Religion or a Philosophy?

[INsearch]

My question is this.... what is Taoism? is it a Philosophy? is it a Religion? Does Taoism have it own idea of Enlightenment? or is Enlightenment nothing strived for in Taoism? You meditate.. for what?

[Unconditioned]

My question is this.... what is Taoism? is it a Philosophy? is it a Religion? Does Taoism have it own idea of Enlightenment? or is Enlightenment nothing strived for in Taoism? You meditate.. for what?

 

Just my take:

 

It is not a religion but it has traditions (no one is asking you to believe anything).

 

It is not a philosophy in that it does not try to describe/conceptualize life but it aims for you to experience it.

 

There are as many ideas about Enlightenment as there are people! From a Taoist perspective, what is striven for is to become part of the Tao, the ever-present existence, and to realize what exactly 'we' are.

 

Edit: I meditate to prepare myself to receive enlightenment. We can create the conditions, but we cannot make the seed blossom of our own will.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Unconditioned

[doc benway]

Just my take:

 

It is not a religion but it has traditions (no one is asking you to believe anything).

 

It is not a philosophy in that it does not try to describe/conceptualize life but it aims for you to experience it.

 

There are as many ideas about Enlightenment as there are people! From a Taoist perspective, what is striven for is to become part of the Tao, the ever-present existence, and to realize what exactly 'we' are.

 

Edit: I meditate to prepare myself to receive enlightenment. We can create the conditions, but we cannot make the seed blossom of our own will.

Very nicely stated.

[INsearch]

hmm Interesting so its not really a religion? then why become Enlightened? Do Taoists believe in rebirth? cuz the only time I hear of someone trying to attain enlightenment is to break the cycle of rebirths? If Taoists believe in rebirths wouldn't that be a fairly religious trait?

[Unconditioned]

hmm Interesting so its not really a religion? then why become Enlightened? Do Taoists believe in rebirth? cuz the only time I hear of someone trying to attain enlightenment is to break the cycle of rebirths? If Taoists believe in rebirths wouldn't that be a fairly religious trait?

 

Great questions!

 

There are different views on 'why' to seek enlightenment. Generally, Buddhism is about the ending of suffering. With Enlightenment comes the wisdom to realize/remove the source of suffering. With Taoism I believe it is more a quest for truth, for the common answers we all have: why are we here? what is the purpose? what is life? what is the meaning of it all? That is my interpretation anyway, I'm sure others will post if they think differently.

 

Do Taoists believe in rebirth?

Every moment things change. I am not the same person i was from when i woke up today. The food in my pantry is not the same as when i bought it yesterday. The cells in my body are constantly dying and new ones are born.

 

So in a very literal sense, rebirth is a primary function of life. The changing seasons are a great example. What happens when the body is no longer alive? I can't say... so I leave that be until it happens. I have ideas but they are just that - creations of my mind.

 

I don't don't think Taoism is about believing in anything. It is about investigation and experiencing more than anything it is a science. Sure, the masters tell us that we are reborn into new bodies, etc. but until we are enlightened it is only a belief based on our own experiences and how we view the master (whether we believe them or not).

 

To be honest, I don't bother about if we're born in a new body or not. I am trying to get rid of my own ignorance and understand exact what "I" am.

[wuliheron]

All religions have an underlying philosophy, so it is not an either/or proposition. Many religious Taoists believe in some kind of ultimate enlightenment and/or rebirth, but not all. If you believe that religion requires faith in and worship of something there are many Taoists who are not religious.

 

Personally, whether there is a god(s) or enlightenment or rebirth or whatever does not matter to me. Meditation of all kinds makes me more compassionate and serene. All the rest is just so much window dressing without these.

[Taomeow]

Taoism is a process of manifestation of Hetu and Luoshu into human affairs.

[Unconditioned]

Taoism is a process of manifestation of Hetu and Luoshu into human affairs.

 

Can you explain what/who those are a little bit?

[Taomeow]

Can you explain what/who those are a little bit?

 

Sure -- look here, e.g.:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=t8h8myrpx...0&ct=result

[INsearch]

Sure, the masters tell us that we are reborn into new bodies, etc.

The masters say we are reborn? when you refer to "masters" would that also include the guy... uhhh he started Taoism lol I cant remember his name but did he teach "Rebirth" ? if he did why do so many not believe it?

 

I got another question: I have heard refferred many times stuff like Shamanism, and Magic and such.... why? Would Taoism be more like Witchcraft to the Wicca? not a belief but a practice instead?

[Pranaman]

my take is this:

 

when I picture the way the universe is works(the way or tao), I see a mandelbrot set.

taoism is about riding the natural patterns while climbing to higher waves of them.

balancing all experiences.

 

 

the nondual does not exist in duality.

balance your self, and neither will you.

[wuliheron]

The masters say we are reborn? when you refer to "masters" would that also include the guy... uhhh he started Taoism lol I cant remember his name but did he teach "Rebirth" ? if he did why do so many not believe it?

 

I got another question: I have heard refferred many times stuff like Shamanism, and Magic and such.... why? Would Taoism be more like Witchcraft to the Wicca? not a belief but a practice instead?

 

My take on this is that Taoism was created by Indians who combined their pantheistic beliefs with the native Chinese shamanism. As a result Taoism is widely considered to be the most feminine of all the world's major systems of thought. In general, shamanistic/witchcraft beliefs are much more feminine than other systems of thought.

 

Ironically there are few women in the west that are particularly interested in Taoism. Those that I have talked to say they prefer the rituals of shamanism and witchcraft, but they greatly admire the philosophy of Taoism. My own daughter is among them.

 

Actually it reminds me of what I have heard about Taoist priests. It is said that if pressed some of them will admit that they are agnostic, but they teach their religion because the people really seem to get something out of it. My daughter says much the same thing. She doesn't really believe in magic or god(s) and agrees with Taoist philosophy, but she really like all those rituals.

[froggie]

it is neither a religion nor a philosophy in my opinion, but it is more than those two

[Yuen Biao]

My question is this.... what is Taoism? is it a Philosophy? is it a Religion? Does Taoism have it own idea of Enlightenment? or is Enlightenment nothing strived for in Taoism? You meditate.. for what?

 

I'd say Taoism is a philosophy. If you look at meditation for example, it is designed to balance; we live so much in the external realm which philosophically implies the internal.

 

One might then make the leap and say that the very existence of finite beings implies the infinite.

 

Well, that's my stance stated philosophically.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Yuen Biao

[Taomeow]

Let me rephrase what I said earlier.

 

Taoism is a method to bring the human microcosm into harmonious correspondence with the macrocosm. This method uses its proprietary tools -- Hetu, Luoshu and all their subsequent derivatives, beginning with the Five Classics, of which the first and most venerated one is the I Ching, and all philosophical, religious, scientific, artistic, physical and metaphysical applications thereof developed in the course of taoism's evolution.

 

Another way to put it is, taoism is a system of cultivation -- much like agriculture is a system of cultivation, in the first case of the human beings and human affairs, in the second, of one of their derivatives. This system of cultivation employs as many tools as it needs for any given cultivation task. Some of these tools are religious, others philosophical, but none are reducible to a religion or a philosophy, anymore than agriculture is reducible to stickers slapped onto apples and tomatoes before presenting them to customers at the supermarket.

 

In other words, to allow/facilitate/create conditions/remove obstacles, etc., for an apple to grow healthy and nutritious is taoism; to slap a sticker on that apple before selling it to the customers is religion or philosophy of taoism. The sticker can name the apple -- "Apple, Granny Smith," and inform the customer who, when, where has cultivated it so it can be sold at the supermarket under a particular price tag. However, a customer who happens to be following the taoist path would never equate reading the sticker and learning all that info to getting to know the apple itself. She may or may not read the label -- she's there for the apple, and she will eventually remove the sticker, with or without having read it, and eat the apple. This is how she will "embody the tao of the apple." If she only reads the sticker she will embody the tao of the sticker. Religious, philosophical, or commercial -- doesn't matter much, it's still the tao of the sticker.

 

The tao of the apple is in the totality of the cosmic and human process that brings its existence and nonexistence -- Conception, Growth, Fruition, Consummation. This is the main process taoism is concerned with. Labeling, Pricing, Advertising, Selling may come into the picture as a side effect, but taoism is concerned with the main process, not the side effects.

 

It's useful to keep in mind though that 99% of the customers at the supermarket will learn about Labeling, Pricing, Advertising, Selling of the apple from this particular source, and about nothing else. They are the ones who will be arguing about the true meaning of this sticker vs. that sticker. A taoist, however, will be concerned with whether pesticides were used, whether it signifies anything that no worm in its right mind can live in one of these apples, whether the juiciness and flavor of the apple delight the senses or have been sacrificed to the imperatives of "shelf life," whether the apple orchard that used to belong to a family now belongs to Monsanto and the apple is genetically modified and will cause carcinogenic mutations, and so on. Moreover, the taoist doesn't need the sticker on the apple to know it's an apple so as to be able to tell it from a banana. If it is mislabeled and says, in clear print, "banana," she will ignore what the label says because she knows what an apple is, and no sticker will convince her it's a banana.

[Unconditioned]

Let me rephrase what I said earlier.

 

Taoism is a method to bring the human microcosm into harmonious correspondence with the macrocosm. This method uses its proprietary tools -- Hetu, Luoshu and all their subsequent derivatives, beginning with the Five Classics, of which the first and most venerated one is the I Ching, and all philosophical, religious, scientific, artistic, physical and metaphysical applications thereof developed in the course of taoism's evolution.

 

Another way to put it is, taoism is a system of cultivation -- much like agriculture is a system of cultivation, in the first case of the human beings and human affairs, in the second, of one of their derivatives. This system of cultivation employs as many tools as it needs for any given cultivation task. Some of these tools are religious, others philosophical, but none are reducible to a religion or a philosophy, anymore than agriculture is reducible to stickers slapped onto apples and tomatoes before presenting them to customers at the supermarket.

 

In other words, to allow/facilitate/create conditions/remove obstacles, etc., for an apple to grow healthy and nutritious is taoism; to slap a sticker on that apple before selling it to the customers is religion or philosophy of taoism. The sticker can name the apple -- "Apple, Granny Smith," and inform the customer who, when, where has cultivated it so it can be sold at the supermarket under a particular price tag. However, a customer who happens to be following the taoist path would never equate reading the sticker and learning all that info to getting to know the apple itself. She may or may not read the label -- she's there for the apple, and she will eventually remove the sticker, with or without having read it, and eat the apple. This is how she will "embody the tao of the apple." If she only reads the sticker she will embody the tao of the sticker. Religious, philosophical, or commercial -- doesn't matter much, it's still the tao of the sticker.

 

The tao of the apple is in the totality of the cosmic and human process that brings its existence and nonexistence -- Conception, Growth, Fruition, Consummation. This is the main process taoism is concerned with. Labeling, Pricing, Advertising, Selling may come into the picture as a side effect, but taoism is concerned with the main process, not the side effects.

 

It's useful to keep in mind though that 99% of the customers at the supermarket will learn about Labeling, Pricing, Advertising, Selling of the apple from this particular source, and about nothing else. They are the ones who will be arguing about the true meaning of this sticker vs. that sticker. A taoist, however, will be concerned with whether pesticides were used, whether it signifies anything that no worm in its right mind can live in one of these apples, whether the juiciness and flavor of the apple delight the senses or have been sacrificed to the imperatives of "shelf life," whether the apple orchard that used to belong to a family now belongs to Monsanto and the apple is genetically modified and will cause carcinogenic mutations, and so on. Moreover, the taoist doesn't need the sticker on the apple to know it's an apple so as to be able to tell it from a banana. If it is mislabeled and says, in clear print, "banana," she will ignore what the label says because she knows what an apple is, and no sticker will convince her it's a banana.

 

Wow, this is a GREAT analogy. Very well written/said - thank you!

[Taomeow]

You are very welcome! -- thanks for listening!

Edited November 7, 2008 by Taomeow

[Wayfarer64]

I doubt there is a banana that "wants" to be an apple. That would not be natural. But humans find a natural way to change ourselves...

 

Yes, we humans try so very hard to be more than what we now are - we do cultivate ourselves to become something else -maybe more than what we see ourselves as -

 

For me, as Taoists... we accept ourselves first as what we are and begin to reach for a greater involvement in the universal oneness we sense we belong to-

 

It is a Way to be and to grow into a larger sense of being, we align ourselves to the universe and ride life like the wave of energy we truly are -

[Taomeow]

I doubt there is a banana that "wants" to be an apple. That would not be natural. But humans find a natural way to change ourselves...

 

Yes, we humans try so very hard to be more than what we now are - we do cultivate ourselves to become something else -maybe more than what we see ourselves as -

 

For me, as Taoists... we accept ourselves first as what we are and begin to reach for a greater involvement in the universal oneness we sense we belong to-

 

It is a Way to be and to grow into a larger sense of being, we align ourselves to the universe and ride life like the wave of energy we truly are -

 

Agree some, disagree some... maybe we're talking apples and oranges?

 

From my taoist explorations I gleaned that it's not about an apple becoming a banana at all... it's about an apple becoming a real apple... about a waxed fruit that tastes almost like a wax one, GM, pesticided, nutritionally depleted, irradiated, pretty on the surface but with flavor flattened and true juiciness gone (and believe me, I know what a real apple tastes, smells and "apples" like, and you can't buy that today at any HFS) becoming a real apple again. I don't think it's about becoming more than that or something different from that.

 

It's common to focus on the first (yang) part of the Law -- "the way of tao is motion" -- and fail to notice the second (yin) part -- "and the pattern of this motion is return." So it might look like we're moving toward being more than we are, but in reality, a taoist cultivator is moving away from having become less than she is. "The way" is "away" and not "toward" --

 

this may be the reason tao is invariably described by the classics through stating what it "isn't," never what it "is." "If he doesn't laugh, it's not the tao." Not "if he laughs, it is tao." "If it can be spoken, it is not the way." Not "if it can't be spoken, it's the way." Tricky, sneaky... eh? ... That's why it is never asserted that we are "a wave of energy." Maybe we are... but for starters, we AREN'T fully human -- and that's taoism's first concern, far as I can tell... the first goal of cultivation, which may or may not be the last one, is to correct that.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Taomeow

[Wayfarer64]

Agree some, disagree some... maybe we're talking apples and oranges?

 

From my taoist explorations I gleaned that it's not about an apple becoming a banana at all... it's about an apple becoming a real apple... about a waxed fruit that tastes almost like a wax one, GM, pesticided, nutritionally depleted, irradiated, pretty on the surface but with flavor flattened and true juiciness gone (and believe me, I know what a real apple tastes, smells and "apples" like, and you can't buy that today at any HFS) becoming a real apple again. I don't think it's about becoming more than that or something different from that.

 

It's common to focus on the first (yang) part of the Law -- "the way of tao is motion" -- and fail to notice the second (yin) part -- "and the pattern of this motion is return." So it might look like we're moving toward being more than we are, but in reality, a taoist cultivator is moving away from having become less than she is. "The way" is "away" and not "toward" --

 

this may be the reason tao is invariably described by the classics through stating what it "isn't," never what it "is." "If he doesn't laugh, it's not the tao." Not "if he laughs, it is tao." "If it can be spoken, it is not the way." Not "if it can't be spoken, it's the way." Tricky, sneaky... eh? ... That's why it is never asserted that we are "a wave of energy." Maybe we are... but for starters, we AREN'T fully human -- and that's taoism's first concern, far as I can tell... the first goal of cultivation, which may or may not be the last one, is to correct that.

 

tricky & sly to boot! such is the universe we live in - It seems we are talking about integration to some degree integrating our yin with our yang componants as well as our ego/personality/self into what we can (for ease of discussion only) call the Tao...

 

I agree words will never reach the meaning of our complex attempts to harmonize our selves/the rest of the universe, but it seems that we can cultivate ourselves to be more aware that we are spiritually/ humanly and the other sub-divisions part of a greater whole,

 

I've read where we can judge ourselves as evolved beings by how we see ourselves - as in -what plane we think we are on... I'm not sure of this but it may be so-

 

we become who we intend to be by directing our attention and indevors...perhaps

[Taomeow]

tricky & sly to boot! such is the universe we live in - It seems we are talking about integration to some degree integrating our yin with our yang componants as well as our ego/personality/self into what we can (for ease of discussion only) call the Tao...

 

I agree words will never reach the meaning of our complex attempts to harmonize our selves/the rest of the universe, but it seems that we can cultivate ourselves to be more aware that we are spiritually/ humanly and the other sub-divisions part of a greater whole,

 

I've read where we can judge ourselves as evolved beings by how we see ourselves - as in -what plane we think we are on... I'm not sure of this but it may be so-

 

we become who we intend to be by directing our attention and indevors...perhaps

 

"We become what we admire."

 

I hope.

[doc benway]

My question is this.... what is Taoism? is it a Philosophy? is it a Religion? Does Taoism have it own idea of Enlightenment? or is Enlightenment nothing strived for in Taoism? You meditate.. for what?

A few additional thoughts:

When you watch someone performing Daoist rituals and worship, be they bowing to deities or blessing something, it looks a lot like religion.

If you watch someone divining using Yijing and yarrow, it looks like shamanism.

When you read Laozi, Zhuangzi, and Liezi it looks a lot like philosophy.

When you practice meditation and other aspects of cultivation, it looks quite a bit like yoga - is that religion? philosophy? mental and physical exercise? I don't know.

I don't think it's possible or even useful to try and limit Daoism by any categorizing or labeling it.

My Chinese friends describe it as part religion, part philosophy, part practice, and partly a general framework or foundation of daily life. For most people in China, Daoist principles are blended with Buddhist, Confucian, and Maoist sensibilities and now Western ideologies as well. I don't think it's easy to really separate out the Daoist component from the rest.

In terms of the exportation of Daoism to the West, we've latched on primarily to philosophical aspects and a few of us have been fortunate enough to be exposed to cultivation methods. Very little of the religious traditions travelled outside of China other than in the families of the Chinese diaspora.