what if even

[Vajrahridaya]

is only a temporary pleasure..?

 

sigh...

[Vajrahridaya]

of course this is ms v once again

[Harmonious Emptiness]

There's an anecdote about Thich Nhat Hanh where a student asks him a similar question -what is the point when everything is transitory?- his response was approx., "see that cup over there on that shelf? Someone gave me that cup. It's very special to me, very beautiful, and fragile. I know that one day, someone will accidentally knock it off the shelf and it will be shattered. There's nothing I can do about this without putting it in a box and never enjoying it. So, I just enjoy it all I can until that time, knowing that I won't have it forever. The same answer applies to this life and all those things in it. We love them as long as we can, while we can, knowing that they will not last forever. Then when they are gone, we have (hopefully) developed sufficient detachment with impermanent things to let them go. But until that time, I'm going to appreciate this cup with full presence."

 

 

in "God in All Worlds" compiled by Lucinda Vardey

[Lucky7Strikes]

There's an anecdote about Thich Nhat Hanh where a student asks him a similar question -what is the point when everything is transitory?- his response was approx., "see that cup over there on that shelf? Someone gave me that cup. It's very special to me, very beautiful, and fragile. I know that one day, someone will accidentally knock it off the shelf and it will be shattered. There's nothing I can do about this without putting it in a box and never enjoying it. So, I just enjoy it all I can until that time, knowing that I won't have it forever. The same answer applies to this life and all those things in it. We love them as long as we can, while we can, knowing that they will not last forever. Then when they are gone, we have (hopefully) developed sufficient detachment with impermanent things to let them go. But until that time, I'm going to appreciate this cup with full presence."

 

 

in "God in All Worlds" compiled by Lucinda Vardey

That was beautiful!

[Lucky7Strikes]

is only a temporary pleasure..?

 

sigh...

I'm not sure which angle this question comes from. As in, that all pleasures we experience in meditation is temporary or that meditation is just another hobby, like bicycling, that can give momentary joy that is nonetheless transitory.

 

If it is the former, in my experience the pleasures of meditation have cumulative effect in our lives if we sustain efforts to continue the practice in day to day living and not just on the meditation cushion.

 

If it is the latter, we'd have no way of knowing until there is insight and ability to see and experience life beyond this body and the process after it dies. Until then, I guess we have to have faith in masters who have come before us and has told us of their visions and insights, and hope that they were not delusional or liars.

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm not sure which angle this question comes from. As in, that all pleasures we experience in meditation is temporary or that meditation is just another hobby, like bicycling, that can give momentary joy that is nonetheless transitory.

 

If it is the former, in my experience the pleasures of meditation have cumulative effect in our lives if we sustain efforts to continue the practice in day to day living and not just on the meditation cushion.

 

If it is the latter, we'd have no way of knowing until there is insight and ability to see and experience life beyond this body and the process after it dies. Until then, I guess we have to have faith in masters who have come before us and has told us of their visions and insights, and hope that they were not delusional or liars.

 

 

exactly, it is my hope as well they were not delusional or lying but what gets me is how will we ever know and what if they were, now what

 

so sure, i take in the beauty of the other post, enjoy it while it lasts but even that is just yet another passing beauty like an image in a cloud

 

once all the clouds are gone will there ever be anymore, i dont know how to stop thinking like this... have hope but have hope in what... eternity...

[Vajrahridaya]

is eternity even certain?

 

no certainty = clarity but once u see all there is and ever will be

 

 

[Pub(EPiC)ic_bOb]

Let me tell you a story.

 

As one of the masters of the past ate fruit of a now extinct tree, he marveled about how perfect the fruit was and how it had made him well for a very long time.

He briefly knew in his heart that this was the last of this kind of tree.

Once it was gone, no one could ever benefit from it because it would have been lost.

One of his students said "Master, the tree is getting old. Should you not try to plant another?"

In response the Master said to him, "The tree grows out of hardship, and only knows itself how to make another of itself grow. It does not want to help grow another because mankind has become way too selfish."

The student replied, "Yet so many people can benefit and become well from eating its fruit! Is that in itself not a selfish act?"

The Master responded, "No, it is not a selfish act. The tree itself has given to mankind for many many years. It only wishes the best for mankind. However, man has almost destroyed the living conditions needed to grow another tree. It has simply accepted the inevitable."

The student then said, "Then the situation seems hopeless then. Why do we even bother meditating or trying to be healthy?"

The Master finally said, "Because if we did we would be false to the memory of the tree. For as long as we meditate, are generous rather than selfish and treasure the real treasures in life such as the love of this tree, we still maintain the hope that all of mankind can change."

[manitou]

Beautiful discussion. It reminds me of Shel Silverstein's Giving Tree, a book I was given as a young girl. The darn tree just keeps giving up its leaves, its wood, its trunk, until there is nothing left to give. I think at the end of the book someone's sitting on the stump.

 

Pleasures are transitory; meditation is transitory. But doesn't it seem that meditation taps into something that is non-transitory? I sense tapping into the collective mind.

[suninmyeyes]

The darn tree just keeps giving up its leaves, its wood, its trunk, until there is nothing left to give. I think at the end of the book someone's sitting on the stump.

 

This is it, even if the trunk burns in the forest fire or there would be noone to sit on it.

[Aetherous]

Interesting ideas.

 

There are essentially three types of pleasure: outer, inner, and a combination of the two. None of them are truly lasting.

 

Outer pleasure is something like having a cup of tea, breathing the natural air and feeling the breeze, seeing something beautiful, having fun with friends, doing things you enjoy, having certain types of food, etc.

 

None of these pleasures are lasting, because either the experience ends, or our awareness of it ends. For instance: we have to go to work and pay the bills. We have to deal with crappy things like politics and negative people, etc.

 

There is nothing wrong with pursuing external pleasures. Our lives improve from it. If we know their place, and that they come and go, then we can just enjoy them for a period of time and let go.

 

Inner pleasure is the bliss you feel from living a meditative life, easy energy work, simply being alive, being a good person, letting go, etc. It is biochemical, but it's not derived from fleeting experiences.

 

This type of pleasure is more lasting. It has somewhat of a more permanent effect of drawing our awareness away from external sources of pleasure. It's like our nature becomes one where we're constantly savoring something that is completely unseen and unknowable. We just feel good. Our inner breath is experienced as joy, peace, love.

 

There is nothing wrong with pursuing inner pleasure. Our lives improve from it. Life can and should distract us from it. Say for instance if you get a flat tire, or you are fired from your job. You're not going to be so blissful...in fact, you should be experiencing a wide array of emotions. So inner pleasure comes and goes, but changes you, so that your natural inclination is towards inner peace.

 

The third type, inner+outer pleasure at the same time...this might be from having an orgasm. It's basically doing something external which stimulates the biochemistry of the body to have an inner pleasure experience. Forceful types of meditation are included here...exercise...

 

There is nothing wrong with pursuing inner+outer pleasure. Our lives improve from it. The pleasure derived is not lasting, and we require the external things to feel it. Everyone knows you can't have eternal orgasms, endlessly sit on a meditation cushion, or feel a permanent runner's high, etc. So enjoy it while it lasts, and then let it go.

 

...

 

So nothing lasts. But inner pleasure, a shift in the biochemsistry of the body towards 'inner peace', could be said to have a more permanent effect...even if life can constantly distracts us from the hidden nectar.

 

I think as a person progresses, inner bliss merges with their empty nature. Then the emptiness+bliss merges with life experience. So life is not a distraction anymore...it is something we connect to. The nature of the world merges with the nature of the self.

 

Or in other words...if you just live your life, enjoy everything pleasurable while it lasts, let everything go, let pleasures go, let bad experiences go, keep moving forward...then you've got it.

[zanshin]

is only a temporary pleasure..?

 

sigh...

 

 

mmm...those are the best kind.

[suninmyeyes]

 

I think as a person progresses, inner bliss merges with their empty nature. Then the emptiness+bliss merges with life experience. So life is not a distraction anymore...it is something we connect to. The nature of the world merges with the nature of the self.

 

Or in other words...if you just live your life, enjoy everything pleasurable while it lasts, let everything go, let pleasures go, let bad experiences go, keep moving forward...then you've got it.

That was nicely observed .

I would only skip keep moving forward bit and add that we life is not only something we connect to but we are always simply part of life and life itself, no matter how good or bad guilty or eager,or wanting to improve or joyfull. For me this has become a great peacfull knowing I found vibrantly alive in its stillness beyond(figure of speech) my previous structure of stress and constant demand.

Saying that , not that I am some 24/7 om shanti wu wei samadhi wisdomer(I know this word doesent exist but it fits nicely) or anything, just shedding a little feeling fresher and lighter than before.

[Pub(EPiC)ic_bOb]

Beautiful discussion. It reminds me of Shel Silverstein's Giving Tree, a book I was given as a young girl. The darn tree just keeps giving up its leaves, its wood, its trunk, until there is nothing left to give. I think at the end of the book someone's sitting on the stump.

 

Pleasures are transitory; meditation is transitory. But doesn't it seem that meditation taps into something that is non-transitory? I sense tapping into the collective mind.

 

In a way, the tree did keep giving. It sounds as though if circumstances had become different that would not have been.

 

Meditation represents something that mankind did not develop evenly with its mind.

Overdeveloping ones mind is like developing only one arm when you have two.

Sooner or later the rest of the body and spirit has to catch up, its just that mankind has forgotten that we are not only a thinking creature.

This also explains the emotional flavor of the text I quoted.

[manitou]

In a way, the tree did keep giving. It sounds as though if circumstances had become different that would not have been.

 

 

 

That's what would make me cry. The tree was still giving even when the man was sitting on him.

[steve]

is only a temporary pleasure..?

 

sigh...

Is meditation about pleasure?

[Ish]

Is meditation about pleasure?

 

.

 

It's a good idea to work out what you want from meditation, what are your aims and goals?

If you want pleasure from meditation then im sure there are many practices that focus around bliss and all that.

 

Perhaps focus on bringing the meditative skill to the rest of your day. I guess one definition of a master is that they don't need to do their practice as they live it 24/7, they ARE the practice. Enlightened masters ARE the Dharma.