Taoist Philosophy - Chapter 115

[Marblehead]

The Fear Of Death

 

If the people were constant in their behavior
And yet did not fear death,
How could you use execution to intimidate them?
If you brought it about
That the people were constant in their behavior
And moreover feared death,
And we took those who behaved in abnormal ways
And killed them;
Who would dare act in this way?!


On Promotions And Punishments

“Since the days of the learned ones the world has lived in a helter-skelter of promotions and punishments. What chance have the people left for fulfilling peacefully the natural instincts of their lives?”

Edited March 2, 2013 by Marblehead

[manitou]

If the people are constant in their behavior, this would imply that they are task-oriented and not worrying about tomorrow (or 'death') because they would always be in the Here and Now. The idea of execution wouldn't phase them much for two reasons; they would have nothing to fear because they are adhering to the simplicity; also, the fear of the end of their life wouldn't be with them much, for they focus on what's in front of them.

 

What I have a problem with is the second part of this. It seems to be a huge argument in favor of capital punishment, and I'm relatively sure this isn't the right interpretation.

[Marblehead]

If the people are constant in their behavior, this would imply that they are task-oriented and not worrying about tomorrow (or 'death') because they would always be in the Here and Now. The idea of execution wouldn't phase them much for two reasons; they would have nothing to fear because they are adhering to the simplicity; also, the fear of the end of their life wouldn't be with them much, for they focus on what's in front of them.

 

What I have a problem with is the second part of this. It seems to be a huge argument in favor of capital punishment, and I'm relatively sure this isn't the right interpretation.

 

 

Yeah, this is a tough one. I don't recall who Lao Tzu translation that is but it really doesn't matter.

 

Capital punishment was common back in the days of Lao Tzu. I suppose the issue had to be spoken to.

 

I really don't think Lao Tzu was in favor of capital punishment (to be up front, I am) but I think this section was speaking more to the ideal of all the people doing the right thing so that capital punishment would never be a consideration as a punishment.

[manitou]

Good point. The ideal...yes.

[deci belle]

On Promotions And Punishments

 

“Since the days of the learned ones the world has lived in a helter-skelter of promotions and punishments. What chance have the people left for fulfilling peacefully the natural instincts of their lives?”

Is this included in the original chapter, Marblehead? This seems a suitable way to conclude this section.

 

How can this be construed as a lament of self pity? I believe this has been issued as a challenge to us all. It is up to us personally as individuals to realize our potential despite conditions.

Edited May 15, 2011 by deci belle

[Everything]

[Marblehead]

Is this included in the original chapter, Marblehead? This seems a suitable way to conclude this section.

 

How can this be construed as a lament of self pity? I believe this has been issued as a challenge to us all. It is up to us personally as individuals to realize our potential despite conditions.

 

That is Chuang Tzu. Likely Lin Yutang's translation.

 

And I agree with you. I don't think it can ever be said that Chuang Tzu was a pessimist. More of an optimist, in my opinion.

 

And yes, the challenge is ours. We can follow the learned ones and rush after promotions and honors or we can ignore them and live according to our true nature.

[Marblehead]

Without the fear of death, natural behavior arises naturally. With the fear of death nature is denied. The denial of nature, or of that which is natural, leads to supression and corruption. Allow abnormal behaviour without interference and nature will naturally get rid of this uncommon phenomena when it is required. Scaring away bad habbits has a tendency to make them grow. Etc

 

This piece of text can be interpreted in many ways, giving rise to a discussion of wisdom rather then intellect. I like that. I admire the wisdom of its writer and feel obliged to use this wisdom responsibly, for it holds potential of power to some degree.

 

Very nice first paragraph. I have nothing to add.

 

Second paragraph: Great insight. And an important one, I think. I do agree, wisdom will often lead to the possibility of acquiring power (over others). If we allow this to happen we are doing the same thing that is being spoke against here.

 

I think it is important for the Sage to use his/her wisdom to teach the people how to free themselves from their chains.

[Apech]

I'm not sure the quote is the complete Ch. 74.

 

I found this for instance:

 

If people are not afraid of dying,

Why threaten them with death?

If people live in constant fear of death,

And if breaking the law is punished by death,

Then who would dare?

There is one appointed supreme executioner.

Truly, trying to take the place of the supreme executioner

Is like trying to carve wood like a master carpenter.

Of those who try to carve wood like a master carpenter,

There are few who do not injure their hands.

 

Here Someone's blog

 

I think what is being said is .... don't try to take the place of death itself. If you do then it will rebound on you (injure your own hands).

 

People die when it is the right time for them to die. To go back to the capital punishment thing ... well it could be that it is the right time for a murderer to die when he is in the electric chair (I suppose). But the people administering this must be careful they are not usurping nature.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I never said I was presenting entire TTC chapters.

 

For the point I was presenting here the last section of the chapter Varied from the theme I had in my mind.

 

But yes, I agree with you, if we are to be the executioner we better damn well make sure we are doing the 'right' thing.

[wingzero]

humans are eternal spiritual beings who live forever

[Marblehead]

humans are eternal spiritual beings who live forever

 

Ahhh!!!!!

 

Do you have any proof for that statement?

 

Hehehe.

 

I'm not buying into that stuff.

[deci belle]

humans are eternal spiritual beings who live forever

 

hehe. Humans are a type of created pattern of awareness. As such, humans do not live forever. However, human being, as a type of awareness function, is itself uncreated and therefore circulates within immaterial selfless potential, unborn and undying. The true intent of human being is open sincerity, which has no location. This is eternal.

 

Though they have volition and can be located, spirits are not spiritual. People don't know that the nonpsychological is spiritual. Therefore, spirits and ghosts are not eternal as spirits and ghosts, because they exist.

 

Perhaps wingzero was inferring that when one is executed rightly or by mistake, nothing is really lost? wingzero? What was the thrust of your statement?

[Marblehead]

Hi Deci Belle,

 

Fair comments.

 

I just think it is an error to attempt to speak to the issue of spirituality while discussing Taoist Philosophy. The two concepts are really not very compatible.

[Everything]

I think it is important for the Sage to use his/her wisdom to teach the people how to free themselves from their chains.

Coulden't have said it better my self.

 

It would be ideal if all students sucked up the wisdom of the sages and then ran away... Around the whole world... Spreading the message of freedom.

 

It's a great thing being able to depend on all the generosity out there. Sometimes I feel like the generosity itself is tje biggest inner treasure one can find. I have yet to find mine. I don't think it is going to be money in my case