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About Nathan

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    Li Jian

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  1. Daoist associations?

    This is akin to gas-lighting when someone calls you a name, you defend yourself or others, and then the original name-caller says that you're the one that started it and YOU should behave better! lol I have enough of this nonsense at home with my wife.
  2. Daoist associations?

    Virtue, 1. This is why I don't come on this forum often. Perhaps it isn't your intention virtue, but your tone is very condescending. In order to have a fruitful conversation, some basic ground rules apply (as we're adults). #1. Name-calling, such as Walker did towards my Shifu and Bright-Heart, are non-sequitur. I can't have a conversation with someone that isn't interested in really having one, only in playing "gotcha!" 2. I already did answer your question, but here it is again: "They are no longer here. They never taught nor ordained Westerners and Americans. They didn't have to deal with the PRC. They don't much have a say anymore. Regardless, it seems that the requirement for celibacy is not set-in-stone within Quanzhen or Longmen."
  3. Daoist associations?

    I would be very happy to do so, but cannot when logical fallacies are being used by the counter-point. Walker's name-calling and adversarial stance, make having any kind of meaningful and elucidating conversation very unlikely to happen. And this is NOT my fault. To answer your questions: "So what do you figure your Quanzhen lineage founders feeling about her altering the standard of celibacy and relaxing the priestly vows?" They are no longer here. They never taught nor ordained Westerners and Americans. They didn't have to deal with the PRC. They don't much have a say anymore. Regardless, it seems that the requirement for celibacy is not set-in-stone within Quanzhen or Longmen. I'll ask again: "Where is it proscribed for a Longmen Priest to marry?" If you can't find a law, or an edict, saying so, then it isn't so. If bright-Heart says it's Kosher, (And She's the one that decides what's kosher and for whom) then by golly it is to me.
  4. Daoist associations?

    Abbess Bright-Heart seems to not mind all of these lovely, married Longmen Priests and people behind her.
  5. Daoist associations?

    I would have to disagree. Walker is free to have his own opinions, but his name-calling and agenda aren't welcome and do not help.
  6. Daoist associations?

    There's so much misinformation, speculation, and circular-logic in this post that it's going to be hard to respond to, but here goes.... "If only these American "priests" took the time to learn Chinese, study the Daoist Canon, and live in the communities they claim to represent, they might realize that something indispensable is missing from what they have been given. But given that they do not take the time to truly learn about the tradition, perhaps they just don't want to know. " 1. My Shifu Patrick, grew up in a Chinese Monastery, raised by a Chinese man, in San Francisco and was trained in Ch'an and Zheng Yi Dao (I received his father's lineage as well). He reads, writes, and speaks fluent Chinese (of several dialects). He has spent YEARS in China wandering, and training. "This is ironic, because we can see the absolute respect paid to tradition here by Master Fu Yuantian... and this man is one of the main teachers of Zhang Mingxin, the nun who is evidently now telling all these Americans and other westerners that they can be "priests" in the Quanzhen Longmen without being ordained as monks or nuns! It's not just that Zhang Mingxin was his disciple--she even is on record recently quoting him about how important the strictures are and parroting his words to younger generations of Chinese disciples! Evidently somehow this central importance is being omitted for the Americans, who now would like to sell you "priesthood" for several thousand of your dollars and several precious years of your life." 2. No one sold me ordination for thousands of dollars. I underwent a Daoist Seminary for three years, at the culmination of which I was ordained. Yes, the Seminary costs money. If you become a Catholic Priest you have to pay for Seminary School. This is a moot point. people have to eat...... I'm not even going to get into the minutiae of what constitutes Daoshi from Daozhang. It looks like Walker's red-herring and strawman riddled posts have an axe to grind. Walker, are you a Longmen Priest? Why so emotional? Why has this struck a nerve with you? Why the defamation, character assassination, and ad hominem? Here is a response directed towards yourself Walker. Take it as you like it. "If somebody asks you those questions they show their ignorance. There are no Taoist lineage that mandate celibacy and renunciation unless they are specifically focused on that, which ours is not. Zhang Shifu was very clear in our platform statement that we are a non-monastic platform because she understood that when Taoism came to the west it would need to be accessible to western people. Celibacy and renunciation are not western concepts nor are they the point when following the Dao. If you go back to the Tang Dynasty or even the Ming Dynasty you might find that they advocated it, but that was within their cultural context and it fell out of favor. But in Zhengyi The priests always married and had kids, because it’s 100% Dao. Zhang Shifu being the secretary general of the China Taoist Association makes all concessions and rules for all ordained Taoist worldwide. She does not mandate and as the Abbot of this lineage neither do I. People who think you cannot be Quanzhen and married are just bookworms who read too much and know too little about how things really work today"
  7. Daoist associations?

    damdao, That is correct. I was ordained as a Priest, not a Monk (Although Monk was an option and did come with restrictions).
  8. Daoist associations?

    It seems that all questions have been adequately answered. I'm not going to become embroiled in poo-flinging towards my Shifu, and my Great-Shifu. I'll not defend them anymore, as they don't require it. Again, I'm a Daoshi of Four Dragons (Qingcheng Mt. Longmen Houston Branch), and if there are any more questions I'll do my best to answer them privately via message. Thank You.
  9. Daoist associations?

    It has nothing to do with "spiritual penis measuring" and everything to do with competence. Show me any leader that doesn't have detractors? The "glory goes to the man in the arena" in this case a woman. Of course the CDA is flawed, as it's set up to be adversarial by the Chinese Government. If you treasure the Temples and Sects that still remain in China then thank Zhang Shifu, because she stands on the front lines of preserving them.
  10. Daoist associations?

    Abbess Bright-heart is a fantastic woman! In a country where boys are more prized than girls, where women's rights are still being struggled for. Abbess Bright-Heart has risen through the ranks of a man's world to become one of the most "powerful" (read influential) Daoists in China. Yes, she's a Communist. A good Communist, as all Chinese citizens must be. She plays a high-wire balancing act, preserving Daoism, while at the same time making liaison with a Government (whom would like nothing more than to burn every Daoist and Buddhist Temple). Perhaps in your rush-to-judgement you've failed to see how the Longmen may evolve as they move westward, that Daoism (Yes even Longmen) will evolve as it meets Western Culture. I've seen no evidence presented that it is not allowed for a Western Longmen Priest to marry? Certainly the plethora of married Western Longmen Priests would like to know Walker (in your normal eloquent tone of course)?
  11. Daoist associations?

    Hello, Walker. I wasn't purposely ignoring your questions, I just don't really check this site much anymore. I think to answer your first question, perhaps you should ask Zhang-Shifu herself? She isn't all that hard to contact. Given that she's the #2 Daoist in China under the Chinese Daoist Association (About to be #1), as well as being the head Nun of Qingcheng Longmen, I'm certain that she has all of the right reasons, faculties, and authority to make such a proclamation for Western Students. But I'm certain that she will consider your position on the matter in haste, given your exhaustive experience!
  12. Daoist associations?

    That is spot on.
  13. Daoist associations?

    Yes, we are Daoshi (Daoist Priests) in the Longmen Order. Patrick is Bright-heart’s representative because he runs a temple and altar of Qingcheng in Houston. He is also an Abbot of Qingcheng directly under Zhang Shifu. As for the monastic vows, Zhang doesn’t require them of her Western clergy.
  14. Daoist associations?

    Hello, I may have some information which some may find useful in regards to Four Dragons since they've been mentioned. Four Dragons is ran by Lao Shi (Patrick Lovitt). Patrick has been a practicing Daoist ever since he was a small child living in a Monastery in China Town San Francisco, with his adopted father (Whom was a Daoshi and Ch'an Monk). Patrick is an ambassador and was ordained by Abbot Bright Heart (Zhang Shifu), the head Abbess for the Qingcheng Mt. Daoist Association (Longmen), of which Patrick is her representative, and holds a temple for the Association in Houston. I am a Priest that was ordained by Patrick and am a Zhengyi Daoist Priest as well as, a 22nd Generation Longmen Priest. As for charging money for ordination goes, Four dragons doesn't charge for ordination, but it does charge for the Seminary leading to ordination. Let's get something straight right off the bat, you will be charged (IN SOME FASHION), to learn and be ordained as a Daoist priest. You will either have to spend thousands on plane tickets, or spend thousands on a seminary, but you will spend money to become a Daoist Priest. There are no restrictions against charging money. If you go to China and live in a Monastery in order to be trained, thinking that you'll spend no money, you'll still pay. You'll pay by working, doing dishes, sweeping, taking care of the grounds etc. teachers have to eat, and live too, unless you find one that is a breatharian, and lives in a cloud cave on top of Mt. Kailash. Shifu's, Masters, and Teachers eat, sleep, and live just like the rest of us. In fact, Patrick is no longer taking distance students. So, if you want to learn from Four Dragons you'll have to be physically present now in Houston. Patrick (Lao) is most certainly not mercenary in his motives, just trying to spread the Dao and keep food in his kid's mouths like any of us. I will say this, Patrick is the real deal, and walks the walk. The initial seminary and ordination are three years, but the entire process takes 9 years, and Patrick is there the entire way. After the Seminary there are no fees for the next 6 years. If there are any other questions or comments, I'd be happy to answer them.
  15. It’s a good book but one, like mentioned above best studied with a teacher. It is studied in my Daoist lineage (Longmen). It does not contain the complete Bi Fa, which is taught Master to student still. If one wants to practice Internal Alchemy, The Secret of the Golden Flower is a much more direct method (Though you can’t learn that either from Wilhelm or even Cleary / Books) it is again passed down orally.