Free Will

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

 

Fear, I sense. Of the Truth!

 

 

*facepalm* i couldnt find that emoticon, so astrisks will have to do

 

 

*sigh* heh, im not sure where you're picking up the scent of fear though! Quite sure, i am, that Tzu isnt afraid of any truth at all, but quite brave to experience it first hand!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Conditioned by your unconscious tendencies of non-conceptual interpretation...

WTF? What does that mean.. do you simply have some unconscious need to apply your disturbed version of Buddhism to everything posted..?

 

Hi SS Wolf: The reply wasn't intended to be disrespectful, it's simply my nature to move toward simplicity.. unlike the belief systems that first construct the many-multi-layered 'Onion', then prescribe ritual after mindless ritual to get their unfortunate victims to peel layer after layer of the imaginary Onion that was never there to begin with..

 

In fact, i am delinquent in expressing gratitude for your clear and insightful contributions to the forum.. so, Thanks, Stoner...

 

Be well..

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Greetings..

 

 

WTF? What does that mean.. do you simply have some unconscious need to apply your disturbed version of Buddhism to everything posted..?

 

Hi SS Wolf: The reply wasn't intended to be disrespectful, it's simply my nature to move toward simplicity.. unlike the belief systems that first construct the many-multi-layered 'Onion', then prescribe ritual after mindless ritual to get their unfortunate victims to peel layer after layer of the imaginary Onion that was never there to begin with..

 

In fact, i am delinquent in expressing gratitude for your clear and insightful contributions to the forum.. so, Thanks, Stoner...

 

Be well..

 

 

 

 

Ah ha, i see how it is! Your way with words has a slight "contrary" tendency... that is you mean things that are painted in an almsot opposite way, but upon closer inspection, i can see how subtle use of words changes the contrary intent.

 

It's actually quite hard to follow not knowing that beforehand.

 

But i am always glad to help K.I.S.S. although i dont think the "stupid" part is necessary

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Fear, I sense. Of the Truth!

Isn't anonymity great? "Fear, 'you' sense? i'm sure 'you' do..

 

Life is right here, right now.. all the mind-play and BS theories and psuedo-religious rituals don't hold a candle to the Light of Day, when that day includes one breath of fresh air and freewill..

Inter-dependent doesn't mean One. Here is your misunderstanding.

 

Can you expand on the meaning of "eternal" you?

No, it's not my misunderstanding, 'Lucky'.. it doesn't 'mean' One, it IS One.. you really don't have a clue, do you?

 

Eternal = Forever in ALL directions.. You = that which experiences its own existence in relationship with ALL that IS, including ALL that IS.. and, it chooses its experiences.. really, watch, it's amazing..

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

WTF? What does that mean..

 

 

 

It means that bondage is also non-conceptual and subtler than your still mind states. You take up the non-conceptual as a self, a source and a refuge. I just disagree with this point of view. I'm allowed and I'm allowed to say why I disagree with your assertions. You don't need to be so disturbed and revert to insults.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Eternal = Forever in ALL directions.. You = that which experiences its own existence in relationship with ALL that IS, including ALL that IS.. and, it chooses its experiences.. really, watch, it's amazing..

 

Be well..

 

So, there's something that's eternal and shines from it's own side? I think the universe of your conditioning is merely choosing through the illusion of you and you think this is free will, but it's just a subtle response system identified as a self.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

So, there's something that's eternal and shines from it's own side? I think the universe of your conditioning is merely choosing through the illusion of you and you think this is free will, but it's just a subtle response system identified as a self.

 

Ah, so...

Edited June 23, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

So, there's something that's eternal and shines from it's own side? I think the universe of your conditioning is merely choosing through the illusion of you and you think this is free will, but it's just a subtle response system identified as a self.

That's no 'illusion'.. it is unreasonable to label something as an 'illusion' because you don't understand it, or your 'guru' has told you what to say..

 

The Eternal You, the Source, has no relationship/feedback with which to understand its own existence.. all it can understand is "I AM".. it asks itself in natural curiosity "What AM I"?.. we/us/Life ARE the answer to that first prime natural question, the same prime motivation that we each share, "What AM I"? "AS above, so below"..

 

There is no 'authenticity' in 'illusions and dreams'.. the Source has no need to control or manipulate or intervene, it has no 'agendas', when the question arises 'naturally, 'What AM I'? the Natural response is honest, sincere 'Self-examination', find out the 'Truth'.. As the eternal Source, and in the state of Undifferentiated Wholeness, there is only one way to examine yourself.. Set yourself apart from yourself (some people explain it as the 'big bang').. Engage yourself in interactive, interdependent relationships, and.. to understand "What AM I"? there can be no constraints on freedom of choice, there can be no predetermined result.. its an open-ended process of "Self-exploration", just as we/us/Life explore our existence, we do so as our Eternal Self does, too.. again, "As above, so below"..

 

This is the paradox that has confused mankind forever.. that we/us/Life are BOTH: One Undifferentiated Eternal Self-Aware Entity, AND the Diverse Multiplicity that is the Cosmos at exactly the same time.. it is the 'Sentience' we understand as the 'You' reference, whether it is Whole or Individuated.. Consider the Taiji Symbol (Yin/Yang), and relate it to the 'Process' we experience.. The 'Source-You' individualizes itself so it can experience its own existence, and.. as the Taiji Symbol so simply and elegantly expresses it.. the Individualized-You seeks 'reunion' and re-integration into 'Wholeness'.. a continuum of movement, each flowing into the other, and.. within each, the other is never 'not'..

 

We/us/Life are the Answer to the question: "What AM I"? As Eternal 'You' manifested in physical Individuality, it is precisely your freedom to experience your existence in relationship with 'you' as other Independently Functioning Versions of Source-You, and as the Cosmos at large.. that reveals "What I AM"! It is the interactive, interconnected, interdependent Experiential Relationships that 're-unite' into the Collective Wholeness that Re-Individualizes into we/us/Life to continue this Grand Self-Exploration.. The Taiji Symbol, a brilliant and elegantly simple reference, Existence in a continuum of motion (see my Avatar) of Light defining Dark defining Light defining The Essence of Life, Change.. Within each of the contrasting principles of light and dark in the Taiji Symbol, is an island of its contrasting principle.. a 'clue', the 'stillness' at the center of movement..

 

Be well..

[Lucky7Strikes]

*facepalm* i couldnt find that emoticon, so astrisks will have to do

 

 

*sigh* heh, im not sure where you're picking up the scent of fear though! Quite sure, i am, that Tzu isnt afraid of any truth at all, but quite brave to experience it first hand!

Don't you see how he's very disturbed?

 

 

I didn't mean it so literally anyway.

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

 

That's no 'illusion'.. it is unreasonable to label something as an 'illusion' because you don't understand it, or your 'guru' has told you what to say..

 

This is not the case Li. I do have direct experience of my own illusion of self. I exist relatively and not ultimately... so I am like an illusion, not an illusion exactly as that would be too extreme. But, I am only because of the coagulation of components.

 

The Eternal You, the Source, has no relationship/feedback with which to understand its own existence.. all it can understand is "I AM".. it asks itself in natural curiosity "What AM I"?.. we/us/Life ARE the answer to that first prime natural question, the same prime motivation that we each share, "What AM I"? "AS above, so below"..

 

How are you existing right now? What are the components of your experience and what are the causes of them? How do you relate existence to the fact that you are merely components enacting a consciousness?

 

What do you think will happen to you after your body dies?

 

There is no 'authenticity' in 'illusions and dreams'.. the Source has no need to control or manipulate or intervene, it has no 'agendas', when the question arises 'naturally, 'What AM I'? the Natural response is honest, sincere 'Self-examination', find out the 'Truth'.. As the eternal Source, and in the state of Undifferentiated Wholeness, there is only one way to examine yourself.. Set yourself apart from yourself (some people explain it as the 'big bang')..

 

The big bang only happens due to causes and conditions left over from the previous universe. It is not a source of the cosmos. Go deep enough and you can even see past lives that pre-exist this universe. I have, this is not a hallucination.

 

Engage yourself in interactive, interdependent relationships, and.. to understand "What AM I"? there can be no constraints on freedom of choice, there can be no predetermined result.. its an open-ended process of "Self-exploration", just as we/us/Life explore our existence, we do so as our Eternal Self does, too.. again, "As above, so below"..

 

Your idea to even search for yourself is influenced by conditions outside of your individuality. What eternal self, it's every changing, ever evolving or devolving, there is no moment that is static to call a self that is Eternal and unchanging.

 

This is the paradox that has confused mankind forever.. that we/us/Life are BOTH: One Undifferentiated Eternal Self-Aware Entity, AND the Diverse Multiplicity that is the Cosmos at exactly the same time.. it is the 'Sentience' we understand as the 'You' reference, whether it is Whole or Individuated.. Consider the Taiji Symbol (Yin/Yang), and relate it to the 'Process' we experience.. The 'Source-You' individualizes itself so it can experience its own existence, and.. as the Taiji Symbol so simply and elegantly expresses it.. the Individualized-You seeks 'reunion' and re-integration into 'Wholeness'.. a continuum of movement, each flowing into the other, and.. within each, the other is never 'not'..

 

I used to think like this as a Hindu. The one becomes the many to experience itself. It's a nice thought, and leads to great states of joy and seeming spontaneity, but the conditioning goes deeper. Your choices are still being manipulated by history. As long as you identify with your experience of that soft non-conceptual light as a Self, then when your modality karma extinguishes, it will extinguish into this seed of identification tapped in the space like void and you will remain in a formless realm for a long time without motion until conditions arise that big bang you out into another existence and you will not remember from where you came and your cyclical process will start all over again. You can experience this truth in meditation.

 

Your belief suggests a primal cause, so then your current situation is entirely under the will of this primal cause because you are merely an effect of it, thus you have no free will as you are merely a puppet of this primal cause that birthed you and you have no information outside of this primal cause because it is everything. This is not like your mother who births you but your influence comes from outside of her. That one that caused the big bang is the only will, thus there is only pre-determinism.

 

We/us/Life are the Answer to the question: "What AM I"? As Eternal 'You' manifested in physical Individuality, it is precisely your freedom to experience your existence in relationship with 'you' as other Independently Functioning Versions of Source-You, and as the Cosmos at large.. that reveals "What I AM"!

 

According to your philosophy, there is no separate individuality as there is only the source to you. You have not realized the trap that your interpretation of experience creates for you.

 

It is the interactive, interconnected, interdependent Experiential Relationships that 're-unite' into the Collective Wholeness that Re-Individualizes into we/us/Life to continue this Grand Self-Exploration.. The Taiji Symbol, a brilliant and elegantly simple reference, Existence in a continuum of motion (see my Avatar) of Light defining Dark defining Light defining The Essence of Life, Change.. Within each of the contrasting principles of light and dark in the Taiji Symbol, is an island of its contrasting principle.. a 'clue', the 'stillness' at the center of movement..

 

Be well..

 

Yes, it is a nice symbol though I don't agree with this idea of a sourceless source or an uncaused cause. This sounds like the path of expression, re-absorption, then re-expression, sounds like Samsara to me.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Another thread is taken over by the Buddhists! I thought this thread was about free will. Not, Daddy Buddha says so.

 

ralis

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

So, there's something that's eternal and shines from it's own side? I think the universe of your conditioning is merely choosing through the illusion of you and you think this is free will, but it's just a subtle response system identified as a self.

 

 

If when you are finally done, and THERE, facing your true self, and you deny your own self, both you and your self cease, while the rest of our selves move on.

 

While in the very same breath, "you" are still "there", changing and becoming a new self and beginning a new stage of the cycle.

 

 

Everything that is, has always ever been, and will always ever be.

 

The buddha has come, taught, experienced, and gone, but the buddha has come, taught, experienced, and gone before and the buddha will come, teach, experience, and go again.

 

Nothing that is, ever was not, because it doesnt exist in the first place.

 

Intellectualizing it is meaningless, embracing it is unproductive. thus we are engaged in immortal combat with eternity.

[Vajrahridaya]

If when you are finally done, and THERE, facing your true self, and you deny your own self, both you and your self cease, while the rest of our selves move on.

 

While in the very same breath, "you" are still "there", changing and becoming a new self and beginning a new stage of the cycle.

 

 

Everything that is, has always ever been, and will always ever be.

 

The buddha has come, taught, experienced, and gone, but the buddha has come, taught, experienced, and gone before and the buddha will come, teach, experience, and go again.

 

Nothing that is, ever was not, because it doesnt exist in the first place.

 

Intellectualizing it is meaningless, embracing it is unproductive. thus we are engaged in immortal combat with eternity.

 

Nah... Samsara is Nirvana. When rightly viewed.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[C T]

 

While in the very same breath, "you" are still "there", changing and becoming a new self and beginning a new stage of the cycle.

 

Everything that is, has always ever been, and will always ever be.

 

Intellectualizing it is meaningless, embracing it is unproductive.

Is it just me, or is there some contradiction in this observation? How did you come upon this view, if not through the process of intellectualization?

 

Embracing logical, concrete philosophical deductions can be very productive, to a large extent. It often puts an end to doubt-filled ambiguity (the phrase, "Everything that is, has always ever been, and will always ever be", is an example of ambiguity - no rudeness intended, btw). This can be called 'Having the right means'.

 

They only become hindrances when it makes one form the idea, and cling on that idea, that one has 'arrived' somewhere, which brings pride to birth. This occurs when one does not possess 'Correct View'.

 

Then they are no longer of benefit - instead they have been made into stumbling blocks on the way.

 

So the saying goes, "The right means in the wrong hands turn out to be wrong means after all."

Edited June 23, 2010 by CowTao

[Marblehead]

But i am always glad to help K.I.S.S. although i dont think the "stupid" part is necessary

 

Yes, someone brought that to my attention a few years ago. I accepted their recommendation to replace the word 'stupid' with the word 'sweetie'. Sounds so much better.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

So, there's something that's eternal and shines from it's own side? I think the universe of your conditioning is merely choosing through the illusion of you and you think this is free will, but it's just a subtle response system identified as a self.

 

Pure energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It is eternal. Its manifestations change. (And yes, the changes are interdependant [cause and effect].) That is a given. But it has always and will always exist eternally in and of itself.

 

And this is why many Taoists wish to find the way to merge themselves with this pure (first) energy - the energy of Tao.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Another thread is taken over by the Buddhists! I thought this thread was about free will. Not, Daddy Buddha says so.

 

ralis

 

No, it has not been taken over by the Buddhists. I am responding only when a response seems appropriate.

 

I still have my free will and therefore respond only when "I" want to - it is not dependant on any other energy or source save my "Free Will".

 

But even my free will is part of the energy of Tao. That's the way it was meant to be. (That doesn't sound proper because it is suggesting a meaning where there really is no meaning.)

 

I also have my free will to misunderstand others when I choose to do so. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Embracing logical, concrete philosophical deductions can be very productive, to a large extent. It often puts an end to doubt-filled ambiguity (the phrase, "Everything that is, has always ever been, and will always ever be", is an example of ambiguity - no rudeness intended, btw). This can be called 'Having the right means'.

 

Actually, I have said something similar to this (the quote) many times before. My version is:

 

"Everything this is, always hass been, and always will be, it (everything) just takes different forms over time."

 

Everything refers to the totality of all energy of the universe and any potential multiverses.

 

Time refers to space/time. When Tao is at Singularity there is no space/time.

 

Yes, I agree, if we start out wrong we can't really expect to end up right. If we negate the oneness of the individual we negate the possibility of free will. Therefore if we accept that things do not exist in and of themselves we will never be able to accept the fact that we have free will.

 

Things change over time. Even our free will changes depending on external conditions. But we still have the free will to think whatever we wish to think. We will always have this as long as our brain is functioning. When we become brain-dead we no longer have free will. Now, it is true, we can still be alive but also brain-dead.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Pure energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It is eternal. Its manifestations change. (And yes, the changes are interdependant [cause and effect].) That is a given. But it has always and will always exist eternally in and of itself.

 

And this is why many Taoists wish to find the way to merge themselves with this pure (first) energy - the energy of Tao.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Yes, this would be considered the path of re-absorption, a brahma path, but your goal is not liberation from Samsara, as we've already discussed. It's true that this experience is there, but this handling of the experience is not in congruency with Buddhahood, as in making it home and identifying with it.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Nah... Samsara is Nirvana. When rightly viewed.

 

 

There is no final destination.

 

Only eternal and infinite continuity.

 

Break one set of cycles to enter into a new set.

 

Nirvana to us is mundane to buddha, is "purgatory" to the next "level" up from there.... and it just goes ever on. We have contrasts not absolutes.

 

Absolutes only exist as extreme contrasts.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Stoner Shadow Wolf

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Is it just me, or is there some contradiction in this observation? How did you come upon this view, if not through the process of intellectualization?

 

Embracing logical, concrete philosophical deductions can be very productive, to a large extent. It often puts an end to doubt-filled ambiguity (the phrase, "Everything that is, has always ever been, and will always ever be", is an example of ambiguity - no rudeness intended, btw). This can be called 'Having the right means'.

 

They only become hindrances when it makes one form the idea, and cling on that idea, that one has 'arrived' somewhere, which brings pride to birth. This occurs when one does not possess 'Correct View'.

 

Then they are no longer of benefit - instead they have been made into stumbling blocks on the way.

 

So the saying goes, "The right means in the wrong hands turn out to be wrong means after all."

 

 

 

The intellect challenges the intuition.

Embracing negates observing.

 

So why not observe my statement with intuition?

[Vajrahridaya]

The intellect challenges the intuition.

Embracing negates observing.

 

So why not observe my statement with intuition?

 

Intuition and intellect should serve each other. What people call intuition is generally conditioned by the subconscious. It takes a clear and meditative intellect to unravel these blockages or subtle identities.

[Vajrahridaya]

There is no final destination.

 

Only eternal and infinite continuity.

 

That's right, and if rightly cognized, it's internally experienced as Nirvana.

 

Break one set of cycles to enter into a new set.

 

Samsara is not phenomena, it's how one experiences phenomena, as phenomena will endlessly manifest due to the fact that it always has.

 

Nirvana to us is mundane to buddha, is "purgatory" to the next "level" up from there.... and it just goes ever on. We have contrasts not absolutes.

 

I agree, it's all relative. But, Buddhahood is indeed full awakening to this relativity. One could say, it's absolutely pristine cognition of the relativity of phenomena while being free from this phenomena of pristine cognition.

 

Absolutes only exist as extreme contrasts.

 

Relatively.

[Marblehead]

Yes, this would be considered the path of re-absorption, a brahma path, but your goal is not liberation from Samsara, as we've already discussed. It's true that this experience is there, but this handling of the experience is not in congruency with Buddhahood, as in making it home and identifying with it.

 

Yes, I know. I guess it is good that I am not a buddhist then, Huh?

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, I know. I guess it is good that I am not a buddhist then, Huh?

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

 

But, you generally take my difference in path with a light heart, since we've already worked all that heaviness out it seems last year. Maybe not all, but plenty.