Peaceful Disagreement

[Marblehead]

Sadly, I think most people aren't really interested in the Tao so much, as finding a philosophy that helps them to justify their behavior. They see Taoism on the surface and say, "this is for me. I never have to be moral again! Yay!" Not realizing that Taoism isn't about acting the way you want or being upright, but rather understanding the way the universe works.

 

Aaron

 

Yes. This was especially true during the Hippie era. But I think that today that is not that true anymore.

 

Hehehe. Remember, I am an optimist. I am bound to believe that most who take the time to discuss Taoism rather than just reeding the book and like you said that these folks truely are seeking a deeper understanding and ways to apply the philosophy to their every-day life.

[strawdog65]

There is no way to apply any of these principles in the way you're thinking. Everything proceeds from the deep inner mind down through the body and outward into the world. Once there is a process that's ongoing at the deepest level, you can't change it by force at the level of the body.

 

The only thing you can do is meditate to calm yourself if you aren't naturally calm. If you're already naturally calm, meditating to get calm will make you more disturbed, because it will be pretentious. Once you have a reasonable degree of calm, you reflect on everything we've talked about for 5-10 minutes, or even just for 1 minute. This reflection is not a mechanical process. It's a creative and sometimes unpredictable process. You may get new insights, new angles to investigate, and so on. You may get some insight which surprise you and which even contradict previous information or beliefs. Over the course of many years, like say 10 years, some of your very deeply held beliefs will begin to budge. Once they budge, the process of manifestation which proceeds from the innermost level down through the body and out into the world will start to reflect that change.

 

So it isn't something you do per se. It's not like say setting a bone, or applying stitches to the wound. It's not something like exercise. It's none of those things. Essentially it's a process that involves changing and softening up your beliefs about many things such as yourself, the world, your relationship to the world, and so on. This change occurs most readily in contemplation. If you just refrain from thinking, your beliefs will not melt of their own accord, imo. Why not? Because all things, including beliefs, have habit energy. They have inertia. And they tend to remain the same unless otherwise.

 

In our world everyone has itchy hands and feet. People want to get busy all the time. What do I do? What do I do? Well... nothing much.

 

Meditate, contemplate, investigate and participate as usual.

 

 

 

You're confusing substantial with the superficial. Currently what you think is substantial is actually superficial. What is actually significant you take as superficial. That has to do with your beliefs about the mind and its role in life.

 

 

 

People are never difficult. What's difficult are certain specific actions or expressed beliefs. On the forum you don't have to deal with actions. On the forum the only difficulty is dealing with expressed beliefs. One thing you can try is asking yourself, "Why does this belief, when expressed, bother me?" And take it from there. It may turn out that you don't have a leg to stand on. Or it may turn out that you're bothered for a valid reason. Once you investigate the issue, you'll know what to do on a case by case basis.

 

It's completely wrong to lump all the expressions and behaviors you don't like into one single category of "difficult people." This means you don't plan to investigate the import and impact of actions and expressions on one by one basis, as you should be doing. It means you plan to shut off the source, such as for example, telling the person to shut up, or removing yourself from conversation.

 

People are very complicated and broad. People are like universes. Or you can say people are like oceans. So there is no such thing as a bad or difficult person just like there is no such thing as a difficult ocean. Instead there are difficult events. For example, tsunami is difficult. It's one singular event. Learn to deal with such events either by preparing for them or by accepting them for what they are. But just because an ocean occasionally spits out a tsunami doesn't mean the ocean is bad in and of itself. The same is true with people. A person can do things you don't like, but the person is much too vast and much too mysterious to say the entirety of the person is bad or difficult.

 

So examine the difficulties on case by case basis. Why is hearing this or that difficult? Check it out. Follow it up. And don't think you'll figure it out in one day. Many people are at it for decades and they still haven't figured it out.

 

 

 

That's a very complex question. You can start by following up your feelings. So let's say you spend 30 seconds to calm down, then bring to the foreground of your consciousness a feeling of dissatisfaction as you know it. As you recall how it feels to be dissatisfied with your life, specific events will float up in front of you mind's eye. You might say, "OK that event was unsatisfactory. And that one. And that... oh my, there are many such events, so no wonder I am dissatisfied." Then you follow up, "OK, event A feels unsatisfactory. Why?" "OK, someone told me I was an ass." "Should people never tell me I am an ass?" "Should I be able to accept being told such things?" "Where does the meaning of the words come from?" "An ass has hurtful meaning, but where is this meaning stored?" "Ah, the meaning is stored in my mind." "Why do I think ass has a hurtful meaning?" And so on. It will eventually become obvious what's going on.

 

Eventually, after examining enough unpleasant events on a case by case basis, you might start to discern broad patterns and underlying reasons that are common to all of them. Once you can see what in the abstract sense makes you unsatisfied, you no longer need to investigate events on a case by case basis. At that point, you can pursue your investigation into the common root cause that underlies all the little unsatisfactions.

 

While various people can give you hints, no one can make you realize anything. When you realize something it will be all you.

 

 

 

One way to do it is to consider an idea that your life is more than your job. You work to live and not live to work. If you find your work shitty, you can try to change it and make it less shitty. For example, you can make a lot of jobs less shitty by trying to become more excellent at your craft. Alternatively you can accept that the work is temporarily unpleasant, but consider that you have important mission in life. I'm not telling you what it is, but you can know this mission for yourself. If you don't know it, you can make it your mission to discover your mission. Then, if you can find a purpose, life can be much easier to tolerate and you'll always have the light at the end of the tunnel to look forward to.

 

If you live thinking that it's all hopeless and everything will just vanish anyway, that's a very oppressive and burdensome mental environment to live in.

 

Gih, thanks for replying so thoroughly again.

I appreciate the time and effort of all who are participating in this thread.

I believe it is necessary to try to bring these principles we spend so much

time talking about into the "real" world.

I do not otherwise see the point of talking about Taoism or spending time

reading and studying if it's all just an academic exercise.

 

To me these are real principles, that have real use in the real world.

 

I understand (i think) what you are saying about it taking time to work outwards

from the mind to the body. Once we change our minds the actions of the body

will inevitably follow. And it is something I am witnessing within my self.

 

Patience for allowing what is to be, within me,

is the challenge I am encountering, I guess.

 

Thanks again! Peace!

[strawdog65]

Hello folks,

 

I've been gone all day, so I'm jumping in on the tail end of this conversation. First thing, in regards to peaceful disagreement I think Chapter 81 of the Tao Teh Ching talks about this directly when it says that,

 

"Good men are not argumentative,

The argumentative are not good."

 

If one looks at the various translations they all follow the same idea, that one who should not argue. There's this general idea that circulates that Taoism is about integrity and honesty, that one should act according to their own nature, and if by doing so one offends another, than so be it, but in my opinion that's contrary to what the Tao Teh Ching teaches.

 

No, the Tao Teh Ching is not a moral text, but it is a text that discusses the relative value of humanity, virtue, and ethics. Lao Tzu understood that human society was constructed of rules and that in order to work harmoniously with others, one needed to understand those rules. He also understood that society would always have an ethical value system, good vs. bad, wrong vs. right, etc. What is often inferred by those who have a distaste for morality, is that the Tao Teh Ching advocates a society without ethics and morality, but I have my doubts regarding this, rather I think it urges people to look past the duality that is present and instead see the truth that lays in the whole, it also reminds us that we should still recognize those ethical values and act in a way that is still harmonious with society.

 

That's what people tend to forget, the Tao Teh Ching was written during a time of war, and what it was intended to do was set down a course of action (or non-action) that, if followed by the rulers, would foster peace and harmony in the lands. People tend to look at much of what the Tao Teh Ching says and infer that it is meant for the common man, but in reality, it isn't. When you look at the order of the original chapters in the Guodian texts, one can see a pattern that appears, where the chapters are directing rulers on how they should act, not the common man. It's explaining what the Sages (or Sage-Kings) did and encouraging the rulers to emulate those Sages. The beauty of the text is that these suggestions for rulers can also be applied to our own lives.

 

I know that much of this was an aside from the main topic, but it is important to address if we're going to honestly approach the idea of "Peaceful Disagreement", because the main reason that many people tend to believe that there isn't a need for peaceful disagreement, stems from the idea that we are not required (or recommended) to behave in an ethical or moral fashion.

 

The idea goes that Te is the highest form of action and manifests from Tao, so if one is practicing in accord with the Tao, then Te will manifest as a result. Te is not a process of morality, ethics, or virtue, but rather the innate action that is manifest from Tao, so if one is a "Taoist" and practicing "Tao" then obviously they needn't worry about such trivial things as common courtesy or civility, however the reality is that if one is practicing Te they are civil and courteous, because it is the natural response to discourse. Compassion, moderation, and humility are all products of Te. When one is honestly practicing (or cultivating) Tao, then they should be manifesting these particular aspects of Te in their lives. If they are manifesting these aspects of Te, then they will invariably tend to be "good" men, in the sense that they will not be doing anything that causes disharmony to those around them.

 

With that said, very few people can or do act in accordance with Tao all the time, what happens instead is that people tend to hit sporadic moments when they are in harmony with Tao. In order to become fully aware and practice Tao in every aspect of ones life, then one needs to be able to understand the nature of duality (the paradox state of existence) and also how duality is merely the surface of a greater Way, the Tao. Beyond good and bad, there is just It.

 

When I mentioned in another thread that compassion stems from an understanding of our connection with everything in existence, that we are not "I" but actually "It", I was also stating that at that moment of realization we also develop an innate empathy for all things, because we understand that an action we take towards someone else, is an action we take towards ourself. By putting someone else before me, I am putting myself first, because that person is me.

 

If I am having a discussion with someone else and I am rude or impolite, then I am being rude and impolite to myself as well. On a more understandable and rational level, if I understand the true nature of my connection to the world, then I also have the empathy that's needed to view others suffering and the desire to diminish or extinguish that suffering, so I am less likely to argue with them.

 

If I understand the true nature of this connection I have with everything in existence, then I also understand that I am no better than anyone else, nor any worse, so I should also behave with a degree of humility when I do interact with others.

 

Now the other thing to remember is that this understanding isn't the entirety of everything one needs to be aware of to understand Tao, in fact merely by explaining this concept, tells you that this is not the unnameable Tao we're talking about, but something that comes from Tao. This is something that is developed on the way to understanding and becoming aware of the mystery of mysteries.

 

Anyways, this is long, so rather than continue what would be a protracted essay, I will rather say that the Tao Teh Ching, in my opinion, advocates peaceful disagreement, and there is no valid reason, in my opinion, for one who is attempting to cultivate or practice in accord with Tao, to behave in any other way, if they truly wish to become aware of Tao.

 

Aaron

 

 

Twinner, thanks for your thorough reply as well.

 

I am naturally more aligned with what you have said, in regards to my own feelings

towards the meanings and principles of TTC.

 

I feel it is wrong to create disharmony for selfish and shortsighted reasons.

There would be little or no value of the TTC principles/lessons if I believed that

the principles and lessons in the TTC were weightless and carried no meaning.

 

I believe that we can and should apply these principles to our everyday experiences.

They are understandable, although are not necessarily clear at times, but through sites

such as this we can help each other come to a better understanding by exchanging our

views on meanings which may be cloudy without help.

 

But back to the original question. I do not believe that contentious, disagreement

with obvious animosity and personal slights are beneficial at this stage in my own life.

I do enjoy very vocal, heated discussion, and discussion that evokes a more open minded

point of view , especially one that creates a healthy atmosphere of new understanding.

 

This post was never about being apathetic towards life.

It was never about just giving in and not taking a stand towards what I or anyone else believes.

It was never about anything other than my one central point:

 

We can have peaceful disagreement within a discussion.

 

We can feel the heat and excitement of the opposing view, and still respond with

respect and dignity for the opposer holding that view.

I do not suggest this to be the way for anyone, but myself.

 

Thanks again Twinner!

[strawdog65]

Yeah. I think that this whole issue that you are speaking to is a result of the individual (the one who intentionally disagrees for the purpose of causing disharmony) finding a philosophy that they are drawn to but still do not know how to properly apply to their own life.

 

These people are seeking a better way but are still attached to their former self so I think it is best to not judge them too harshly.

 

 

MH, Yes.

 

That is what I am talking about.

I am not suggesting anyone judge, I am asking though

are the actions of purposefully causing disharmony and

damage to others for the sole reason of vanity, the ways

of the Taoist Sage?

 

What is there to aspire to if we can act with such contempt

and ill will towards everyone and never once own up to our

actions which have precipitated the events that are to follow.

 

We create suffering and discontent willfully when we are

only concerned with our own base desires to be first.

 

How is this to be reconciled within the framework of our

everyday lives?

 

I agree with what others have already said.

 

I am just like you.

 

No one is more right or wrong than the other.

 

But, I also know that my actions have effect.

And should I not use my own growing awareness to

do what is best to create Harmony within my own life?

 

Why would anyone want to create disharmony for the

sake of embracing their own vanity?

 

 

Thanks again MH!

[strawdog65]

What a nice discussion - thanks Dog, for posting this.

 

The Sage has three treasures. The reason he has three treasures is because he has lived by the principles of the TTC, has practiced the motions of the three treasures, and is finally seeing the results. Before he came into possession of the three treasures he was probably a contentious jerk. But no longer.

 

One of the treasures is Love.

One of the treasures is Never Too Much.

One of the treasures is Never Be The First.

 

The one we're talking about here is Never Be the First. This goes directly to contention. We want to be the most correct, the ones with the answers. This is built inside of us. It is built inside of the Sage. But through Practice and allowing others to be the 'first', he is forever removed of the anxiety to be the first. It's better if they never see you coming anyway.

 

How do we remove or file down our need to be the First with the answers, if we desire to do this? We have to go into personality and remove the rough edges; it works very well to do it in consciousness. We can opt instead to let Life be the battering ram, and that would work as well. It would just take a couple lifetimes for all the defects to be washed away by the grand stream. But doing it in willingness in this lifetime is certainly a shortcut. Never Be the First. It has a nice ring to it, once the ego has stopped hollering.

 

Hi Manitou!

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Thank you for citing the three.

My present life is about those things.

 

Love is truly the most important thing we can give

freely to this world, and we have an almost unlimited supply.

 

Living within what you have and not having desires rule your life,

such incredible useful words to live by. Real. Useful.

 

Never proclaiming to know what is best for others, or what you

think to be the ultimate truth of any situation.

 

We only know what is our own "personal truth", and thinking we have

the answers for someone else is the mark of vanity.

Concede to other points of view so that you may better know your self.

It is through listening that we see the world with the perspective that is not our

own. It is through being open to this new perspective that we master ourselves.

 

I come from a past full of contention and the anger and frustration

that accompanied it. Which is why I am sometimes now very perplexed by

people calling themselves "Taoist" and immersing themselves in such deep

useless shit. I'm talking about the whole argument deal. Discussion with heat

but with respect as well is great. Argument with heat and anger is to me a very

useless, base, animalistic urge to be resisted.

I know what lies beneath that anger,I know what good it is.(little if any)

People tend to think(wrongly) that based on writings of a person, that if they write about

being peaceful, and loving, and not wanting to argue, that they are some kind of "dove".

Why not think the opposite? To embrace peace, and love, and seeing the wasted futility

of hateful argument, to mean that this is a person who has already lived a life

of contention, and now sees that a change is necessary.

 

Thanks again for your thoughts!

[Marblehead]

Hi Strawdog,

 

Short answers this time. (Only my opinion, of course.)

 

are the actions of purposefully causing disharmony and

damage to others for the sole reason of vanity, the ways

of the Taoist Sage?

 

No.

 

What is there to aspire to if we can act with such contempt

and ill will towards everyone and never once own up to our

actions which have precipitated the events that are to follow.

 

We never progress.

 

How is this to be reconciled within the framework of our

everyday lives?

 

A learning phase. If we can learn we will progress.

 

And should I not use my own growing awareness to

do what is best to create Harmony within my own life?

 

Absolutely. Regardless of what others do we must still follow our path.

 

Why would anyone want to create disharmony for the

sake of embracing their own vanity?

 

They still have a lesson to learn.

 

[Birch]

I like this board because when people disagree with me they don't (can't) come flying at me with fists and feet - however much whatever I have said offends them (which I never intend to do here BTW).

 

There are no consequences here, whereas, everywhere else in my life, there are and have been consequences. Some of them violent.

 

In fact I rarely intend to use disagreement as offense. There are a few areas left in which I will do it, knowingly, a very few. Unknowingly? I don't know

[Otis]

Sadly, I think most people aren't really interested in the Tao so much, as finding a philosophy that helps them to justify their behavior. They see Taoism on the surface and say, "this is for me. I never have to be moral again! Yay!"

Do you actually know people who believe that?

[Aaron]

Do you actually know people who believe that?

 

I've met some. They seem to believe the Tao advocates natural action and that any action they take, so long as it's "innate" is natural. Hence, they can do whatever "feels right".

 

Aaron

[Birch]

"Sadly, I think most people aren't really interested in the Tao so much, as finding a philosophy that helps them to justify their behavior. They see Taoism on the surface and say, "this is for me. I never have to be moral again! Yay!"

 

Well, I think that's the case. I don't think it's necessarily unfortunate. But I suppose in some respects it is, both for the people who decide to be suddenly "immoral" as well as those that bear the consequences of the latter's actions.

 

I reckon part of the "problem" is that people arrive at "Taoism" after having lived "under the law" and so they swing left instead of right and don't realise how similar the two are.

 

Another reason to practice. IMO, IME.

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi GIH!

 

Well said, and a great story to boot.

 

I am interested in how one resolves this within themselves, when they are the

source of disharmony by way of their own vanity. The Buddha could be said to be

a very vain person based on the idea of never bending to others ideas.

 

 

Why should one bend to ideas that are not conducive to the ultimate state of peace? The ultimate, and perfected state of freedom from psychological suffering?

 

By not bending to other peoples ideas that were not conducive to the highest peace, and remaining peaceful in doing so, he revealed to these people where they're ideas were erroneous, thus he was serving them and pointing them to their own higher capacity for peace.

 

It serves no one to bend to erroneous ideas about the nature of things.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

That's how I see Buddha too. I like Buddha but I don't see him as perfect. I don't see any being as perfect. We're all human.

 

Actually, as he said, he was free from the conditions that define one as human, even though he appeared as one.

 

He was perfect in his attainment of ultimate peace and freedom from psychological suffering.

 

All the other ideas of perfection are merely projections. "Oh... he's not perfect because he turned and his robe knocked over the vase." But then who knows if the vase would have been knocked over by someone else and maybe stubbed someone's toe later? His manifestation in every moment was congruent with what would benefit endless others, and that action may or may not seem to be perfect from the perspective of someone not in that situation, or without as deep of an insight into the continuity of causation as a Buddha?

 

I'm just saying, perfection in the spiritual sense has very little to do with our mundane ideas of perfection. Even though, an enlightened being would most likely come closer to that mundane idea of perfection than those who are flailing through life, confused by chaos.

 

A Buddha is perfect in the sense that they've perfected their inner state of peace and freedom from psychological suffering, even if physical suffering arises or situations of contention and friction arise, a Buddhas state of peace remains perfect and unperturbed, even if it doesn't appear so from the outside.

 

In all the stories about the Buddha, the one fact remains... he was always peaceful and people experienced this around him. Even when he was acting in a fiery way.

[Otis]

I've met some. They seem to believe the Tao advocates natural action and that any action they take, so long as it's "innate" is natural. Hence, they can do whatever "feels right".

 

Aaron

LOL! I guess I'm one of those people.

[Aaron]

LOL! I guess I'm one of those people.

 

 

Hello Otis,

 

I'm not sure if you are. For instance, if you felt like it, would you steal from someone? If you felt like it would you rape or harm someone? The people I'm talking about say any action that's innate, regardless of the consequences, is natural. Most people that follow this view seem to be bitter ex-Christians that view their form of Taoism as a means to escape the chains of guilt from their youth, but a few have a much darker reason for it.

 

 

Aaron

Edited December 24, 2010 by Twinner

[Otis]

Hello Otis,

 

I'm not sure if you are. For instance, if you felt like it, would you steal from someone? If you felt like it would you rape or harm someone?

LOL, I guess I'm not one of those people!

 

But then, I don't have an urge to harm people. Quite the opposite; I loathe hurting others.

 

They seem to believe the Tao advocates natural action and that any action they take, so long as it's "innate" is natural. Hence, they can do whatever "feels right".

This does sound like me, though. Since hurting others doesn't "feel right", then I don't pursue it (I can't speak hypothetically about if it did feel right).

 

I guess I'm a qualified hedonist: because I see my preferences as being all contaminated by ego, I treat them with a sense of humor.

 

Nonetheless, I do feel like the only way for me to learn to follow my path, is by learning to trust my innate sense of direction. Which includes not second-guessing everything.

 

And it includes many acts of intentional misbehavior! Part of my practice includes consciously doing things (that don't hurt others, but) which my inner voices all try to shut down. Learn that those "proper" voices are just another part of the illusion. For example:

 

[manitou]

But then, I don't have an urge to harm people. Quite the opposite; I loathe hurting others.

 

This seems to go to what we were talking about earlier, the three treasures..one of which is Love. The Sage has only love in his heart and therefore probably wouldn't be interested in such raping and pillaging. It's actually a moot point with the Sage. I'm assuming that all of us here who have fallen in love with the Tao are aspiring to be One with the Sage.

[strawdog65]

This seems to go to what we were talking about earlier, the three treasures..one of which is Love. The Sage has only love in his heart and therefore probably wouldn't be interested in such raping and pillaging. It's actually a moot point with the Sage. I'm assuming that all of us here who have fallen in love with the Tao are aspiring to be One with the Sage.

 

 

 

Hi Manitou!

 

If only we could go thru our everyday with the three treasures

at the very forefront of our minds. As a filter of our actions and

decisions. can you imagine what a difference?

 

To subconsciously hold these values, so that innate action

automatically takes shape by these values.

 

Surely the Sage was able to acquire such mastery of his most

base desires when met with a world of choices.

 

To be a Sage ...

 

 

 

Peace!

[manitou]

Hi Manitou!

 

If only we could go thru our everyday with the three treasures

at the very forefront of our minds. As a filter of our actions and

decisions. can you imagine what a difference?

 

To subconsciously hold these values, so that innate action

automatically takes shape by these values.

 

Surely the Sage was able to acquire such mastery of his most

base desires when met with a world of choices.

 

To be a Sage ...

 

 

 

Peace!

 

 

Dawg - I just voted you the Person I'd Like to Most Sit Down and Smoke a Joint With.

[Aaron]

LOL, I guess I'm not one of those people!

 

But then, I don't have an urge to harm people. Quite the opposite; I loathe hurting others.

 

 

This does sound like me, though. Since hurting others doesn't "feel right", then I don't pursue it (I can't speak hypothetically about if it did feel right).

 

I guess I'm a qualified hedonist: because I see my preferences as being all contaminated by ego, I treat them with a sense of humor.

 

Nonetheless, I do feel like the only way for me to learn to follow my path, is by learning to trust my innate sense of direction. Which includes not second-guessing everything.

 

And it includes many acts of intentional misbehavior! Part of my practice includes consciously doing things (that don't hurt others, but) which my inner voices all try to shut down. Learn that those "proper" voices are just another part of the illusion. For example:

 

 

Lately, as I try to explain things, I can't find the words for them anymore. I think it's needless to talk about something that can't be described adequately and Te is one of those things. Achieving a state where Te becomes a natural way of living, isn't something you can be told to do, rather it is something you need to learn to do. Even after you begin to practice Te, it doesn't mean you'll be perfect, or that you'll not make any mistakes. You wont become a savior or messiah, because the world doesn't need saving, rather you'll intuitively know how to manage things that used to baffle you. That's the key, when you are doing things you'll see a difference. Others will see a difference. The world will seem to make sense in ways that it used to confuse you. The things that you thought were important wont be important. I think then you must come to a decision, whether you wish to continue to live the way you did or whether you wish to live without concern for yourself. That's what it's about, giving up the self for the many. At least that's what I believe.

 

In that regard it's not about doing whatever you want to do, rather it's about doing what needs to be done. Someone once asked the question, "if a Sage saw a baby floating down the river in a basket, would he jump in the water to save him?" The debate seemed to waver between those who felt the Sage shouldn't be attached to others, so he would most likely not do it, and those that felt the Sage was upright and good, so he would do it, but what I understand now is that the Sage jumps in the water, not to save the baby, but to save himself. He sees that baby and he sees himself. He understands on an intuitive level that doing good for someone else is doing good for himself, not because of Karma or Dharma, or any specific reason that might exist, other than the reason that he can see himself in that baby and there is no place in his heart for suffering that he might prevent.

 

The Sage doesn't know the future, only that there is Te, and in practicing Tao Te arises naturally, spontaneously. He does not do things because he wants to feel good, but rather because they need to be done. Being a Sage is not glamorous or without pain and sorrow, rather it is the unrequited bliss of understanding that one is quite ordinary and that living an ordinary life is all one needs to do.

 

Even after saying all this, I know I haven't said it well enough, but I also know that the brief glimpse that I've had of Te and Tao has changed the way I see the world and the way I behave within the world. I know that on a deeper level that those moments where everything seems to vanish, is when everything seems to be there. We are nothing and everything, yet we don't even know it. Anyways, I was confused about this for years and it wasn't until recently that it started to make sense to me on a level that it never has before. Once I stopped seeking the truth, I understood the truth. I know that if I continue to practice Tao that Te will arise and that it does arise now and then, of it's own accord, more and more each day. That's the beautiful thing about it, it happens on it's own, without my need to push it or force it, it just is when I let it be.

 

Aaron

[strawdog65]

Dawg - I just voted you the Person I'd Like to Most Sit Down and Smoke a Joint With.

 

 

Lets smoke that virtual joint right now.

 

I enjoy your thought process as well.

 

Peace!

[manitou]

Aaron - what a beautiful and thoughtful post.

 

I too agree that the more sagelike we seem to become, as a result of our studies, our thoughts, our actions, that life just gets easier. We seem to develop a vision that cuts through the dross and goes right to the heart of the matter. And I don't believe there's a 'good' or 'bad' to any of it - hopefully we've transcended those concepts. The good is inherent in the bad, the bad is inherent in the good. Oh well. My husband and I were talking last night that we almost feel like a 'host' for something else, an intelligence that dwells within and will have its own way. I'm learning that all I need to do is set my intent on something for it to manifest; it usually doesn't manifest in the way I've supposed it would - but it does manifest. When our own personal pecadillos get out of the way, the intelligence is free to manifest without restriction.

 

One day I was walking my small dog down the bike path in Ojai, California. It was dusk. Two teenage boys were heading toward me, I immediately sensed that there was going to be trouble. I'm an old lady. I don't need trouble from two teenage boys. Sure enough, as they got close to me they screamed and lunged at me and my dog. I don't know what happened, but suddenly my little 20-year old dog turned into Cujo. At that moment, I felt something standing behind me - someone very tall, I sensed a tall warrior. The boys looked up at me like they'd seen a ghost and ran about 30 feet down the trail. Then they turned to look at me, still shaking, and one hollered "Did you see her EYES???"

 

I don't know what the heck my eyes did, but the eyes can do some pretty strange things in extraordinary circumstances.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that at some point it ceases being an intellectual exercise. It physically inhabits us in some way and we start becoming, start being the Sage. Or the warrior. In this particular case, it met equal force with equal force, and no one was hurt. It is always kind and uses the least amount of force required.

 

Of course the Sage would walk in and pick up the baby. He is all about love, it's one of his Treasures. He wouldn't cogitate the action.

 

Aaron, you've done a lot of internal work on personality, haven't you? It shows.

[strawdog65]

Lately, as I try to explain things, I can't find the words for them anymore. I think it's needless to talk about something that can't be described adequately and Te is one of those things. Achieving a state where Te becomes a natural way of living, isn't something you can be told to do, rather it is something you need to learn to do. Even after you begin to practice Te, it doesn't mean you'll be perfect, or that you'll not make any mistakes. You wont become a savior or messiah, because the world doesn't need saving, rather you'll intuitively know how to manage things that used to baffle you. That's the key, when you are doing things you'll see a difference. Others will see a difference. The world will seem to make sense in ways that it used to confuse you. The things that you thought were important wont be important. I think then you must come to a decision, whether you wish to continue to live the way you did or whether you wish to live without concern for yourself. That's what it's about, giving up the self for the many. At least that's what I believe.

 

In that regard it's not about doing whatever you want to do, rather it's about doing what needs to be done. Someone once asked the question, "if a Sage saw a baby floating down the river in a basket, would he jump in the water to save him?" The debate seemed to waver between those who felt the Sage shouldn't be attached to others, so he would most likely not do it, and those that felt the Sage was upright and good, so he would do it, but what I understand now is that the Sage jumps in the water, not to save the baby, but to save himself. He sees that baby and he sees himself. He understands on an intuitive level that doing good for someone else is doing good for himself, not because of Karma or Dharma, or any specific reason that might exist, other than the reason that he can see himself in that baby and there is no place in his heart for suffering that he might prevent.

 

The Sage doesn't know the future, only that there is Te, and in practicing Tao Te arises naturally, spontaneously. He does not do things because he wants to feel good, but rather because they need to be done. Being a Sage is not glamorous or without pain and sorrow, rather it is the unrequited bliss of understanding that one is quite ordinary and that living an ordinary life is all one needs to do.

 

Even after saying all this, I know I haven't said it well enough, but I also know that the brief glimpse that I've had of Te and Tao has changed the way I see the world and the way I behave within the world. I know that on a deeper level that those moments where everything seems to vanish, is when everything seems to be there. We are nothing and everything, yet we don't even know it. Anyways, I was confused about this for years and it wasn't until recently that it started to make sense to me on a level that it never has before. Once I stopped seeking the truth, I understood the truth. I know that if I continue to practice Tao that Te will arise and that it does arise now and then, of it's own accord, more and more each day. That's the beautiful thing about it, it happens on it's own, without my need to push it or force it, it just is when I let it be.

 

Aaron

 

 

Aaron, thanks for such a welcome addition to this train of thought.

I understand what you are saying, your words are sublime in the fact that

they do not "push" and yet the message is very clear. What's naturally innate

and happens when we do not place ourselves first is extraordinary. I like and agree that

when we just do what needs to be done without filtering the actions by our own

desire for a certain thing to occur, thats when the real magical experience begins.

 

It's because of things like you have said, that I am firmly rooted in using this belief

we maintain to have, called Taoism, in the real everyday world. We have real ability

to change our lives by our actions when we meld our mind with the awareness of

everything and person is an extension of ourselves. I am having to be mindful of how

I treat people. I know when I am acting in a way that is not of any service to myself

or others, it is the change that takes place within me when I use this awareness,

that will become the innate actions of my future self.

 

Thanks again Aaron, I value what you have to share.

 

 

Peace!

[Aaron]

Hello Manitou and Strawdog,

 

Thank you for your kind replies. I think I did a lot of introspection and with that introspection I learned a great deal about myself. The thing is, introspection helps you on one level, but there is something deeper that must be done for a change to occur (in my opinion). Examining yourself in an honest way, understanding how your actions can effect the world around you, is a truly liberating experience. You begin to see things on a different level, you see the way you are connected, even when you believe you're not. Your actions take on a whole new meaning.

 

I was going to make this longer than it needs to be, to talk about returning to innocence, of giving up "right" and "wrong" and abiding by love and compassion, but it doesn't need to be said. I hope each of you are doing well and that life treats you well.

 

Aaron

Edited December 26, 2010 by Twinner

[Otis]

I know that if I continue to practice Tao that Te will arise and that it does arise now and then, of it's own accord, more and more each day. That's the beautiful thing about it, it happens on it's own, without my need to push it or force it, it just is when I let it be.

Well said, Aaron. I'm in total agreement.

 

I often think of caring and courage as the twin Taoist virtues. Courage without caring, and I create all kinds of karma, by running roughshod over the world. Caring without courage, and I lack the means to follow the authentic path.

 

Much of my early practice has been about surrendering my censors and other internal inhibitors, all of the habitual no's which act as continual brakes. My courage, I believe, needed to come first, in order to be able to step forward and choose a path of mystery.

 

But because letting go of censors also creates the potential for lots of karma, then the action of stepping forward constantly reminds me of the need to be aware, and to care about the world and its inhabitants. At the same time, I learn that my happiness increases, the more I see others as beautiful, and the more I value their happiness.

 

So yes, I do what I am drawn toward, but within the context of seeing life as the beloved.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Otis

[manitou]

....'seeing life as the beloved'.

 

 

What else can possibly be said?