[TTC Study] Chapter 41 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

And laughing is better than crying.

[ChiDragon]

I did, for a while. I'm in the UK now.

 

 

 

Yes.... but in any text, one also needs to look at each chapter in the context of the entire text in order to determine any conclusions. The TTC only makes sense as a whole if the themes are consistent from chapter to chapter.

 

In the context of the text -- regarding Tao, and everything that LZ says -- we can conclude that:

 

- the low surpasses the high (ch.66)

- the weak and flexible surpasses the strong and rigid (ch.40,76,78)

- full is not 'better' than empty (ch.11,45)

 

Exactly, besides the context from chapter to chapter, but sometimes, it is in one line, two lines or one chapter alone. Each chapter is stand alone but may be interrelated to another.

 

- Ch 66, the high and low were applied to the different class of people.

- Ch 76, 78 the high and low were applied to the difference between superiority and inferiority.

[dust]

I wouldn't like to use the word 'class'

 

But yes, LZ talks of ruler and ruled; the ruler is the lower

 

Higher in Tao, lower in people's esteem

 

 

 

Come to think of it, in the GD, the word "slave" or "servant" comes up in 2 spots:

 

道恒亡名 The Way is unidentifiable

僕唯妻 It serves all (32)

 

將貞之以亡名之僕 Pure like a nameless servant (37)

 

...and these are both referring to Tao

[ChiDragon]

I wouldn't like to use the word 'class'

But yes, LZ talks of ruler and ruled; the ruler is the lower

Higher in Tao, lower in people's esteem

 

Come to think of it, in the GD, the word "slave" or "servant" comes up in 2 spots:

道恒亡名 The Way is unidentifiable

僕唯妻 It serves all (32)

 

將貞之以亡名之僕 Pure like a nameless servant (37)

 

...and these are both referring to Tao

 

The reason I use class is because Chapter 66 Lao Zi used Low(下) for the people and upper(上) for the ruler.

道恒亡名 Tao is always nameless.

 

I don't know where did you get this from.

僕唯妻 It serves all (32)

Servant only wife....???

 

將貞之以亡名之僕 Pure like a nameless servant (37)

 

My received version says this:

吾將鎮之以無名之樸

樸 is an uncarved block which was referred as Tao. So it was the nameless(無名).

 

Edited December 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

 

孟子曰：「其詳不可得聞也。諸侯惡其害己也，而皆去其籍。然而軻也，嘗聞其略也。天子一位，公一位，侯一位，伯一位，子、男同一位，凡五等也。君一位，卿一位，大夫一位，上士一位，中士一位，下士一位，凡六等。

 

 

 

 

 

Mencius replied, 'The particulars of that arrangement cannot be learned, for the princes, disliking them as injurious to themselves, have all made away with the records of them. Still I have learned the general outline of them. The Son of Heaven constituted one dignity; the Gong one; the Hou one; the Bai one; and the Zi and the Nan each one of equal rank - altogether making five degrees of rank. The Ruler again constituted one dignity; the Chief Minister one; the Great Officers one; the Scholars of the First Class one; those of the Middle Class one; and those of the Lowest Class one - altogether making six degrees of dignity.

 

[dust]

I don't know where did you get this from.

 

僕唯妻 It serves all (32)

Servant only wife....???

 

郭店

作爲天地萬物的公僕，永遠處於輔助的位置

 

 

My received version says this:

吾將鎮之以無名之樸

樸 is an uncarved block which was referred as Tao. So it was the nameless(無名).

 

郭店

將貞之以亡名之僕

= 無名的僕人

 

Can you occasionally make room for the fact that the GD is often different to the received version, and that it might be able to tell us something useful?

 

Anyway, if this is 樸 and not 僕, then there is no mention of servant or slave in the GD at all... so either way we never have the word servant used to rank people in terms of quality or birth

[dust]

孟子曰：「其詳不可得聞也。諸侯惡其害己也，而皆去其籍。然而軻也，嘗聞其略也。天子一位，公一位，侯一位，伯一位，子、男同一位，凡五等也。君一位，卿一位，大夫一位，上士一位，中士一位，下士一位，凡六等。

 

北宮錡問曰：「周室班爵祿也，如之何？

Bei Gong Qi asked: How was the class system organized during Zhou?

 

 

Not sure that this is directly relevant to the Laozi itself...?

 

 

edit: What I mean is, of course there was a class system. There's been one in every state throughout history, and there still is. That's how people work. But that doesn't mean that Taoism is, or Laozi was, concerned with implementing or maintaining some kind of ritualistic, birth-based hierarchy.

Edited December 13, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

mean is, of course there was a class system. There's been one in every state throughout history, and there still is. That's how people work. But that doesn't mean that Taoism is, or Laozi was, concerned with implementing or maintaining some kind of ritualistic, birth-based hierarchy.

What about a meritocracy? R u cool with it?

[dust]

Can't really argue with that.

 

There's obviously governance -- lots of talk of a ruler and 'the people'.. and the idea is for the ruler to be "skilled" at the Way, so... I suppose that would be a meritocracy, right? But then again, the ruler is supposed to control by leaving things alone.

 

It could be that I'm the ruler, since I just go about leaving people to do as they wish.

[Marblehead]

But then again, the ruler is supposed to control by leaving things alone.

Hell will freeze over before you find one like that!

[dawei]

So, about that laugh. Is it a laugh of derision at Dao or a laugh of joy with Dao?

 

When I read it the very first time... I thought it was a laugh of joy or similar to the 'Zen laugh' (I've had occasion for the latter).

 

i donno. but i was in many a class where a tier of students could not cope with the subject. Like crystallography оr tax accounting. Some guys would go blank in the eyes, some would curse and hiss, some would denigrate the usefullness of the subject. Never ever would anybody laugh. So i donno what so funny here.

 

Or the laugh could be not about something funny but internal discomfort which gets masked with a nervous laugh.

 

In any case, the traditional rendering seems to mean they don't really understand or know Dao.

[dust]

上士昏道堇能行於丌中 When a scholar of high learning hears of the Way, he finds difficulty walking in it,

中士昏道若昏若亡 When a scholar of middle learning hears of the Way, he is unsure,

下士昏道大笑之 When a scholar of low learning hears of the Way, he laughs aloud;

弗大笑不足以爲道矣 Without laughter there is not enough to follow the Way

 

There's then a long list of contradictory phrases, e.g. the bright way seems hidden, great purity seems dirty

 

What he's saying, I think, is that those of low learning find it easier to comprehend the Way..because their minds are not full of nonsense and fluffy ideas; good understanding of Dao seems like low learning

 

 

Before I bang the gavel on my participation in this discussion, does anyone have any evidence or idea that contradicts this interpretation? Anything that honestly makes more sense than this?

 

 

Edited December 13, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

Before I bang the gavel on my participation in this discussion, does anyone have any evidence or idea that contradicts this interpretation?

Speak Now or Shut Up Forever!

 

 

 

All righty so this chpt. is about the chain of command. It is a bit garbled and overburdened with redundancies but its general idea shines through it all.

 

《道德經》: 41

上士聞道，勤能行於其中；

The upper level officials hear the command of Dao and propagate it to the middle level officials;

中士聞道，若存若亡；

The middle level officials receive that command and implement it inexplicitly (1);

下士聞道，大笑之。The lowest level officials receive that command from the middle level officials and react with great laughter of awe (2).

不笑不足以為道。

If there would not be any great laughter then it would indicate that Dao has not been propagated sufficiently (to reach the lowest level of management).

故建言有之：therefore this is the progression of Dao being put into words (to reach the upper level):

明道若昧；進道若退；夷道若纇；上德若谷；

太白若辱；廣德若不足；建德若偷；質真若渝；

大方無隅；大器晚成；大音希聲；大象無形；道隱無名。

The bright Dao without attributes <- the great tone without a sound <- the hidden Dao within the Nameless.

夫唯道，善始且善成。

In such a hierarchy of command – the goodness of the beginning will be passed through to the good end.

 

(1)

 

上天蒼蒼，若存若亡。《二十三年》

The great Heaven on high green and blue, both is and is not there.

 

聖人之道，若存若亡。《心術下 - Xin Shu II》

The Dao of sages, both is and is not there.

 

(2)

諸侯悉至，至而無寇，褒姒乃大笑。《周本紀》

The all officials-hou received this, … praised with great laughter.

 

望見簡子大笑；簡子曰：「子何笑？」對曰：「臣有夙笑。」《正諫》

…he looked at Jian-zi with great laughter; Jian-zi asked: why are you laughing?

Answered: your servant laughs with a laughter of awe.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

Or the laugh could be not about something funny but internal discomfort which gets masked with a nervous laugh.

That was mine. My first reading brought laughter thinking how strange the philosophy is. But it took only a few hours before I looked for another translation to read. I guess my laughter was from thinking that life couldn't possibly be that easy.

[Marblehead]

Anything that honestly makes more sense than this?

 

 

Don't ask me; I'm just an observer.

[dust]

Speak Now or Shut Up Forever!

 

Well, "speak now or I'll stop paying attention because I've already got an answer that I'm happy with", anyway

 

 

All righty so this chpt. is about the chain of command. It is a bit garbled and overburdened with redundancies but its general idea shines through it all.

 

I gotta disagree that it "shines through".. maybe it glints occasionally, but that might just be by accident

 

 

上士聞道，勤能行於其中；

The upper level officials hear the command of Dao and propagate it to the middle level officials;

 

Firstly, what is the command of Dao?

 

Secondly, instead of 其中 (which most likely refers to the 上士) why wouldn't he simply say 行於中士 ?

 

 

下士聞道，大笑之。The lowest level officials receive that command from the middle level officials and react with great laughter of awe

(2)

諸侯悉至，至而無寇，褒姒乃大笑。《周本紀》

The all officials-hou received this, … praised with great laughter.

 

I don't think you actually read this...!! The full paragraph is about King You trying to make his concubine laugh. So yeah she's laughing, but in delight.

 

望見簡子大笑；簡子曰：「子何笑？」對曰：「臣有夙笑。」《正諫》

…he looked at Jian-zi with great laughter; Jian-zi asked: why are you laughing?

Answered: your servant laughs with a laughter of awe.

 

I'm not sure what 夙 means but it doesn't seem to mean 'awe'

 

 

不笑不足以為道。

If there would not be any great laughter then it would indicate that Dao has not been propagated sufficiently (to reach the lowest level of management).

 

Why?

 

 

夫唯道，善始且善成。

In such a hierarchy of command – the goodness of the beginning will be passed through to the good end.

 

Why translate 道 as "hierarchy of command" ??

[dust]

Don't ask me; I'm just an observer.

 

From your general understanding, though, would you say that my interpretation is consistent with Laozi?

 

You must have something more to say!!

[Marblehead]

I always have something more to say.

 

Okay, let's look:

 

When a scholar of high learning hears of the Way, he finds difficulty walking in it,

When a scholar of middle learning hears of the Way, he is unsure,

When a scholar of low learning hears of the Way, he laughs aloud;

Without laughter there is not enough to follow the Way

 

Remembering that we are told to discard knowledge as it gets in the way of realizing the Tao. So the more knowledge one has the more difficult it would be to see the simple truth.

 

And then there is the laughter. Like the farmer who has worked with and lived with nature his entire life. Laughter and then says, "Do you really think you are telling me something new?"

[dawei]

I always have something more to say.

 

Okay, let's look:

 

When a scholar of high learning hears of the Way, he finds difficulty walking in it,

When a scholar of middle learning hears of the Way, he is unsure,

When a scholar of low learning hears of the Way, he laughs aloud;

Without laughter there is not enough to follow the Way

 

Remembering that we are told to discard knowledge as it gets in the way of realizing the Tao. So the more knowledge one has the more difficult it would be to see the simple truth.

 

And then there is the laughter. Like the farmer who has worked with and lived with nature his entire life. Laughter and then says, "Do you really think you are telling me something new?"

 

Too cool... your going deep in an evaluation of a translation

 

I find the main problem in the above three Scholar lines is that none of them can understand Dao... SO I am not sure where that translation is going.

[Marblehead]

I find the main problem in the above three Scholar lines is that none of them can understand Dao... SO I am not sure where that translation is going.

Yes, that is a problem with the text, regardless of translator. Lao Tzu does not give us a direct answer. He leaves it as a paradox.

 

But then, who of us can actually "understand" the Tao? There will always be a problem when we ask the question "Why?" Even religious people cannot adequate answer this question and they are supposed to have all the answers.

 

Good thing I can't translate from Chinese into English. I would be a real pain for those folks who can.

 

Red Pine actually did a pretty nice job with these lines:

 

When a great person hears of the Way

he follows it with devotion

when an average person hears of the Way

he doesn't know if it's real or not

When a small person hears of the Way

he laughs out loud

if he didn't laugh

it wouldn't be the Way.

 

 

Different perspectives.

[Taoist Texts]

Well, "speak now or I'll stop paying attention because I've already got an answer that I'm happy with", anyway

hehe;) thats cool, plenty of other juicy chapters await us

 

 

 

I gotta disagree that it "shines through".. maybe it glints occasionally, but that might just be by accident

 

 

 

Firstly, what is the command of Dao?

As you may notice from any folklore or even from Political Sc 101, the governemnt structure is mostly dual on the top: there is a king/president who commands and there is a prime minister who advises him as to what to do. But who advises the prime minister? In ancient China that would be Dao/Heaven, into which he alone can tune in, get the memo from the Heaven, and pass the Heavenly memo down the line

 

 

Secondly, instead of 其中 (which most likely refers to the 上士) why wouldn't he simply say 行於中士 ?

 

Thats a fair question. My theory is that TTC was garbled in transmission, and we reconstruct it back using the few surviving clues like that. Also, the chpt clearly consists of 2 paragraphs, both hierarchical, one having to do with 'hearing' and the other one with perceiving the 'nameless Dao'. That should tell us something.

 

 

 

I don't think you actually read this...!! The full paragraph is about King You trying to make his concubine laugh. So yeah she's laughing, but in delight.

 

Great. The details aside, i think thats how the ancient psyche differed from ours. There are quite a scholarly few works on historical psychology who demonstrate how the ancients were much more emotional in their body language. So great laughter is the indication that the memo hit home and will be carried out.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what 夙 means but it doesn't seem to mean 'awe'

 

夙

sù

【动】

肃敬〖respect〗

http://xh.5156edu.com/html3/9960.html

 

 

Why translate 道 as "hierarchy of command" ??

 

As we know Dao is not only a way but also a word. A word is a command. The next sentence 善始且善成 tells us that if this hierarchy is in place then that Dao-word takes place in a good beginning ' the nameless' on high; and ends well received as indicated by the great laughter (something clicked) at the bottom.

[ChiDragon]

Before I bang the gavel on my participation in this discussion, does anyone have any evidence or idea that contradicts this interpretation? Anything that honestly makes more sense than this?

 

May I give it a try....???

 

《道德經》: 41

上士聞道，勤能行於其中；

An upper level scholar hears the principles of Tao, he would cultivate(修行) them diligently.

 

中士聞道，若存若亡；

A middle level scholar hears the principles of Tao, it seems to be obscure.

 

下士聞道，大笑之。

A lower level scholar hears the principles of Tao will give them a big laugh.

 

不笑不足以為道。

If Tao wasn't being laughed at, then, Tao wouldn't be good enough to be Tao.

Edited December 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

OK. We have 3 completely differing interpretations! I won't say any are wrong...but I still prefer mine. And Marbles's.

 

 

As you may notice from any folklore or even from Political Sc 101, the governemnt structure is mostly dual on the top: there is a king/president who commands and there is a prime minister who advises him as to what to do. But who advises the prime minister? In ancient China that would be Dao/Heaven, into which he alone can tune in, get the memo from the Heaven, and pass the Heavenly memo down the line

 

Awright

 

 

Thats a fair question. My theory is that TTC was garbled in transmission, and we reconstruct it back using the few surviving clues like that. Also, the chpt clearly consists of 2 paragraphs, both hierarchical, one having to do with 'hearing' and the other one with perceiving the 'nameless Dao'. That should tell us something.

 

Agreed that the chapter is in 2 parts, but I think they connect very easily if we consider a common connection: what is bright seems dirty; what is clever seems stupid...

 

 

Great. The details aside, i think thats how the ancient psyche differed from ours. There are quite a scholarly few works on historical psychology who demonstrate how the ancients were much more emotional in their body language. So great laughter is the indication that the memo hit home and will be carried out.

 

Sure. Any interpretation so far for the reason for this laughter seems possible..

 

 

 

夙
sù
【动】
肃敬〖respect〗

http://xh.5156edu.com/html3/9960.html

 

OK good.. but doesn't this mean that the laugh in that text is specified at respectful/awed, whereas the laugh in this chapter isn't specified as anything but 大 ?

 

 

 

As we know Dao is not only a way but also a word. A word is a command. The next sentence 善始且善成 tells us that if this hierarchy is in place then that Dao-word takes place in a good beginning ' the nameless' on high; and ends well received as indicated by the great laughter (something clicked) at the bottom.

 

A word can be a command, but surely there are lots of words that could be used as "command" ? 令 / 命 is used often in the GD

[dust]

May I give it a try....???

 

No, dammit

 

 

上士聞道，勤能行於其中；

An upper level scholar hears the principles of Tao, he would cultivate(修行) them diligently.

 

勤 as "diligent" means that he works hard.... is that because he finds it difficult?

 

 

中士聞道，若存若亡；

A middle level scholar hears the principles of Tao, it seems to be obscure.

 

I don't think anyone disagrees greatly on this line. The middle one is in the middle.

 

 

下士聞道，大笑之。

A lower level scholar hears the principles of Tao will give them a big laugh.

 

But what's the reason for the laugh? Not because Tao seems easy to him?

[Michael Sternbach]

But what's the reason for the laugh? Not because Tao seems easy to him?

 

This is an interesting discussion. So far I always took it for granted that Lao Tzu is talking about the non-Daoists making fun of the Daoist's way. But some posts on this thread offer a different view.

 

I always found it peculiar that many translations explicitly mention scholars or even sages of lower degree. Lower degree or not, why do they deserve such a title in Lao Tzu's view even though they are totally ignorant of Dao?

 

A couple of possibilities... Is it because only scholars were able to read Daoist literature in the first place? Or could it be that many a scholar/academic was particularly inclined to ridicule Dao because of their own intricacy and over-intellectualizing (much like in our time)?