I Ching translations

[Mal]

If you mean Huang, yes I feel it reads like an native English speaker with a vast background in Chinese culture and history. The amazon preview for Huang lets you read Qian and will give you an idea of his writing style.

 

And you can contrast that with the preview of the Eranos translation, unfortunately that preview only gives the 1st page of Qian, but you can see the fields of meaning. Every single Chinese character gets a field of meaning. Extremely useful IMHO.

 

Compared to most languages English is back the front

[Apech]

Perhaps in a more PC way, there can be a lot of cultural norms and concepts that people native to that culture intrinsically understand that act as a barrier/handicap to those foreign to that culture. Once you are aware of that it is something you can learn to overcome.

 

Hence why many of us like the Eranos translation for giving as close as possible a one-to-one translation of Chinese to English. I like Huang in conjunction with that translation because his background is traditional Chinese taoist. Therefor his translation helps me to see the I Ching through that lens as my cultural background is different.

 

I nearly bought the Eranos but I read a review posted above which was quite critical of its approach. Having done (or helped with) some translations myself (not Chinese ) I know it is a classic translation error to focus in on each word. There is a tendency to think that this gives more accuracy but language doesn't work like that. Sure each word has its own significance but the meaning comes from the inter-relationship and context for the words plus there is idiom, metaphor, irony, reverse negatives ...the nuance is endless.

 

I had a look at Huang which I liked the look of but I didn't buy because I couldn't remember what you guys had said. But it sounds like you like it Mal and maybe that's a good choice. Mind you I still like Wilhelm.

 

Kate,

 

I have taught English to asylum seekers and migrants into the UK and they say they find it a very hard language to pick up - mostly because of the idiosyncratic spelling (even more in British English). But the big thing about English is its flexibility. You can murder it and it still makes sense ... the verb structures are very simple and the neutral nouns means you don't have to remember what is male or female like in Spanish or French ... indeed because it is such an amalgam of Latin + Germanic languages it has a rich vocabulary which its adds to all the time by loan words from everywhere. Essentially it has grown up this way because the British were so based on international trade and have never been precious about the mother tongue.

 

A.

Edited February 26, 2010 by apepch7

[Pietro]

I nearly bought the Eranos but I read a review posted above which was quite critical of its approach. Having done (or helped with) some translations myself (not Chinese ) I know it is a classic translation error to focus in on each word. There is a tendency to think that this gives more accuracy but language doesn't work like that. Sure each word has its own significance but the meaning comes from the inter-relationship and context for the words plus there is idiom, metaphor, irony, reverse negatives ...the nuance is endless.

...

 

 

The Eranos is really good.

It's true that you should not focus on a single word, but no one over here is suggesting to start with the Eranos and use only that. Somehow most of us use it as a side tool. You have your favorite translation, and then expand it understanding the alternative translations of the words.

 

And then there are some of us who have read so many different translations that the text has started speaking to them directly. For them the Eranos is really good. But they are on a different relation with the text all together.

 

[Pietro]

Please ignore jK comment, over here.

Most people here are devoting an amazing amount of time, both in terms of hours and years in understanding Taoist philosophy. As such I find the discussions to be extremely good, and the level to be quite high. Surely not ignorant nor dumb.

 

The topic, can people from one culture study the philosophy of another culture is an interesting topic in itself, but should have its own thread.

 

From my point of view, I see this as an expression of hexagram 11 and 12, heaven under the earth, and heaven above the earth. When people study each other philosophy we experience union, when people just look at their own garden we experience separation.

[Mal]

Yes. It's a real shame the amazon preview doesn't give a full view of it treatment of a hexagram as the Eranos is something special. I tried google books but no luck either and I can't scan is as putting it in the photocopier will crack its spine

 

I think there is some controversy over Huang (perhaps, not really sure could be wrong) but can you have too many books?

[Apech]

The Eranos is really good.

It's true that you should not focus on a single word, but no one over here is suggesting to start with the Eranos and use only that. Somehow most of us use it as a side tool. You have your favorite translation, and then expand it understanding the alternative translations of the words.

 

And then there are some of us who have read so many different translations that the text has started speaking to them directly. For them the Eranos is really good. But they are on a different relation with the text all together.

 

 

Ok thanks ... that makes sense ... I can see that would work.

 

Yes. It's a real shame the amazon preview doesn't give a full view of it treatment of a hexagram as the Eranos is something special. I tried google books but no luck either and I can't scan is as putting it in the photocopier will crack its spine

 

I think there is some controversy over Huang (perhaps, not really sure could be wrong) but can you have too many books?

 

Don't crack the spine! I suppose the search for a totally authoritative English version is in vain ... I really like the text given on here I Ching on line , (its not Wilhelm although that is available) it always seems spot on ... although I realise its a bit of a cheat not getting the coins or straws out .

 

BTW what happened to Stigs thread on the basis of the I Ching I was enjoying that (because I'm dumb ha ha).

Edited February 26, 2010 by apepch7

[RyanO]

This is a cool thread. I haven't studied/read the I Ching but I definitely plan to!

 

Aleister Crowley's.

 

It's interesting that Crowley was into the I Ching. I wonder how he reconciled this with his western orientation. I'm thinking of the five elements, etc...

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

The extreme of ignorance is to study a philosophy that is originated and developed 1/2 of the way around the world - for the majority of you - and expect it to be within your own levels of experience.

 

Dumb, Dumb, Dumb.

 

 

Hmmm, I guess we have to toss out the Bible now, too.

[soaring crane]

I suppose the search for a totally authoritative English version is in vain ...

 

hmmm... I think you might actually enjoy the RJ Lynn/Wang Bi version I linked to. Take a looksee...

 

 

 

[Pietro]

although I realise its a bit of a cheat not getting the coins or straws out .

I actually don't use the i Ching as a form of divination, at all

[Apech]

hmmm... I think you might actually enjoy the RJ Lynn/Wang Bi version I linked to. Take a looksee...

 

 

 

 

Oh yes thanks that looks good too. I'm going to need a bank loan by the time this finishes!

[Apech]

I actually don't use the i Ching as a form of divination, at all

 

Any reason for that? I find the divination helps me understand the book as muc as anything.

 

A.

[soaring crane]

I remembered something - I'm going to be collecting Milfoil (Yarrow) this year for myself and some other people. It grows very beautifully right around my area. In case anybody wants a stack, let me know.

 

(holy moly - as a suggestion for "Milfoil", the spell check offered up, watch out now - "Milf Oil"! )

 

PS - it's also easy to collect yourself, it grows everywhere that's moist, and maybe "homegrown" is better for I Ching purposes. But, there's a plant that looks almost identical to it and is even more common. We call it "False Yarrow", it has the same flowers and stems, but the leaves aren't nearly as frilly, they're broader... Just a tip.

 

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarrow

Edited February 26, 2010 by soaring crane

[Taomeow]

This is a cool thread. I haven't studied/read the I Ching but I definitely plan to!

 

 

 

It's interesting that Crowley was into the I Ching. I wonder how he reconciled this with his western orientation. I'm thinking of the five elements, etc...

 

He 'married' it to Kabbalah, or rather cross-bred it with the latter. And rightfully so I might add, because the basics of kabbalah are nearly identical to taoist basics. The Tree of Life is a version of the wuxing/bagua superimposed on each other. I am pretty sure that it either originates there or both have the same source of origin. That Crowley "got it" means he had a good eye for sacred geometry, if nothing else.

[RyanO]

He 'married' it to Kabbalah, or rather cross-bred it with the latter. And rightfully so I might add, because the basics of kabbalah are nearly identical to taoist basics. The Tree of Life is a version of the wuxing/bagua superimposed on each other. I am pretty sure that it either originates there or both have the same source of origin. That Crowley "got it" means he had a good eye for sacred geometry, if nothing else.

 

Wow that's cool. I didn't know they were so closely linked, but then again I haven't studied the two in depth.

 

Is it true they have the same origin? I thought the Kabbalah and I Ching, or the Tree of Life and Bagua, developed in distinct, distant regions (Egypt, China?).

 

I've tried to wrap my head around the differences in the Western and Chinese classical elements (Air/Water/Earth/Fire/Spirit vs. Metal/Water/Wood/Fire/Earth), but to no avail. I like the Chinese emphasis on the elements actually being phases, or wuxing, rather than literal elements like they were thought to be in Greece.

 

I've studied a bit of Wicca (which is inspired in part by Crowley's work) and saw some neat parallels with Taoism, the elements not being one of them.

 

I realize this is a whole 'nother topic of which much could be said...

[Apech]

Hi RyanO,

 

There is a thread on the wuxing diagram somewhere where we had a discussion about the origin of the elements in the West and the two systems.

 

All I can say is that I don't think that the Western four element system originated in the Chinese system (the dates are all wrong) but in Egypt which explains why it is different. Systems can be different like this of course and still be 'right' in context.

 

The Tree of Life though, I would agree that there are stunning similarities with the Chinese diagram and by the time Jewish mystical thought was emerging the Silk Route and so on were well established. There is nothing like the Tree of Life in Egypt or as far as I know in Mesopotamia or Persia.

 

A.

[Mal]

I really like the text given on here I Ching on line , (its not Wilhelm although that is available) it always seems spot on ... although I realise its a bit of a cheat not getting the coins or straws out

 

Thanks that one has a nice feel to it and I like the text too. Here are some Virtual Yarrow Sticks

[Apech]

Thanks that one has a nice feel to it and I like the text too. Here are some Virtual Yarrow Sticks

 

Mal,

 

Thanks for this!

 

I followed the link where it says 33 translations and found what I consider the holy grail of the internet i.e. the words 'free' and 'download'.

 

Gregory C. Richter

 

2nd on list for I Ching (there's also Art of War)

 

Sorry if this has already been posted - although its in note form it looks very helpful on the basis of word by word translation.

 

Cheers.

 

A.

[RyanO]

Hi RyanO,

 

There is a thread on the wuxing diagram somewhere where we had a discussion about the origin of the elements in the West and the two systems.

 

All I can say is that I don't think that the Western four element system originated in the Chinese system (the dates are all wrong) but in Egypt which explains why it is different. Systems can be different like this of course and still be 'right' in context.

 

The Tree of Life though, I would agree that there are stunning similarities with the Chinese diagram and by the time Jewish mystical thought was emerging the Silk Route and so on were well established. There is nothing like the Tree of Life in Egypt or as far as I know in Mesopotamia or Persia.

 

A.

 

Neat thanks, that clarifies some things.

[Pietro]

Any reason for that? I find the divination helps me understand the book as muc as anything.

 

A.

 

Have you tried to actually read the book?

I am not being vicious, I am really asking.

 

This is a book that has the 64 situation where you will be in life. And each situation has 6 ways in which it can manifest. I found the best way to use it is to learn each of the situation, very well. So that once you are in life, and you are in a particular situation you can apply the I Ching lesson for that situation. You are having a hard time with someone? apply hexagram 6. Waiting? Use hexagram 5. Want to ask someone to teach you? reread hexagram 4. What's the point of selecting a random one and expecting that to magically mirror the situation.

 

I know people will tell you that the quantum situation of the holographic universe mirrors each other, so that if a donkey farts in the second universe this will have an effect in the way you extract the i ching so that the result is exactly what is should have been,

 

Honestly... I think it's bullshit.

 

Unless you have reached the point which Bruce describes in this video, where you can syncronize with the energy of the universe, the idea that you take a random i-ching hexagram, and that is magically the right situation, is about, hmm, 1 in 64. (and I am being generous not considering the changing lines)

 

This does not take away the exercise (very good) of taking a random hexagram to let you learn different aspects about a situation. This is a very good exercise. And surely every situation has way more than 64 aspects, and 64 point of view. Which is why it is so easy to get into the state (delusional, according to me), that the situation you have extracted really represents the situation. But since most of what happens to us does not matter, we do not notice.

 

I have been in situation where the I Ching really helped me out. I threw the coins, and it would make no sense. Or make a partial sense, but a few days later I was back there, meaning the solution I have found was just an illusion, a delusion. And then I read all of them one time, and one of them was describing something I was really experiencing. I read that. And I reread it. And I really understood it. ANd it made a lot of sense. I applied it and my life changed.

 

Once you start really reading the i-ching, and rereading it. And seeing how hexagrams come in pairs. And how they grow from birth to education, teaching, making a family, and onward. How it represents the life of a man (or a woman). Until you have seen all this, it really does not make much sense to cast the I-Ching. And once you have understood it all. Once you know all the 64 positions. Once you can be in any situation and instantly know: hmm, I am in this situation so I should do that. At that point why would you need to throw the i Ching at all.

 

And if you want to know what Bruce says about the I Ching, he said: "read it 3 times, from top to bottom. Then ask me a question, not before. And if you can't perceive the psychic body do not throw the I Ching. Really. It makes no sense."

 

So I don't throw the I Ching. I study it. And re study it. ANd this is why I really am looking for good translations.

 

Thanks for the question,

I was happy to share all this.

[Apech]

Have you tried to actually read the book?

I am not being vicious, I am really asking.

 

...

 

Thanks for the question,

I was happy to share all this.

 

Thanks for the answer ... and yes I have read it and the Great Treatise (Wilhelm version) and I have always felt that at some time in my life I will immerse myself in this wonderful book ... but I am studying other things at present.

 

I think you are wrong about its oracular nature. This is based on my use of the I Ching in practice, my intuition and the wisdom of 'as above so below' ... as with Chaos Theory the apparent infinite complexity of the universe can be understood in terms of simple mathematical relationships. I cannot explain how the coins or whatever could work ... or the donkey farting ... but I don't think you can limit the possibilities in power /nature.

 

I'd be interested in what others think.

 

Cheers.

 

A.

[Taomeow]

Have you tried to actually read the book?

Yes. Have you tried to actually use it for divination?

 

This is a book that has the 64 situation where you will be in life. And each situation has 6 ways in which it can manifest. I found the best way to use it is to learn each of the situation, very well. So that once you are in life, and you are in a particular situation you can apply the I Ching lesson for that situation. You are having a hard time with someone? apply hexagram 6. Waiting? Use hexagram 5. Want to ask someone to teach you? reread hexagram 4. What's the point of selecting a random one and expecting that to magically mirror the situation.

 

That would work well if you knew at all times what kind of situation you are in. Do you? I use the I Ching precisely when I don't.

 

E.g., I'm shopping around for a used car. I ask the I Ching about a particular car I'm thinking to buy, but she tells me, in one changing line I get, "the wheels of the cart fall off." Sapientis sat. I keep shopping. I ask about another car and she says, in one changing line, "apply the brakes" and in another, "you will lose your belt." I don't buy it. I ask about yet another and she says, "gives help with the strength of an ox, supreme good fortune." I buy it. It's been problem free ever since. This is an example where you can't possibly know what would happen if you ignored the divination, but I've been in situations where it becomes clear in hind sight what the I Ching meant when she pronounced her judgment on a situation. She tells me not to travel on a particular flight, I change the flight. But later find out about the one she told me not to take that it was delayed for eight hours and the passengers were jerked around because it was first delayed for two hours, the passengers boarded, spent another three sitting on the runway, were taken back to the airport, spent another three hours there waiting, and only then departed toward their destination. No biggie, but who needs that when the flight the I Ching tells me to take is right on time?..

 

I think you can benefit greatly from studying it FIRST, using for divination later -- but to NOT use it for divination is to defy its origins, its purpose in life, the intent of its creators, its destiny -- and your own. And for what? To be true to "modern science?" -- doesn't work anymore, since there's areas of modern science that are perfectly in accord with the idea of using the I Ching for divination scientifically, stochastic disciplines that are not bad at all at predicting things -- though I suspect not as good as the original method.

[Apech]

 

 

I think you can benefit greatly from studying it FIRST, using for divination later -- but to NOT use it for divination is to defy its origins, its purpose in life, the intent of its creators, its destiny -- and your own. And for what? To be true to "modern science?" -- doesn't work anymore, since there's areas of modern science that are perfectly in accord with the idea of using the I Ching for divination scientifically, stochastic disciplines that are not bad at all at predicting things -- though I suspect not as good as the original method.

 

Well said.

 

[forestofemptiness]

My view is that Western elements are more like nouns and Chinese elements are more like verbs. This actually makes sense as the West tends to take more of a mechanical view and the Chinese a more organic view.

 

I've tried to wrap my head around the differences in the Western and Chinese classical elements (Air/Water/Earth/Fire/Spirit vs. Metal/Water/Wood/Fire/Earth), but to no avail. I like the Chinese emphasis on the elements actually being phases, or wuxing, rather than literal elements like they were thought to be in Greece.

[forestofemptiness]

I used cars.com with spectacular results. Seems odd to use an ancient book of wisdom to go used car and plane ticket shopping, but likely this is just my cultural prejudices showing.

 

E.g., I'm shopping around for a used car. I ask the I Ching about a particular car I'm thinking to buy, but she tells me, in one changing line I get, "the wheels of the cart fall off." Sapientis sat. I keep shopping. I ask about another car and she says, in one changing line, "apply the brakes" and in another, "you will lose your belt." I don't buy it. I ask about yet another and she says, "gives help with the strength of an ox, supreme good fortune." I buy it. It's been problem free ever since.