanding of the world around us.

[Jeff]

I think we need to take this back to the female principle and not derail the thread. The female principle is linked to all of the other four. Without real love, a love and understanding for all things one cannot realise true enlightenment. Without altering and understanding the 'self', one cannot realise true love. In finding true spiritual love one must apply the female principle to ones life. All five themes are related but we have not really touched properly on the female principle.

...

 

Then... Let's go back to the female principle. I would agree that it is very important. As stated in chapter 55 (and also in earlier posts found in Tibetan Buddhism & Gnostic Christianity). I would just describe it more as true "balance".

 

[GrandmasterP]

Well that sounds pretty good to me bro. If it's constructive it aint a hungry ghost. I've never had anyone especially learned or holy coming through usually it's someone's old Grandad talking about former pets etc. just routine evidence but folk seem to like that so there ya go. I did have Joanna Southcott for a few years but she's moved onwards and upwards long enough since.

there's a physical circle at ours on Friday eenings and they get materialisations and all sorts so i have no problem at all with manifestations, they are as real as you and me.

 

On topic... this Female principle then... I can see where you are coming from in that ch 55 in one sense but in another I just feel that it's maybe less to do with physical aspects of male/female relationships and interactions as something deeper than that.

Maybe as a metaphor boffing works but I don't know.

Have always felt the same with the tantrists. When you see them at their get togethers there's not much to choose between what they get up to and what L understand to be what goes on at certain louche parties. Our family fest at Osho Leela was just after tantra week this year and some from that stayed on from that for our week.

Anyy-hoo would love a copy of your Li Erh TTC so if you are able to send a link I'll purchase one.

Waemest best regards.

Pete

[GrandmasterP]

. edited out duplicate post

Edited October 11, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[flowing hands]

Well that sounds pretty good to me bro. If it's constructive it aint a hungry ghost. I've never had anyone especially learned or holy coming through usually it's someone's old Grandad talking about former pets etc. just routine evidence but folk seem to like that so there ya go. I did have Joanna Southcott for a few years but she's moved onwards and upwards long enough since.

there's a physical circle at ours on Friday eenings and they get materialisations and all sorts so i have no problem at all with manifestations, they are as real as you and me.

 

On topic... this Female principle then... I can see where you are coming from in that ch 55 in one sense but in another I just feel that it's maybe less to do with physical aspects of male/female relationships and interactions as something deeper than that.

Maybe as a metaphor boffing works but I don't know.

Have always felt the same with the tantrists. When you see them at their get togethers there's not much to choose between what they get up to and what L understand to be what goes on at certain louche parties. Our family fest at Osho Leela was just after tantra week this year and some from that stayed on from that for our week.

Anyy-hoo would love a copy of your Li Erh TTC so if you are able to send a link I'll purchase one.

Waemest best regards.

Pete

 

go to my website

[Marblehead]

Then... Let's go back to the female principle. I would agree that it is very important. As stated in chapter 55 (and also in earlier posts found in Tibetan Buddhism & Gnostic Christianity). I would just describe it more as true "balance".

 

I would be reading if it happens. (I prefer describing it as the state of rest or the state of return.)

[Jeff]

I would be reading if it happens. (I prefer describing it as the state of rest or the state of return.)

 

Then we shall have to make sure it happens (no matter what the distractions). Do you (or anyone) have a section referencing the female principle that you would like to focus on? I picked the last one.

 

 

(p.s. rest or return is pretty good, but primordial state is my favorite.)

[Marblehead]

 

 

 

(p.s. rest or return is pretty good, but primordial state is my favorite.)

Valid. Henricks, Chapter 42, Line 4:

"And the Three gave birth to the ten thousand things."

 

Only the female gives birth. Female -> Feminine -> Yin.

 

(In my mind the Three are Yin, Yang, and Mystery [potential]. Thus the Manifest.)

[Jeff]

Valid. Henricks, Chapter 42, Line 4:

"And the Three gave birth to the ten thousand things."

Only the female gives birth. Female -> Feminine -> Yin.

(In my mind the Three are Yin, Yang, and Mystery [potential]. Thus the Manifest.)

 

Chapter 42 is a very good choice. Since it is his thread, here are SFH's first four lines...

 

The Dao begot one,

one gave birth and then there was two.

Two begot three.

And so the Ten Thousand Things were formed.

 

I like your concept of "mystery". Is it somehow different than manifest?

 

Is the three a separate "thing"? Or, an example (the first) of how everything is created/manifest?

 

Also, do you think this section also describes the foundation for dualistic thought?

 

 

edit - added italics

Edited October 12, 2012 by Jeff

[Marblehead]

I like your concept of "mystery". Is it somehow different than manifest?

 

Is the three a separate "thing"? Or, an example (the first) of how everything is created/manifest?

 

Also, do you think this section also describes the foundation for dualistic thought?

 

Hi Jeff,

 

Hehehe. Those are really tough questions to answer that you have asked.

 

Let me start out by reminding anyone who reads this that I consider myself a Philosophical Taoist and a Materialist. Therefore I must harmonize what the TTC teaches me with what Science teaches me.

 

Tao gave birth to Mystery (potential), the Big Bang. (Never mind the cause.)

 

According to Science this potential was Hydrogen (I like calling it Mystery).

 

One gave birth to Two: Chi (Yin and Yang), Science - Helium (Now we have two, Hydrogen and Helium)

 

So now we have Mystery, Yin and Yang. The Three gave birth to the Manifest, that is, the energy of Chi interacting with potential produced the physical universe.

 

Scientifically, my understanding is that the interaction of Helium and Hydrogen (don't ask me how Hydrogen gave birth to Helium) gave birth to solid particles which resulted in stars being born which resulted in other elements being created.

 

So, to your questions:

 

Yes, Mystery and Manifest are two different states of One. Mystery being potential (perhaps Dark Matter?) and Manifest being the physical universe. Then there is Chi, perhaps Dark Energy?

 

So following this understanding (or misunderstanding) as soon as One gave birth to Two Duality was born. Duality is real, we could not have the physical universe (the Ten Thousand Things) without Duality (this and that). So Duality is not something negative or 'bad', it just is.

 

Ah!, how to properly speak to "Three", or even "Two".

 

One, we can understand. The totality of what is and what is yet to be and what is not all clumped together. No differentiation. Tao in motion? Yeah, The Dynamic Tao.

 

From One we have Two. In my mind it must be Mystery (potential) and Chi (pure energy).

 

From Two we have Three. That would have to be Mystery, Yin and Yang (the duality of Chi).

 

From Three we have the Ten Thousand Things. This would be Yin and Yang acting on Mystery (potential).

 

I may have just confused myself, I hope I didn't confuse anyone else.

[GrandmasterP]

Old PL story on the threefold nature.

Mrs. Chen is called Mommy by the Chen children. Darling by Mr Chen and Daughter in Law by Grandmother Chen.

[Jeff]

Hi Marblehead,

 

Thank you for your words. I consider myself more experimental than philosophical, but I would agree with much of what you have said. A few more comments before we move on to the rest of section 42 (unless someone else has a comment)...

 

Would it be fair to say that your concept of mystery would be similar to the concept of pre-creation/unmanifest intent?

 

Also, for the reader interested at the level of "mind"... Consider the words again...

 

The Dao begot one,

one gave birth and then there was two.

Two begot three.

And so the Ten Thousand Things were formed.

 

When one declares that something is "good", then that obviously leads to the opposite concept of "bad" (otherwise there could be no good). Then these two concepts lead us to perceived differences. Next thing you know, we form judgements on many thousands of things and have the buddhist concept of duality. Do you think that also fits with the above passage?

 

 

( p.s. Hydrogen and Helium seem hard to start with... Why not protons & electrons (or subatomic particles), you can also extend the male/female principle to them?)

[Marblehead]

Hi Marblehead,

 

Hi Jeff, Just letting you know that I have read your post. Responding will take some time and I must go outside and clean one of the pond filters before it gets too hot and I get too lazy. I will be back soon to speak to what you have said and asked me.

[dawei]

I am glad this steered back on course. If someone wants to question FH's background they can use one of the other existing threads which is meant for that.

 

This issue of the female ending up in subatomic particle discussion is interesting on some level and let's see where it goes but if someone feels this is worthy of a deeper discussion into the 'science of the DDJ' maybe that would be interesting too.