Dependent Origination

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

To Ya Mu,

 

One possible answer to this question deals with rebirth after this life. As you may of heard on this thread, certain beliefs will lead to rebirth in a formless heaven. Sounds great right? Think, even though you'll be hanging out in those blissful states for eons eventually your good karma will run out. Where you go afterwards depends on your karma. You can fall into a lower existences as an animal, hungry ghost, or suffering in one of the myriad of hells.

 

Basically when you achieve the Dharmakaya in this lifetime (or in the bardo state) YOU control where you reincarnate to benefit as many beings as possible. In other words karma doesn't dictate where you reincarnate, YOU do.

 

Buddhism talks of how hard it is to acquire a human form (they usually compare it to a turtle who just happens to pop its head through a hole in a peice of driftwood in the ocean.) We are lucky that we have a chance in this lifetime to cultivate in fully functional, complete bodies.

 

Seriously, think how many animals, fish, and bacteria compared to us humans there are in this world. Even if you do have the karma and merit to be born as a person; think about the certainty of not being aborted, dying at birth or early on in life, not being born with mental retardation or some neurological disease, being born with all your limbs with full functionality. Look around you, how many people have a clue as to the importance of this life? Or even having the merit to run into the right cultivation teachings?

 

Shit, think about being born as a factory farm animal, cooped up you're whole measly existence, only to be slaughtered in the end. Suffocating, dying as a fish on the deck of a fishing vessel. You've reached a certain stage in your cultivation, have you seen the hungry ghosts with their deformed bodies?

 

Like I said those of us who have a fully functioning brain and body can thank ourselves for past karma and merit. For being born in a country that doesn't have rampant poverty or not being persecuted for our beliefs or lifestyle. That's all I'm getting into now, so I'm out.

 

 

I have to remind myself of this when I go into a Walmart (rarely) and see masses of sleeping slobs dwelling in their lower chakras. Too bad humans too often waste the precious gift of a human birth.

Edited February 6, 2011 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

A start, but the breath, channels opening, etc. has nothing to do with the dependent origination belief. It is common in many systems. What exactly has the belief done - it has most definitely not, for humanity, done this, "Understanding of Dependent Origination... thereby ending all mental and physical suffering" Unbinding from obsessive thoughts is also common in many systems and not dependent on dependent origination belief.

 

Not complete unbinding.

 

Complete unbinding has happened for countless Buddhists throughout the centuries. You might or probably won't notice if you don't commit to connecting to these beings through study or insight that is directly associated with Buddhist lineage.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Obviously your view has clouded your experience.

 

All the Buddhist friends that I know of are engaged not only in inner alchemy towards the positive outcome of enlightened vision but external charity of small to large proportions, including ChNNR and Namdrol.

 

I have sincere compassion for your difficult predicament of poor vision disabling your experience of things associated with Buddhism.

 

I'm sorry, but I know a lot of nice American Buddhists who, generally speaking are caught up in their own 'stuff'. I am not that impressed by their service work. They seem to be mostly caught up in their heads rather than engaged socially. I know this is an over-generalization, but still. I agree with Ya Mu. Vaj, what kinds of external charity are you engaged in?

[Vajrahridaya]

There's can't be two separate truths standing alone. There is one truth.

 

There is no "one truth" in Buddhism, and that's what dependent origination means.

 

All you people seem to have very topical understandings of dependent origination and are debating from this very epidermic level of understanding. I suggest contemplating deeper within the concept, so that it becomes a realization before clinging to mistaken views concerning it.

 

There is no "ultimate truth" that we are all one with in Buddhism, this is a samsaric concept as well as experience according to Buddhism. We are not after the, "I AM" state of mind that you keep going on about.

 

The "I AM" state of being is mistaking expanded awareness for primal origin and primordial "selfness" of all. This does not lead to complete unbinding, nor does it lead to Buddhahood.

[Vajrahridaya]

Well, of course I don't "get" dependent origination. Otherwise I would have given the same over and over theoretical argument that has been used here that of course is dependent on the belief that this is so. Which is why I asked for practical examples.

AND, the channels opening have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the belief in dependent origination as they open quite well with other practices that have nothing to do with this belief.

 

Yes, but generally speaking, they open differently and towards a different goal in other systems.

 

The way the channels are treated both theoretically and experientially in Buddhism is different. We actually develop different dimensions of energetic experience and insight into energy itself through contemplation of dependent origination, instead of the idea of a "static and eternal truth" that all things definitely "are" which is where most systems arise from.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

We are not after the, "I AM" state of mind that you keep going on about.

 

The "I AM" state of being is mistaking expanded awareness for primal origin and primordial "selfness" of all. This does not lead to complete unbinding, nor does it lead to Buddhahood.

 

 

So, what is this state of 'Buddhahood' that you keep going on about? Who are examples of this? You apparently believe you are well on your way to becoming a 'Buddha'. Why? From your writings you seem to point to it being the natural result of ?believing in? ?engaging? dependent origination.

Edited February 6, 2011 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm sorry, but I know a lot of nice American Buddhists who, generally speaking are caught up in their own 'stuff'. I am not that impressed by their service work. They seem to be mostly caught up in their heads rather than engaged socially. I know this is an over-generalization, but still. I agree with Ya Mu. Vaj, what kinds of external charity are you engaged in?

 

For 21 years my life has been engaged in the service industry of one type of another. My practice has made me better at making people happy through my service towards them, either in the food or entertainment services. If I have food or money to give and it feels appropriate, I give.

 

I'm a small worker in this sense with no large means. I also give here through understanding which is received well by plenty as well as disparaged by plenty of you, but none the less, I understand it's value and plenty do as well.

 

I also consider being on TTB to be a service.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

 

I also consider being on TTB to be a service.

 

 

Oh, puh-lease!!

[Vajrahridaya]

I cannot let this one go.

 

My inner peace and contentment was and still is independantly originated. I created my reality that allowed it to happen.

 

No you didn't, as you are a product of your parents, environment and the information that you both choose and not to chose that has invaded and permeated through your senses throughout your entire life into your conscious and subconscious mind which you consider and also are not yet aware of as your "personal self."

 

You, yourself are not independently originated, you did not just spontaneously manifest out of a void of absolute nothingness, so neither is your perception, interpretation or experience of reality through your dependently originated self independent in any sense at all.

[Marblehead]

I'm not going to say I laughed because of those last two posts. Hehehe.

[Vajrahridaya]

From what I have observed, the philosophy of D.O. has become simplistic, which leads to complacency and laziness. Believers that stop at this point are short changing themselves and others.

 

Exactly, what do the proponents here of D.O. going to do with it? Anything concrete and constructive?

 

"simplistic?"

 

You obviously haven't studied abidharma or abidharma kosha.

 

You need insight into dependent origination to understand directly how both infinitely complex and simple it is.

 

dependent origination actually reveals an endless regress of complexity without rooftop or bottom. There is no end to complexity when it comes to dependent origination.

[Vajrahridaya]

So, what is this state of 'Buddhahood' that you keep going on about? Who are examples of this? You apparently believe you are well on your way to becoming a 'Buddha'. Why? From your writings you seem to point to it being the natural result of ?believing in? ?engaging? dependent origination.

 

The numbers are endless... but you might start with reading this...

The Eighty-four Mahasiddhas and the Path of Tantra

[ralis]

Obviously your view has clouded your experience.

 

All the Buddhist friends that I know of are engaged not only in inner alchemy towards the positive outcome of enlightened vision but external charity of small to large proportions, including ChNNR and Namdrol.

 

I have sincere compassion for your difficult predicament of poor vision disabling your experience of things associated with Buddhism.

 

How many thousands of hours have you spent online preaching? Yet you have stated any number of times on here that you don't have any money to help your wife obtain her green card. I guess that is the fault of dependent origination?

[Marblehead]

No you didn't, as you are a product of your parents, environment and the information that you both choose and not to chose that has invaded and permeated through your senses throughout your entire life into your conscious and subconscious mind which you consider and also are not yet aware of as your "personal self."

 

You, yourself are not independently originated, you did not just spontaneously manifest out of a void of absolute nothingness, so neither is your perception, interpretation or experience of reality through your dependently originated self independent in any sense at all.

 

I never said "I" was independently originated.

 

I said the my inner peace and contentment was of my own making. I was influenced by my parent only until I was 11 years old. After that I mostly did my own thing. I abandoned everything from those 11 years of my life. And don't fool yourself. There are people who can have original thought and can act upon those thoughts. I am living proof of that. And I didn't need a Buddha or a Jesus to show me the way. I found my own way just as many other people do.

 

There is no one single path for humanity to follow. There are many paths and some of us create our own paths where none have ventured before.

 

So please don't tell me what I did and didn't do because you were not even a part of my life for the first 68 years of it therefore you know absolutely nothing about what I did during those 68 years.

 

As far as my environment, I always created my own, even when I was in the Army. As for the information I was subjected to, I made the conscious choice as to what I would accept and what I would discard. So these too are of my own making - that is - independently originated.

 

And for you to suggest that I do not know myself is really off the freakin' wall. You have no idea and are just running your mouth trying to impress people. You missed the boat this time fella.

[Ya Mu]

@ Mr Ya Mu....

 

D. O. is not a belief system. It is that which underlies and underpins every aspect of existence, and non-existence, for that matter. For want of a metaphor, it is like the ocean, and everything (the waves) else that breathes, moves, does chi gung, have orgasms, have kids, not have kids, be kind and compassionate (or not - one's choice, based on what one has integrated in life, whereby this integration would largely be moulded dependent on many, many causes and conditions), which, at the fundamental level, is what D. O. is all about, which then, hopefully, also helps one understand how to take proper responsibility for working out one's own freedom, but, BUT, while working out one's own freedom (from whatever one thinks one needs to be free from - although when perfectly understood, D. O. will shine the words, "Freedom has always been yours" right inside your heart), one will see clearly that this exercise of trying to free oneself is indeed dependent on many factors that has to come and go in order for one to make one's quest (in your case, attunement with higher energetic sources?) possible, otherwise, the quest, which cannot be an independent thing, becomes rather meaningless. What we do in life gets meaning only to the extent we are able to give what we have, the fruits of our quest, to lighten others who are also on the same journey, after all, of what good are spiritual aspirations if its only to save oneself?

 

In many ways, insight into D. O. helps one to see that others are just as pertinent when one aims to realize one's aspirations, howsoever big or small these may be. The more one can accommodate and assist others, the greater the rewards for every one involved - this is also another principle of D. O. btw.

 

 

I am assuming that your primary role in life now is to help others attune and attain that which you have realized? This is very noble; when you look deeper into this noble motive, you will see D. O. at work, whether you are conscious of its principle or not, it does not matter - D. O. does not need anybody's approval, verification, belief, or study, to work - it is not like Chi Gung, or Nei Gung, or a form of anything - it is formless, yet all forms are dependent on it. It also transcends all cultural trappings, yet at the same time, cultures also build around it, or sometimes, disintegrates because of it - at the microcosmic level, this applies to us as single humans as well.

 

Naturally, it would be more helpful if you did understand D.O. ... and this is where a lot of the Buddhist practices (not beliefs) can be quite enlivening.

 

 

Much respect.

Ah, finally a thoughtful post. Thanks.

 

 

I believe that if you substituted the words "the Light" or Awareness of and attunement to the Light" everywhere in your above paragraph (and please don't forget the last sentence) you would have my view. My view is something that I don't ask people to believe one word of.

 

I STILL, though, although you finally touched upon it (one small part), wish my original question would be addressed. Is there a reason it can't be addressed?

My original question (statement asking for) that was first asked by the poster "Ben", which has never been addressed:

 

...exactly what does one achieve from this practice and belief system of dependent origination. That is what I would like to read, actual experiences of health, happiness, spiritual calmness, help to humanity, etc from those experienced in this belief.

I keep asking this over and over but only to be told I don't understand DO, which I have multi-admitted. So please, no more "But you don't understand D.O. OR "It is not a belief system..", which can be tricky by definition, just give me those wondrous and sparkling reports. And to be fair, one person did say that it doesn't help humanity. Bummer.

[Vajrahridaya]

How many thousands of hours have you spent online preaching? Yet you have stated any number of times on here that you don't have any money to help your wife obtain her green card. I guess that is the fault of dependent origination?

 

Yes... this situation is as well, dependently originated.

 

I'm a pedicab driver... I make as much money as I can working insanely hard at odd hours, for instance until 5 am last night. Should I work 24 hours a day until my legs fall off? She has actually gotten a job, finally. This helps greatly.

 

You are sitting there, judging, from outside the circle of my experience without any insight into it's interior.

[XieJia]

 

And so, I will suggest that there are many ways to get access to ice cream. And one can experience the totality of the experience without ever having been told about ice cream.

 

 

you are welcomed Mr Marblehead; i agree with you totally.

But even the first chapter of the Dao De Jing or the Diamond Sutra to be recited times over times; i doubt there will be any different.

 

i whine too much already; my teacher should be slapping my head already and let out a load belly laugh.

peoples' path are different, would like to be wandering easy myself.

[Vajrahridaya]

Ah, finally a thoughtful post. Thanks.

 

...exactly what does one achieve from this practice and belief system of dependent origination. That is what I would like to read, actual experiences of health, happiness, spiritual calmness, help to humanity, etc from those experienced in this belief.

I keep asking this over and over but only to be told I don't understand DO, which I have multi-admitted. So please, no more "But you don't understand D.O. OR "It is not a belief system..", which can be tricky by definition, just give me those wondrous and sparkling reports. And to be fair, one person did say that it doesn't help humanity. Bummer.

 

I've provided some answers, but you don't read my posts it seems.

 

So be it. The only way to really know is to practice yourself or read some books by Buddhists masters it seems.

 

Why not read this one... The Eighty-four Mahasiddhas and the Path of Tantra (THE MASTERS OF MAHAMUDRA)

[Vajrahridaya]

And for you to suggest that I do not know myself is really off the freakin' wall. You have no idea and are just running your mouth trying to impress people. You missed the boat this time fella.

 

To think that you completely know yourself through and through is really off the freakin' wall... It's obvious by your reactions that you have not. So you've completely delved into your entire potential as a human being and explored every region of your subconscious and unconscious illuminating every crevice of your inner being?

[ralis]

Yes... this situation is as well, dependently originated.

 

I'm a pedicab driver... I make as much money as I can working insanely hard at odd hours, for instance until 5 am last night. Should I work 24 hours a day until my legs fall off? She has actually gotten a job, finally. This helps greatly.

 

You are sitting there, judging, from outside the circle of my experience without any insight into it's interior.

 

You have judged me in the same way many times and much more harshly!

[Vajrahridaya]

You have judged me in the same way many times and much more harshly!

 

You actually deserve it and need to hear it... you are quite as LS7 said, which I won't repeat.

 

You take care of that and unbind that... be well!!

 

I'm off to buy dinner...

[ralis]

To think that you completely know yourself through and through is really off the freakin' wall... It's obvious by your reactions that you have not. So you've completely delved into your entire potential as a human being and explored every region of your subconscious and unconscious illuminating every crevice of your inner being?

 

Have you come to know yourself completely? If not, then cease the judgment of others!

[Vajrahridaya]

Have you come to know yourself completely? If not, then cease the judgment of others!

 

ralis, you have been the king of judgement towards me, bashing me for years, insulting my writing style, insulting my personal life, insult after insult. There is hardly even a nice post from you as the vast majority of your posts are insults towards me.

 

You need a good and clean mirror to look into.

[ralis]

ralis, you have been the king of judgement towards me, bashing me for years, insulting my writing style, insulting my personal life, insult after insult. There is hardly even a nice post from you as the vast majority of your posts are insults towards me.

 

You need a good and clean mirror to look into.

 

I am just practicing D.O. My responses are dependently originated from your preaching.

[Ya Mu]

I've provided some answers, but you don't read my posts it seems.

 

So be it. The only way to really know is to practice yourself or read some books by Buddhists masters it seems.

 

Why not read this one... The Eighty-four Mahasiddhas and the Path of Tantra (THE MASTERS OF MAHAMUDRA)

I haven't seen any posts that you addressed to me, can you please point me to them and to the subject I ask? I apologize if I have missed them, but your posts usually are so very long and that makes them very difficult, for me, to read.

So can I assume by your saying this that you are saying the belief of DO DOES offer help to humanity and the other things I asked? Can you give more examples or just point me in this thread to where those answers are?

 

I could suggest to you some Taoist books, but probably the same waste of time as you suggesting a Buddhist book, for neither of us would understand from the book, would we?! As you say, the only way to understand would be to practice it.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Ya Mu