Heartmind

[steve]

 

Please explain more?

I'm not real good with the philosophy and marginally better at the physics.

The basis is in Einstein's Special Relativity, I believe.

http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/lectures/srelwhat.html

 

Here's a nice quote from the wiki that says it better than I can:

"The present is contrasted with the past and the future. Modern physics has not yet been able to explain the perceived aspect of 'the present' as 'eliminator of possibilities' that transfers future into past. A complicating factor is that whilst a given observer would describe 'the present' as a spatial structure with a zero-length time lapse, other observers would associate both time and space to this structure and therefore disagree on what constitutes 'the present'.

The direct experience of the present for each human is that it is what is here, now. Direct experience is of course subjective by definition yet, in this case, this same direct experience is true for all humans. For all of us, 'here' means 'where I am' and 'now' means 'when I am'. Thus, the common repeatable experience is that the present is inextricably linked to oneself.

In the time aspect, the conventional concept of 'now' is that it is some tiny point on a continuous timeline which separates past from future. It is not clear, however, that there is a universal timeline or whether, as relativity seems to indicate, the timeline is inextricably linked to the observer. Thus, is 'now' for me the same time as 'now' for you on a universal timeline, assuming a universal timeline exists? Adding to the confusion, in the physics view, there is no demonstrable reason why time should move in any one particular direction."

 

And more from the wiki on the subject - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity

 

And finally, a bit about the Hawking and the no boundary proposal.

http://everythingforever.com/hawking.htm

[Seth Ananda]

Death is not a complement to life as I see it. It's a complement to birth. If you see yourself as dead in each moment you have to see yourself as being born in each moment too. That's the complement. Birth and death are symmetrical concepts. Life is what makes this whole process possible to begin with. Without life, no birth, no death.

 

Yes. Life has no opposite. Birth and death are inextricably tied to each other though.

 

Birth and Death are doors opening and closing and opening that life flows through.

 

I found it kind of funny to realize that no one experiences death. [When I say no one i do not mean that in a 'no self manner'] Or maybe i should say that the only people who experience death are those left behind, who lose a loved one.

 

The 'dying' person experiences and unbroken flow of life. We are still alive at every stage, even when our body has fallen off.

So experientialy, when we experience dying, for us it is like a door opening that we step through to a new life. To the ones we leave it is like a door closing. All that is left is a body and we cant see past the door. That is why death is frightening.

[goldisheavy]

Yes. Life has no opposite. Birth and death are inextricably tied to each other though.

 

Birth and Death are doors opening and closing and opening that life flows through.

 

I found it kind of funny to realize that no one experiences death. [When I say no one i do not mean that in a 'no self manner'] Or maybe i should say that the only people who experience death are those left behind, who lose a loved one.

 

The 'dying' person experiences and unbroken flow of life. We are still alive at every stage, even when our body has fallen off.

So experientialy, when we experience dying, for us it is like a door opening that we step through to a new life. To the ones we leave it is like a door closing. All that is left is a body and we cant see past the door. That is why death is frightening.

 

I agree 100%. Not much else to add.

 

EDIT: I lied. I have something to add. What you described is the best case scenario of aware death. There is also a possibility of the person passing out into amnesia/unconsciousness out of fear and waking up being 5 years old in some other life, having missed everything in between. It's like an alzeimer's patient who is dead while alive in a way, although for alzeimers I think the cause is not necessarily fear (it could be one of the possible causes), but apathy toward life and hence absentmindedness, or alternatively an overriding sense of tiredness which takes over (like a person who wants to sleep so badly that staying awake becomes a nominal process without truly being alert and present, due to inwardly wanting to relax already).

 

As for amnesia, we have heard of many people failing to remember traumatic near-death events, so amnesia happening at death would not be anything extraordinary or unusual.

[Aaron]

[Guest allan]

[lifeforce]

[lifeforce]

If you go deep enough, the Abtrahamic religions appear to contribute to the root of all cancers.

 

Oh dear, this is an absurd theory, and belongs in the Falun Gong thread.

[Simple_Jack]

[Simple_Jack]

"The brain creates the world" isn't accurate to me. It interprets it. For instance, by meditating on all of the characteristics of a 100 dollar bill, I can't create it out of thin air. But by seeing a 100 dollar bill, I can gather information about its characteristics and come to recognize it as something different from other things.

 

The world is something outside of the brain. The brain is part of the world...but in direct perception, the world/brain/body/sun/moon/stars/cars...all of these are experienced through the 5 senses alone. Through the senses, we come to know the real "relative" world.

 

We all know this.

 

But a Buddhist would apparently question whether a brain exists at all, because they heard some quantum physicist say nothing exists? Or because they took drugs once and hallucinated, so they can't ever trust the 5 senses again?

Actually, a "Buddhist" would understand that the brain, the six senses (if you include thinking consciousness,) and body are subject to change and do not constitute an absolute, independent, or unchangeing "self." They are "relative," because phenomena arises in each moment due to the fluctuations of karmic energy, that is an interdependent display of yin and yang (cause and effect.) Hence they do not constitute an absolute, unchanging, or independent "existence."

[Simple_Jack]

Cultivating the heart/mind is important to any cultivator of Tao. For the benefit of those who seemed not to know, the heart/mind is mentioned in the Tao Te Ching and in the much older Book of Changes.

 

(The link to my 2006 article on 'Further notes on the Heart/Mind' is appended again for your attention: http://atouchofancie...rtmind-xin.html )

 

In TTC 16, Laozi indicated that the cultivator has to empty the mind and still the heart.

 

But to empty the mind and still the heart is not easy, as can be seen in this thread, the fanatical Buddhists and the enlightenment threads.

 

Those who have real teachers are lucky. They can go and check with their teachers if they still cannot empty their minds and still their hearts after years of practice.

 

Meanwhile a self-taught cultivator of Tao will just have to focus on the breath during neidan meditation until the mind is empty and the heart is still.

 

Regards

"Cultivating the heart/mind is important to any cultivator of Tao. For the benefit of those who seemed not to know, the heart/mind is mentioned in the Tao Te Ching and in the much older Book of Changes."

 

Right...who said that it wasn't a Taoist concept? Also I thought since in China heart and mind are used interchangeably: Since "heart" and "mind," in China (when used in that context) both signify the "mind?"

[Simple_Jack]

Steve,

 

 

 

Oh yeah, definitely not a big deal...

 

 

 

Not sure what you mean. Without eyes, a person can't see the physical world. There still may be things they see, like random light from neurons firing or something.

 

 

 

Well, the world is really there...it's just not made sense of yet. It is full of distinct things...not simply potential.

 

If someone's lobotomized, maybe their brain doesn't differentiate between a ball or a tree. But that doesn't render the ball and tree to be the same thing, or non-existent until they are aware of it. The ball and tree exist with their distinct characteristics regardless of individual perception...which is why those things aren't re-created each time we look at them.

 

 

 

At least personally, I have a sense of deep connection with the immediate environment. The body is percieved as just being a part of it.

Even someone who is blind and only sees "darkness," or the color black due to the absence of light...this too is still a phenomenal realm of consciousness. Same with hearing or not hearing.

 

Also this whole thing on Past, Present, Future...as it says in the Diamond Sutra: "That which the Tathagata calls the mind is not really the mind, but is merely called the such. Being as such, Subhuti, the past mind is ungraspable, the present mind is ungraspable, the future mind is ungraspable."

 

They are "ungraspable" merely because the events, scenery, thoughts, experiences, etc. are always changing. The "present" moment becomes the "past" moment in each moment. So each "present" moment is fleeting (becoming a "past moment") and can't be held onto. The "future" moment, hasn't happened yet, but it too becomes the "past," once it happens. Yet each phenomenal moment as Dogen put's it: Is complete with past and future and is independent of past and future.

[Simple_Jack]

This question is independent to the above...

 

Scotty, just wondering, since you do neigong and shit...Have you opened your third eye yet? Or had any OBE'S?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems strange that you would hold physicalist views of the experiences of consciousness as only residing in the brain.

[Aetherous]

Also this whole thing on Past, Present, Future...as it says in the Diamond Sutra: "That which the Tathagata calls the mind is not really the mind, but is merely called the such. Being as such, Subhuti, the past mind is ungraspable, the present mind is ungraspable, the future mind is ungraspable."

 

They are "ungraspable" merely because the events, scenery, thoughts, experiences, etc. are always changing. The "present" moment becomes the "past" moment in each moment. So each "present" moment is fleeting (becoming a "past moment") and can't be held onto. The "future" moment, hasn't happened yet, but it too becomes the "past," once it happens. Yet each phenomenal moment as Dogen put's it: Is complete with past and future and is independent of past and future.

 

It could be said that water is ungraspable, too...but a person can hold it in their hands if they simply cup them. Or a better example: wind. That's ungraspable, but you experience it nonetheless.

 

Plus, it was talking about the "past/present/future mind"...not mindless sensory experience, which is what I'm referring to.

 

So I assure you...if you try looking at your computer in the present moment, you'll be able to. If you think you aren't able to, then how does a person ever look at their computer? Verify for yourself!

 

Dogen was describing the present moment..."independent of past and future". Nothing you ever experience is the past or future. If you are remembering something from the past, that remembering is happening in the present moment. When you reflect and think about your remembering, that reflection is occurring in the present moment.

 

Consider the word "reflection"...it is referring to an image of the thing that is not the thing itself. That's what the mind does. You have a pure experience of the computer screen, then when you recollect it and reflect upon it, you're experiencing the past...but that phenomenon of "past mind" is still occurring in the present moment. It's inescapable.

 

Scotty, just wondering, since you do neigong and shit...Have you opened your third eye yet? Or had any OBE'S?

 

I think so...and no, aside from consciousness being outside of the body but still within the "aura".

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems strange that you would hold physicalist views of the expereiences of consciousness as only residing in the brain.

 

I don't think consciousness is only in the brain...but I do think that the body is kind of like a machine which enables all sorts of experiences of consciousness.

 

The only thing that would change my mind would be directly experiencing OBE's where I perform tests of accuracy in the physical world (for instance, flying out of the body and seeing something that's randomized and hidden, like a playing card, then coming back to the body and physically verifying what I saw). Or even if I couldn't do it, if many people could and they proved it often, I could start to believe that consciousness is something separate.

 

So that being said, yes my view of reality is basically physicalist.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

The only thing that would change my mind would be directly experiencing OBE's where I perform tests of accuracy in the physical world (for instance, flying out of the body and seeing something that's randomized and hidden, like a playing card, then coming back to the body and physically verifying what I saw). Or even if I couldn't do it, if many people could and they proved it often, I could start to believe that consciousness is something separate.

 

 

I did that, wow'd some kids. Not exactly that, but various similar things.

[Seth Ananda]

I did that, wow'd some kids. Not exactly that, but various similar things.

I freaked out an enemy by tearing a poster on his wall [of Elvis], knocking over papers and rattling his window pane. He thought his place was haunted.

 

That was when I was 17 and had just left home. I was trying to OBE every night and had occasional successes.

I sometimes wish I could maintain discipline with astral practice {not for shenanigans like that}, as that is the only way I get any success. It does not normally come easy to me.

 

These days also, when I get to vibration state and feel like I am starting to seperate, my heart speeds up alot. This never used to happen. Got any Tips?

[Vajrahridaya]

I freaked out an enemy by tearing a poster on his wall [of Elvis], knocking over papers and rattling his window pane. He thought his place was haunted.

 

That was when I was 17 and had just left home. I was trying to OBE every night and had occasional successes.

I sometimes wish I could maintain discipline with astral practice {not for shenanigans like that}, as that is the only way I get any success. It does not normally come easy to me.

 

These days also, when I get to vibration state and feel like I am starting to seperate, my heart speeds up alot. This never used to happen. Got any Tips?

 

My practice is more centered around staying in the body for the last... um, 10 years or so.

 

I remember that feeling though... um, I think just consciously relaxing? You know... where you just make your consciousness subtle and relaxed. So wow, you actually tore posters and touched stuff? I'd just see things or hear things and if I astral projected I never actually tried to use it to do angry type of stuff. I guess at that point, I was older and not associating with the concept of enemy much at all. Back when I was 17 I was writing graffiti, smoking and dealing pot, drinking and using my powers of charisma to get panties off ladies and if I had an enemy, I'd just walk up to him and punch him in the face and kick him while he was down... I was known to be pretty mean and not to be screwed with. Even though within was a scared over compensating kid. At that time, I had forgotten that I even had gotten shaktipat 3 to 4 years pryer. I didn't get back into spiritual stuff until I was 20 when I had a powerful experience of cosmic consciousness on my birthday and remembered my shaktipat experience, all sorts of stuff happened before, during and after that birthday. It seemed important for me, for some reason? But, out of body stuff? Only during sleep paralysis or in between sleep and waking states of consciousness and it just happens without me willing it.

[Seth Ananda]

My practice is more centered around staying in the body for the last... um, 10 years or so.

 

I remember that feeling though... um, I think just consciously relaxing? You know... where you just make your consciousness subtle and relaxed. So wow, you actually tore posters and touched stuff?

Embodiment is Good

 

When I got out I was always in this world, though there were sometimes weird differences.

Rising on the Planes style exercises though, never lead me to this world.

[Vajrahridaya]

Embodiment is Good

 

When I got out I was always in this world, though there were sometimes weird differences.

Rising on the Planes style exercises though, never lead me to this world.

 

Yes, mostly when this stuff just happens, which is the only way it will now, I have a visitation from some unnamed Buddhist master, or a named one... like the Dalai Lama once and the Karmapa as well when he was in NYC and I was longing to see him but couldn't... he came to me, and things are different, yes... but I think it's just perception in those states are just not as linear. Either that or I just pop into another plane of existence, like a heaven or hell realm, for lack of a better word.

 

These are important experiences, but yes... the goal is liberation through the body, not out of the body.

 

Integrate, integrate, integrate!

[Seth Ananda]

 

These are important experiences, but yes... the goal is liberation through the body, not out of the body.

 

Integrate, integrate, integrate!

I agree, but doesn't Dzogchen, and other forms of Tibetan Buddhism have teachings on the out of body states? Are they not seen as particularly beneficial for realizing certain truths?

If yes could you Inform me further?

[Vajrahridaya]

I agree, but doesn't Dzogchen, and other forms of Tibetan Buddhism have teachings on the out of body states? Are they not seen as particularly beneficial for realizing certain truths?

If yes could you Inform me further?

 

Yes, there are many texts about such things. LOL! They aren't generally translated for mass public consumption though.

[Aetherous]

the goal is liberation through the body

 

Oh, that illusory thing which we only know exists through the 5 senses?

[Seth Ananda]

Yes, there are many texts about such things. LOL! They aren't generally translated for mass public consumption though.

How very enigmatic! lol, I am sure there is stuff that is that you could comment on?

What about In print Dream Yoga books?

[Seth Ananda]

Sorry I realize this may be going off thread!

How can OBE's relate to heart mind?

[Vajrahridaya]

How very enigmatic! lol, I am sure there is stuff that is that you could comment on?

What about In print Dream Yoga books?

 

Sorry.

 

Well yeah, I know of many, but I haven't read them. I don't read much anymore, except blog boards. I just know they're out there, I've glanced over plenty at friends houses, and have had conversations, etc.

 

I'm more of a digester... I have a hard time remembering specific pages, quotes and books. Except when it arises in my memory easily. I'm weird I guess...

 

Namkhai Norbu has a Dream Yoga book, I purchased it though I haven't read it yet. You might try that! I've heard that it's good, LOL!

[Vajrahridaya]

Oh, that illusory thing which we only know exists through the 5 senses?

 

Well, it's just, "like" an illusion, not quite an illusion. It is the dense expression of many of our mental habits so while in the body, better figure out how "best to be" while in it.