fanatical Buddhists

[Vajrahridaya]

And if the Dharma-Ending-Age begins this kind of wisdom will disappear.

But then conditions will eventually set up for another Wheel turner. The process will then cycle again, as it does.

[Vajrahridaya]

To me such a situation is strange since in some forms of Buddhism particular souls like Quan Yin are said to stay on the other side compassionately helping countless beings for countless eons!

 

Om

 

Because it's not a soul, it's a mind stream.

 

Soul as a concept, is just too concrete a term for Buddhist analysis, that is all. At the same time, one can say, soul in place of mind stream, as long as one doesn't get caught in the projection of some sort of atman. As the soul is empty and just arises due to a personalized stream of causes and conditions coagulated together due to a clinging to a self for samsarins and coagulated due to the turning of such conditions into selfless service for nirvanins. To put it in a dichotomous fashion that neglects the grey of detail, which is important for contemplation.

 

Detail is where the Abhidharma comes in and breaks it down.

 

The thing about Buddhism, is that individuals, even the Adi Buddhas were all sentient beings once, prior to attaining full enlightenment, just done so in a previous cosmic cycle, and manifest in this cosmic cycle without various obscurations in order to influence beings in the positive. Unlike in many other traditions where gods are symbols of an unborn or undying "self" of all, thus reifying an essence or a soul of all that births all souls. This would be antithetical to Buddhist contemplation, as this does not recognize emptiness, but rather consciousness as supreme and uniform.

 

People do need these beliefs though, as they arise dependent upon the needs or desires of people. People need an anchor for personal evolution, and Buddhism uses these anchors as well, in traditions like Pureland Buddhism. But, for Buddhism, this anchor is analyzed and stripped of it's power to bind once a practitioner is ready for such things. As this ideation of a true and solid self existence reified through the concept of soul, generally speaking, is the seed of becoming insnared in Samsara once again, even if one does live a long life in a heaven realm with ones favorite god. As even the great gods like Brahma have a life span, and fall into blissfully ignorant and formless slumber at the end of a cosmic cycle to be reborn ignorantly in the next one without any memory of having been a great god in a previous cycle.

 

Of course, you don't have to believe this, but this is what Buddhism says about it. So, either Buddhism is wrong, or there is something there worth contemplating for deepening ones awareness of the nature of things. That's up to you to decide of course.

[steve]

So, either Buddhism is wrong, or there is something there worth contemplating for deepening ones awareness of the nature of things.

... or both.

[Vajrahridaya]

... or both.

 

It all depends on what you need in the moment, but really then if it's both, then it's just right, relative to a persons necessity. Just as in one life, taking up the monks precepts are right for an individual, but in the next life, that person may be evolved enough to practice vajrayana where one transforms all sense pleasures into dharma gates, making the monks precepts wrong for that person in this life and they would actually suppress the persons ability to evolve. At the same time, for someone who needs the monks precepts and empowering ritual, the opposite would be true.

 

This is why religion is important, from it's purist vantage point.

[Vajrahridaya]

note: I have no clue of what a Dharma-door is but it must be important if Master Hua made a vow about it.

 

All the different dharma teachings, which may appear contradictory, but lead to realization of the dharmakaya.

 

Like Vajrayana is a dharma door that looks very different when compared to Theravada, but both are considered dharma doors. Basically, he's talking about just mastering all the different perspectives that Buddha teachings manifests itself through.

[ralis]

Several points in this discussion stand out. The world would be in utter darkness without Buddhism and religion.

[ralis]

It all depends on what you need in the moment, but really then if it's both, then it's just right, relative to a persons necessity. Just as in one life, taking up the monks precepts are right for an individual, but in the next life, that person may be evolved enough to practice vajrayana where one transforms all sense pleasures into dharma gates, making the monks precepts wrong for that person in this life and they would actually suppress the persons ability to evolve. At the same time, for someone who needs the monks precepts and empowering ritual, the opposite would be true.

 

This is why religion is important, from it's purist vantage point.

 

Many people in third world countries have no choice but to enter the monastic life. The choice is between a life of abject poverty and functional illiteracy. Mostly there are two classes; the ruling wealthy class and poor. To say that the monastic life in a place like Tibet as you are so fond of, is a matter of leisurely choice, is erroneous.

 

Religion has done very little except create doctrinal proclamations, false relief from fear, authoritarianism, secret rituals and a whole range of abuse, both physical and psychological. These and more fall under the category of imposed belief systems. This shows lack of real heart.

Edited July 12, 2011 by ralis

[goldisheavy]

Several points in this discussion stand out. The world would be in utter darkness without Buddhism and religion.

 

I don't believe this. It's like saying that if Microsoft didn't exist we would have no personal computers now. It's not true. Maybe personal computers wouldn't be as popular without Microsoft. Or maybe they would be even more popular and even more advanced. It's hard to say if Microsoft helped the evolution of computers or hindered it.

 

Saying that without Buddhism we would be in darkness means that you cannot imagine something that's either equivalent or wiser than Buddhism. I can, so this isn't true for me. I can imagine infinite possible religions that are at least as wise as Buddhism and that are not exactly like Buddhism, but have a distinct character and style to them.

 

The best teachings in Buddhism have an anti-dogmatic quality to them. At the same time, Buddhism has a lot of dogma and cultural baggage. So the best of Buddhism is at odds with the worst of it. To think only of what's the best in Buddhism is to be blind.

 

Religion in general has been much more harmful than helpful to humankind. It's just a lucky fluke that Buddhism has some good elements in it that cancel out the bad elements, and the bad elements in Buddhism are not that bad compared to the bad elements of Islam, for example.

 

Whatever is truly wise and beautiful stands apart from religion. Religious movements immorally try to appropriate and monopolize something they have absolutely no right to. For this I have condemned all religions, including Buddhism. This is why eventually religions will become marginalized in this mindstream. That is my vow. It's not a new vow I just made either. It's been my vow for a long time. My vow opposes dogma because dogma is inflexible and thus dead to life. My vow opposes ownership of truth because ownership has the negative qualities of excluding beings and of despotic and arbitrary control. Ownership in general is bittersweet at best, but when it comes to truth and wisdom, attempts to own truth and wisdom are downright devastating and disastrous.

 

Whatever I say here is never in the spirit of me owning or monopolizing anything I talk about. I demand the same from everyone, and this means religions are taking a hit, because the vast majority of religious leaders fail to live up to the moral standard I am talking about here.

Edited July 12, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

Many people in third world countries have no choice but to enter the monastic life. The choice is between a life of abject poverty and functional illiteracy. Mostly there are two classes; the ruling wealthy class and poor. To say that the monastic life in a place like Tibet as you are so fond of, is a matter of leisurely choice, is erroneous.

 

Religion has done very little except create doctrinal proclamations, false relief from fear, authoritarianism, secret rituals and a whole range of abuse, both physical and psychological. These and more fall under the category of imposed belief systems. This shows lack of real heart.

 

Always the dark side for you.

[ralis]

So glad to see you here Mat. I so wish you would post more often but I understand you probably are busy spreading the 4 Immeasurables to the beings around you in everyday RL.

 

I, too, do not wish to see the end of traditional Buddhism. I've read it said that when the Dharma-Ending-Age begins the first of the written wisdoms to disappear will be the Shurangama Sutra. I own an 8 volume set of the Shurangama complete with line-by-line commentary by the Master Hsuan Hua.

 

He made 18 Great Vows.

 

Some examples:

 

"I vow that as long as there is a single Shravaka in the three periods of time throughout the ten directions of the Dharma Realm, to the very end of empty space, who has not accomplished Buddhahood, I too will not attain the right enlightenment."

 

"I vow that as long as there is a single human being in the worlds of the ten directions who has not accomplished Buddhahood, I too will not attain the right enlightenment."

 

"I vow that as long as there is a single animal who has not accomplished Buddhahood, I too will not attain the right enlightenment."

 

"I vow that all of my vows will certainly be fulfilled."

 

and after the 18 he ended with

 

I vow to save the innumerable living beings.

I vow to eradicate the inexaustible afflictions.

I vow to study the illimitable Dharma-doors.

I vow to accomplish the unsurpassed Buddha Way.

 

note: I have no clue of what a Dharma-door is but it must be important if Master Hua made a vow about it.

 

 

 

Now, if it were not for Master Nan and his commentary on other Buddhist Sutras/Suttas I would not understand the great significance of what Master Hua is doing here. Apparently, if one cultivates deeply enough one will become aware of a special Vow Form Realm. Vows are important! Very important. When you make a vow a special form realm comes into being and will have certain effects on you. No one will achieve Buddhahood who is not capable of making and keeping vows. And making cavalier vows (and breaking them) is something preferably avoided if possible.

 

But if traditional Buddhism disappears - this kind of wisdom will also disappear. I suspect very few people will be able to cultivate to a high enough level to discover this Vow Form Realm on their own without having great amounts of merit built up. I suppose it is possible and in practice that's precisely what the Buddha himself wanted us to do - discover it for ourselves. But if the traditional teachings disappear people may make cavalier vows and break them (because vows are no longer taken seriously in today's society) and could possibly be doing themselves greater harm for their future than they know.

 

And if the Dharma-Ending-Age begins this kind of wisdom will disappear.

 

 

The problem I see here is putting all your hope and aspirations in one system. Wisdom is inherent in all. No one system controls what wisdom is or isn't. Religions have sought to co-opt wisdom for their own ambitions. That is no different than political movements.

 

In terms of the "heart mind", that is found by focusing on the heart center in the middle of the chest. The heart center is the ruling center over the upper dantien and lower dantien. All are important. However, from my little experience and from extensive reading, that place feels right to me. What I have learned recently, there needs to be some sort of integration of the upper dantien and lower dantien with the heart center. The only way I know of achieving that is by breathing and relaxing at all times while focusing on the heart center. That may be what is required to deal with belief systems and other constructs that seem difficult to manage. I have struggled with this for years and for me it has not been an easy ride!

 

Examples can be found by reading from the following; Gurdjieff, The Mother and Aurobindo, certain qigong systems, Sufi literature, Namkhai Norbu, etc.

[ralis]

I don't believe this. It's like saying that if Microsoft didn't exist we would have no personal computers now. It's not true. Maybe personal computers wouldn't be as popular without Microsoft. Or maybe they would be even more popular and even more advanced. It's hard to say if Microsoft helped the evolution of computers or hindered it.

 

Saying that without Buddhism we would be in darkness means that you cannot imagine something that's either equivalent or wiser than Buddhism. I can, so this isn't true for me. I can imagine infinite possible religions that are at least as wise as Buddhism and that are not exactly like Buddhism, but have a distinct character and style to them.

 

The best teachings in Buddhism have an anti-dogmatic quality to them. At the same time, Buddhism has a lot of dogma and cultural baggage. So the best of Buddhism is at odds with the worst of it. To think only of what's the best in Buddhism is to be blind.

 

Religion in general has been much more harmful than helpful to humankind. It's just a lucky fluke that Buddhism has some good elements in it that cancel out the bad elements, and the bad elements in Buddhism are not that bad compared to the bad elements of Islam, for example.

 

Whatever is truly wise and beautiful stands apart from religion. Religious movements immorally try to appropriate and monopolize something they have absolutely no right to. For this I have condemned all religions, including Buddhism. This is why eventually religions will become marginalized in this mindstream. That is my vow. It's not a new vow I just made either. It's been my vow for a long time. My vow opposes dogma because dogma is inflexible and thus dead to life. My vow opposes ownership of truth because ownership has the negative qualities of excluding beings and of despotic and arbitrary control. Ownership in general is bittersweet at best, but when it comes to truth and wisdom, attempts to own truth and wisdom are downright devastating and disastrous.

 

Whatever I say here is never in the spirit of me owning or monopolizing anything I talk about. I demand the same from everyone, and this means religions are taking a hit, because the vast majority of religious leaders fail to live up to the moral standard I am talking about here.

 

 

I was not making a clear point. That point was meant for Vajraji who believes that to be so. Given that he believes that Buddhism is the only container of wisdom. The darkness aspect that is referred to is the time when the Buddhist dharma is unknown, However, that does not mean that wisdom in unavailable.

Edited July 12, 2011 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

I was not making a clear point. That point was meant for Vajraji who believes that to be so, given that he believes that Buddhism is the only container of wisdom.

 

Where did I say that? I say it's the clearest container on Earth. Even as most all mainstream and non-mainstream mystical traditions were influenced by the Buddhas teaching as Buddhism was the largest spiritual tradition on Earth for over 1,000 years, until maybe about the 600's and maybe until about the 8 or 900's or so with his expansive explanations of various concepts.

 

Wisdom has no container, but that too can become a container, this reification of no-container.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Always the dark side for you.

 

Real heart supersedes all of what I pointed out. There are very few who get it.

[3bob]

So glad to see you here Mat. I so wish you would post more often but I understand you probably are busy spreading the 4 Immeasurables to the beings around you in everyday RL.

 

I, too, do not wish to see the end of traditional Buddhism. I've read it said that when the Dharma-Ending-Age begins the first of the written wisdoms to disappear will be the Shurangama Sutra. I own an 8 volume set of the Shurangama complete with line-by-line commentary by the Master Hsuan Hua.

 

He made 18 Great Vows.

 

Some examples:

 

"I vow that as long as there is a single Shravaka in the three periods of time throughout the ten directions of the Dharma Realm, to the very end of empty space, who has not accomplished Buddhahood, I too will not attain the right enlightenment."

 

"I vow that as long as there is a single human being in the worlds of the ten directions who has not accomplished Buddhahood, I too will not attain the right enlightenment."

 

"I vow that as long as there is a single animal who has not accomplished Buddhahood, I too will not attain the right enlightenment."

 

"I vow that all of my vows will certainly be fulfilled."

 

and after the 18 he ended with

 

I vow to save the innumerable living beings.

I vow to eradicate the inexaustible afflictions.

I vow to study the illimitable Dharma-doors.

I vow to accomplish the unsurpassed Buddha Way.

 

note: I have no clue of what a Dharma-door is but it must be important if Master Hua made a vow about it.

 

Now, if it were not for Master Nan and his commentary on other Buddhist Sutras/Suttas I would not understand the great significance of what Master Hua is doing here. Apparently, if one cultivates deeply enough one will become aware of a special Vow Form Realm. Vows are important! Very important. When you make a vow a special form realm comes into being and will have certain effects on you. No one will achieve Buddhahood who is not capable of making and keeping vows. And making cavalier vows (and breaking them) is something preferably avoided if possible.

 

But if traditional Buddhism disappears - this kind of wisdom will also disappear. I suspect very few people will be able to cultivate to a high enough level to discover this Vow Form Realm on their own without having great amounts of merit built up. I suppose it is possible and in practice that's precisely what the Buddha himself wanted us to do - discover it for ourselves. But if the traditional teachings disappear people may make cavalier vows and break them (because vows are no longer taken seriously in today's society) and could possibly be doing themselves greater harm for their future than they know.

 

And if the Dharma-Ending-Age begins this kind of wisdom will disappear.

 

Faith and Grace are not that complicated. No conditioned being can reach "Mystery" or cross the "Wheel" without an element of Grace (or compassion if you prefer), thus no matter how much merit or cultivation one has in all other worlds such is not enough by itself! Also there is no exact time limit or even an exact law limit for such a crossing (although in the worlds of various laws, those laws do have to be dealt with) still the timeless and measureless Grace is greater than the laws of time and karmas, thus It is the greatest Law! One finds that out at the threshold. Btw, what I'm saying may not be of Buddhist belief but I'm vouching for it, for whatever use that be?

 

Touching on vows: In a sense they are also refusing to lie to oneself based on one's experiential knowings that are beyond the reach of the pros and cons of intellectual manipulation and or debate. "Fear not" Truth and Joy beyond explanation remain, while all forms come and go.

 

Om

[goldisheavy]

I was not making a clear point. That point was meant for Vajraji who believes that to be so. Given that he believes that Buddhism is the only container of wisdom. The darkness aspect that is referred to is the time when the Buddhist dharma is unknown, However, that does not mean that wisdom in unavailable.

 

Yea, it's pretty obvious when I read your other posts in this thread. I completely agree with your view of religion.

Edited July 12, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

All these anti-religion fanatics, I wonder if they're going to inspire psychopaths to go around and shoot monks, while quoting their scriptures.

 

It looks like a new anti-religion religion is on it's way here folks!

[Vajrahridaya]

Faith and Grace are not that complicated. No conditioned being can reach "Mystery" or cross the "Wheel" without an element of Grace (or compassion if you prefer), thus no matter how much merit or cultivation one has in all other worlds such is not enough by itself!

 

Grace in Buddhism is the energy of those that have gone before, those of the tathagatagharba, those that represent a part of the cosmos that is beyond itself, a potential within every sentient beings. Grace doesn't come from an omnipotent universal essence endowed with Self will for Buddhas. That would just be a reification of the formless states of samadhi, very powerful, hard to cut through, the seed located deep within the unconscious minds of sentient beings as the Alayavijnana (Storehouse Consciousness, the "I" maker).

Edited July 12, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

All these anti-religion fanatics, I wonder if they're going to inspire psychopaths to go around and shoot monks, while quoting their scriptures.

 

It looks like a new anti-religion religion is on it's way here folks!

 

 

Aren't you being a little sensitive and paranoid? You came on this forum a little over 2 years ago and 5000+ posts later, you have extolled the virtues of the superiority of Buddhism ad infinitum. Would you like to be classified in the same category as the religious fundies in the U.S.? The Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin types?

 

Never do you mention the "heart mind" aspect of Buddhism, except when you use ( ) this particular emoticon. With your dharma buddies here.

 

Heresy is a pain to the true believer! However, belief systems must be questioned!

Edited July 12, 2011 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Never do you mention the "heart mind" aspect of Buddhism, except when you use ( ) this particular emoticon.

 

I was being extreme as a joke, just to illustrate a point.

 

As far as mentioning the heart mind, I do every time I mention Rigpa. Also, too many people have too many concepts surrounding the heart mind, either that or to many anti-concept concepts.

 

What's the heart mind? People will get emotional thinking that feeling is the heart mind. People will think, but mind is thoughts? Then you say, center your attention in the center of the chest, and I've read people doing that and just getting scared and feeling heart palpitations.

 

If you actually read any of my posts with a grain of sensitivity, you would sometimes fall into a spontaneous state of heart mind, as many times my posts were written from that very state. But, you are too busy looking for the dark side, too busy hunting me to appreciate the things I say. There are plenty of others who have read my posts and have commented that they "got it". Both publicly but mostly in pm.

 

Your view of me and my posts is subjective and you don't get that. You think your interpretation of my posts must be the absolute truth, because your perception is so great and high, as you "get" the heart mind. I will not tailor the way I speak to your personal sensitivity.

[ralis]

I was being extreme as a joke, just to illustrate a point.

 

As far as mentioning the heart mind, I do every time I mention Rigpa. Also, too many people have too many concepts surrounding the heart mind, either that or to many anti-concept concepts.

 

What's the heart mind? People will get emotional thinking that feeling is the heart mind. People will think, but mind is thoughts? Then you say, center your attention in the center of the chest, and I've read people doing that and just getting scared and feeling heart palpitations.

 

If you actually read any of my posts with a grain of sensitivity, you would sometimes fall into a spontaneous state of heart mind, as many times my posts were written from that very state. But, you are too busy looking for the dark side, too busy hunting me to appreciate the things I say. There are plenty of others who have read my posts and have commented that they "got it". Both publicly but mostly in pm.

 

Your view of me and my posts is subjective and you don't get that. You think your interpretation of my posts must be the absolute truth, because your perception is so great and high, as you "get" the heart mind. I will not tailor the way I speak to your personal sensitivity.

 

 

I know the "heart mind'. Norbu pointed that out in a retreat at Synergia ranch in Santa Fe in July of 1989. I was there for 1 week. I will never forget the pointing out instructions.

[lifeforce]

Perhaps a saying from Sosan could be of use?:

 

"When the deep meaning of things is not understood the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail. The way is perfect like vast space where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess. Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject that we do not see the true nature of things. Live neither in the entanglements of outer things, nor in inner feelings of emptiness. Be serene without striving activity in the oneness of things and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves. When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity your very effort fills you with activity. As long as you remain in one extreme or the other you will never know Oneness. Those who do not live in the single Way fail in both activity and passivity, assertion and denial"

 

see here

[goldisheavy]

Aren't you being a little sensitive and paranoid? You came on this forum a little over 2 years ago and 5000+ posts later, you have extolled the virtues of the superiority of Buddhism ad infinitum. Would you like to be classified in the same category as the religious fundies in the U.S.? The Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin types?

 

Never do you mention the "heart mind" aspect of Buddhism, except when you use ( ) this particular emoticon. With your dharma buddies here.

 

It's worse than that. Not only does Vajrahridaya extoll the virtues of Buddhism, but he also goes around putting people down not for being foolish, but purely for being outside the formal Buddhist fold. He also invites people he thinks are "good" to take Buddhist initiations and vows. This has been my experience personally.

 

I don't recall Vaj ever taking any issue with anything I say when it comes to how I view phenomena and on many issues that are considered of critical importance in various Buddhist traditions. So for the most part he agrees with the non-religious stuff I have to say. At the same time he still attempted to put me down numerous times. Why? Well, the only reason is purely political -- it's because I oppose organized religion for one, and because I oppose secret clubs two, and three because I am not submissive humble enough for Vaj's foolish idea of humility. What's truly mind-blowing is that while he tried to put me down, he also invited me more than once to become a Buddhist. It's sort of like telling the person how poorly dressed one is, and then inviting that same person to shop at your clothing store right in the same breath. It's a very...how shall I say it...unclean tactic. Very manipulative, arrogant, presumptuous and selfish.

 

I am grateful for all the teachings Buddhists have decided to openly share. But I am not grateful for attempts at manipulation, authoritarian control, and dogmatic indoctrination. I am also not grateful for the tribalistic, clannish, cliquish, cultish nature of the Buddhist secret clubs.

[Vajrahridaya]

I know the "heart mind'. Norbu pointed that out in a retreat at Synergia ranch in Santa Fe in July of 1989. I was there for 1 week. I will never forget the pointing out instructions.

 

Sure, there is the experience, but the process of integration and grounded realization is something else. So many people have the glimpse, but so many people also form many concepts around it, thinking that these concepts reflect it the best and then they create an identity around this conceptual form, or even a anti-conceptual formlessness, or a mixture of both.

 

I experienced what I thought was my heart mind for the first time in 1981, at the age of 6, glowing compassion, deep peace, total equilibrium and inner stillness. But really, that was just one of the form jhanas as described by the Buddha. Many people mistake a jhana for the experience of rigpa, and there are many levels of jhana that are very powerful and deep.

 

Rigpa does have to do with omniscience and your rejection of various facts about the cosmos as explained in Buddhism, about how it's structure works, as the cosmos is structured, obviously, just doesn't reveal Rigpa to me. It just shows that you probably had a great jhanic state revealed to you, but not much insight into the nature of things. I don't know, I could be wrong, as I'm just going on what you've written here.

 

But, anyway, even if you experienced Rigpa, deepening your integration with that level of awareness is a process of utilizing that powerful bliss to cut through all structures without destroying them. Also, experiencing Rigpa, you should have a recognition of how the Jalus, or Rainbow body is possible on an intuitive level.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

It's worse than that.

 

Nice perverted interpretation of my intentions.

 

Mostly I talk to you in a way that others can read, as I recognize you're too hard headed to soften your perspective.

[lifeforce]

I am grateful for all the teachings Buddhists have decided to openly share. But I am not grateful for attempts at manipulation, authoritarian control, and dogmatic indoctrination. I am also not grateful for the tribalistic, clannish, cliquish, cultish nature of the Buddhist secret clubs.

 

 

Well said. I couldn't agree more.