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[HHC Study] Hua Hu Ching Chapter 1


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#17 Aaron

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:45 PM

I like this first chapter, because it speaks volumes about the concepts of compassion and frugality. I think it's interesting that the author makes a point of saying that the concepts being taught will be lost if they are turned into a religion or science. I also think it's important to note that he says, "entire truth of the universe" rather than "entire truth in the universe". Certainly something to remember. The comments about taking joy in your daily life seems absent in most Taoist teachings, so it was kind of refreshing to see it here. Keep in mind, I think the master spoken of here isn't a "guru", but the actual master who ruled the province, which is important, because, if that's true, that denotes that this text isn't intended for the ruling elite, so much as the commoner. Anyways that's my two cents.

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edit- The master is something that really deserves more investigation. Depending on what type of master it is, denotes what kind of instruction we're receiving.

Edited by Aaron, 05 January 2013 - 09:30 AM.

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#18 Mal

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:03 PM

I like the "pre requisits". The importance of taking joy from what you are doing, from being of service. When you have done that look after your body. Able to do that as well? Got some time left? O.K. turn to the "master" for "instruction"

Who or what is the master? We have all walked a path to get to where we are now in our lifes. Most of us are/were searching, who (or where) do we turn to for help? Outside we have parents, friends, teachers, roll models. There is nature, the world itself. Inside we have ourself,

We look to the experienced to guide our way, or we use our own experiences and observations to guide us.
KAP

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You are not what you think you are. But what you think... you are.
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#19 dawei

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:45 PM

Hua Hu Ching
Chapter One

I reach the Integral Way of uniting with the great and mysterious Tao. My teachings are simple; if you try to make a religion or science of them, they will elude you. Profound yet plain, they contain the entire truth of the universe. Those who wish to know the whole truth take joy in doing the work and service that comes to them. Having completed it, they take joy in cleansing and feeding themselves. Having cared for others and for themselves, they then turn to the master for instruction. This simple path leads to peace, virtue, and abundance.


For a comparison, here is Ni's first chapter... I probably won't type further chapters but this is quite short and easy enough to show the flavor of his writing as a comparison:

There once was a great white-bearded master who appeared at the boundary of the Central Territory on his journey west. Followers came from everywhere to sit at hsi feet for he was a model of universal harmony.

His teaching was simple, yet profound. His instruction was neither ordinary religion nor worldly wisdom, yet it revealed the truth of every aspect of the universe. All of his friends and followers lived virtuously and performed whatever work came to them joyfully. They maintained a peaceful, righteous way of life and enjoyed the abundance of their being. After their daily work was completed, they cleansed themselves carefully and fed themselves properly. Then they went to the garden where the old master stayed and awaited his precious instruction.


The line that I like, and which Mal mentioned in Walker's version is:

Walker: Those who wish to know the whole truth take joy in doing the work and service that comes to them.

Ni: All of his friends and followers lived virtuously and performed whatever work came to them joyfully

To me, Ni does not have the condition of "if..." and it has a more, natural, Zen flavor to it.

#20 Aaron

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:46 PM

For a comparison, here is Ni's first chapter... I probably won't type further chapters but this is quite short and easy enough to show the flavor of his writing as a comparison:



The line that I like, and which Mal mentioned in Walker's version is:

Walker: Those who wish to know the whole truth take joy in doing the work and service that comes to them.

Ni: All of his friends and followers lived virtuously and performed whatever work came to them joyfully

To me, Ni does not have the condition of "if..." and it has a more, natural, Zen flavor to it.


Well it's nice to see that both are quite similar, just a few variations in the translations. Ni's sounds more like a autobiography, sort of like the book of John, whereas Walker's seems more like Psalms. Is that how you would view it?

Aaron

edit- In Ni's case the master would most likely have been Lao Tzu himself... that is interesting indeed.

Edited by Aaron, 04 January 2013 - 07:48 PM.

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#21 Aaron

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:50 PM

I like the "pre requisits". The importance of taking joy from what you are doing, from being of service. When you have done that look after your body. Able to do that as well? Got some time left? O.K. turn to the "master" for "instruction"

Who or what is the master? We have all walked a path to get to where we are now in our lifes. Most of us are/were searching, who (or where) do we turn to for help? Outside we have parents, friends, teachers, roll models. There is nature, the world itself. Inside we have ourself,

We look to the experienced to guide our way, or we use our own experiences and observations to guide us.


Good points. I think if we're to accept that the Master is Lao Tzu (from Ni's translation and the fact that one could even see Walker's as pointing to Lao Tzu,) then where do we go from there? Do we accept the words of Lao Tzu as our master or search for Taoist a master to teach us? Even then how do we know if he's teaching us Lao Tzu's teachings or his own? This is where reading ahead comes in handy, because this is addressed later on, but I don't want to be a spoiler, so I'll leave it at that.

Edited by Aaron, 05 January 2013 - 08:54 AM.

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#22 spiraltao

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:00 AM

I am anxiously awaiting to get to that part. ^^^^^
Absorb what is useful/Reject What is USELESS


Do good things for people and be humble.

"If you pray, do not pray for wealth, health or other bullshits, pray for luckys!"-Dr-Ng

#23 manitou

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:58 AM

Good points. I think if we're to accept that the Master is Lao Tzu (from Ni's translation and the fact that one could even see Walker's as pointing to Lao Tzu,) then where do we go from there? Do we accept the words of Lao Tzu as our master or search for Taoist master to teach us? Even then how do we know if he's teaching us Lao Tzu's teachings or his own? This is where reading ahead comes in handy, because this addressed later on, but I don't want to be a spoiler, so I'll leave it at that.


I don't think it matters that much, actually. If the words of anyone are the true Tao, they will resonate.

Joy is the Dao.

 

               -The mysterious dancer in the black cowboy hat-

 

                                       


#24 Mal

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:27 AM

I'm not sure it matters if the master was "the old master" (aside from the book telling us that we are reading his words) any "master" would do.

I don't want to exclude/devalue being self taught or looking within yourself for answers (as inside is often the correct place to look) but I can't escape the fact that I feel I've progressed most when under the guidance of a teacher.

p.s. I love how this new site notifies you of new posts while you are writing :)
KAP

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You are not what you think you are. But what you think... you are.
"Don't think.....feel" Bruce Lee | "Feel.....don't think" Qui-Gon Jinn

#25 Aaron

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:56 AM

I'm not sure it matters if the master was "the old master" (aside from the book telling us that we are reading his words) any "master" would do.

I don't want to exclude/devalue being self taught or looking within yourself for answers (as inside is often the correct place to look) but I can't escape the fact that I feel I've progressed most when under the guidance of a teacher.

p.s. I love how this new site notifies you of new posts while you are writing :)


I agree. (On the side, I don't think Taoism teaches you not to have a teacher, but rather not to blindly follow others.)

Aaron
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#26 deci belle

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:06 PM

Taoism says… See essence on your own then seek a teacher.

I'm so glad you figured out you didn't need to ask anyone permission to go ahead and just do your project, dear.❤

#27 dawei

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:58 PM

Well it's nice to see that both are quite similar, just a few variations in the translations. Ni's sounds more like a autobiography, sort of like the book of John, whereas Walker's seems more like Psalms. Is that how you would view it?

I like how Ni's is more like a story. As Mal said [somewhere], sounds a little more like Liao's Nine Nights (The DDJ told in a story).

Here is what one reviewer at Amazon said:

There's another "translation" by Brian Walker that changes the genre, eliminates more than half of the text, and makes it look like "Tao Te Ching Part II." I have no idea why Walker thought this was OK. Hua-Ching Ni, who translated this version, writes wonderfully clear and direct English and is also heir to a long tradition of Taoist teachers. You can tell how well he understands this material because he makes it clear, rather than "wonderfully mystical and magical" which I think was Walker's goal. These New Age people want it all to be mystifying and foggy. Ni's translation of the Tao Te Ching is also the best I've come across.



This is not meant to be a criticism... I know that is in the other thread :)

I am happy to discuss Walker's version and mention some stuff from Ni's where I can. I think truth can come in many forms, many translators, many places we may not expect.

Edited by dawei, 05 January 2013 - 05:28 PM.


#28 manitou

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:21 PM

It's like it says somewhere in the TTC - the good man becomes the teacher for the bad(?); the bad man becomes the teacher for the good. Or words to that effect.

I think Life is the Master itself. Each and every day, every situation. Are we acting or reacting? Could it be said more kindly? Are we refraining from judgment, knowing that each and every person we meet is the other half of us? Are we taking things personally, or dwelling in self pity or victimization? Are we harboring hatred or resentment? Are we keeping score on anyone or in a relationship?

There's a million ways we can sabotage all the good training and reading. It's by tracking our own selves that we gain the 3 dimensionality that we're seeking. We tap into a type of cosmic alignment and it promotes our cosmic vision.
  • Silent Answers said thanks for this

Joy is the Dao.

 

               -The mysterious dancer in the black cowboy hat-

 

                                       


#29 Mal

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:40 PM

There once was a great white-bearded master who appeared at the boundary of the Central Territory on his journey west. Followers came from everywhere to sit at his feet, for he was a model of universal harmony. His teaching was simple, yet profound. His instruction was neither ordinary religion nor worldly wisdom, yet it revealed the truth of every aspect of the universe. All of his friends and followers lived virtuously and performed whatever work came to them joyfully. They maintained a peaceful, righteous way of life and enjoyed the abundance of their being. After their daily word was completed, they cleansed themselves carefully and fed themselves properly. Then they went to the garden where the old master stayed and awaited his precious instruction. 

 

 Ni's HHC 1


KAP

bye for now
Mal - artmgs@yahoo.com
You are not what you think you are. But what you think... you are.
"Don't think.....feel" Bruce Lee | "Feel.....don't think" Qui-Gon Jinn

#30 流浪者

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 05:42 PM

I was previously unaware of this book's existence and teachings. I will very much enjoy reading these threads on the HHC.

 

A great poetry book I found recently is "Collected Songs of Cold Mountain"






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