Taoism of Western Imagination

[Apech]

I found the original paper interesting but that the author was writing from a pre-defined point of view. He is clearly in favour of orthodoxy and against individual freedom of expression, pro-Catholic and anti-Protestant and this rather obvious stance obscured his otherwise valid points.

 

He is right of course that some people's take on the Tao Te Ching is a million miles from a traditional Chinese view. That people have taken from the text what they want and been highly selective in what they accept and what they don't. I suppose it is a danger of being outside the orthodox that we are vulnerable to our own delusions and fantasies in a way that the obedient members of a church are not. That we become self indulgent and confuse this confused freedom with strength. However what the writer overlooks I think is that modern takes on 'spirituality' are a new emergent and despite the amount of nonsense this might produce, this has to be balanced against those who gain a genuine revelatory experience and that those who do are almost always anti or at least outside of the established churches or schools of discipline.

[VCraigP]

Needless to say, none of them claimed to be a 'daoist' (daoshi), none used to hold seminars wearing funny hats and costumes or boasted holding lineages of 7000 generations.

They simply did as they pleased, cultivated their hobbies and interests some to an actual high level.

YM

 

YM

 

isn't it time you really expressed yourself instead of beating around the bush?

 

You are seeking to attack a certain group, and certain individual(s) who have been prevalent on this forum.

 

In the words of Buddy - stop being passive aggressive. Just state your truth in your voice.

 

You think someone is a fraud, step up and say so. This overly intellectuallized discussion which leaves out the idea of actual practice which leads to actual EXPERIENCE is unnecessary and in my view self indulgent.

 

I would reiterate TM's question to you earlier. What is your experience? What practice do you do, and what can you say about that? This is the true nature and purpose of a forum in my view. Although your oblique critiques have lead to some really priceless responses in my opinion, especially from Taomeow and now more recently from MJBecker and SongYD.

 

Thanks for that at least.

 

Craig

[YMWong]

There are plenty of people who misrepresent themselves to make money. They'll say they are whatever sells. But this too is hardly a new phenomenon. In almost every city I've traveled through in China in most any park you can find a 'master' in funny clothes any morning of the week. And they all boast lineages going back to Zhang Sanfeng, Laozi, or even Huangdi. And most would say they're Daoist, Buddhist, Tibetan, pretty much what ever it took to crack open a western wallet. Lets not confuse the charlatans with the hobby Daoists, they are two entirely different breeds.

 

Misrepresentation is of course not a western-only phenomenon, of course.

But as I haven't seen their students over on this board advertising I see no point in discussing them. If me and you were at the park watching them then it might be great to comment.

[YMWong]

You are seeking to attack a certain group, and certain individual(s) who have been prevalent on this forum.

 

In the words of Buddy - stop being passive aggressive. Just state your truth in your voice.

 

You think someone is a fraud, step up and say so. This overly intellectuallized discussion which leaves out the idea of actual practice which leads to actual EXPERIENCE is unnecessary and in my view self indulgent.

 

Craig,

 

experience is certainly of prominent importance but it is also one of the most tricky things.

The 'actual experience' you speak of is first of all in the mind, but the mind is a very convoluted matter at times.

You take ten people *from the street* and have them do Kunlun or what-have-you WITHOUT telling them ANYTHING, without letting them know what to expect, without any information - that is.

 

Just explain the practice to them and let them do: then watch their "actual experience".

 

You might be surprised.

 

Needless to say and by the same token, my "actual experiences" are very much mind-connected so they might be *unreal*. But I claim no mastery, I don't own and try to sell any truth and just do what I like.

I was just expressing my views on mostly some historical and cultural claims.

 

I guess my reply won't satisfy your request in full, for which I apologize.

 

YM

[VCraigP]

Craig,

 

experience is certainly of prominent importance but it is also one of the most tricky things.

The 'actual experience' you speak of is first of all in the mind, but the mind is a very convoluted matter at times.

You take ten people *from the street* and have them do Kunlun or what-have-you WITHOUT telling them ANYTHING, without letting them know what to expect, without any information - that is.

 

Just explain the practice to them and let them do: then watch their "actual experience".

 

You might be surprised.

 

Needless to say and by the same token, my "actual experiences" are very much mind-connected so they might be *unreal*. But I claim no mastery, I don't own and try to sell any truth and just do what I like.

I was just expressing my views on mostly some historical and cultural claims.

 

I guess my reply won't satisfy your request in full, for which I apologize.

 

YM

 

 

YM

 

Your suggested experiment is an interesting one.

 

In response to your "no mastery" claim I must point out the vast majority here claim no mastery and yet we discuss our experiences quite frequently. Therefore your answer really seems like a dodge to me. Perhaps you have your own reasons for not sharing of yourself and carrying on with your clear hit pieces against what are in your view erroneous historical and cultural claims.

In fact, although you have put forth an interesting article by a scholar who has a very pointed opinions about cultural imperialism and has painted the whole interest in the Tao and even in Zen in the west as another example of this type of thought, you have not demonstrated to me at least how this invalidates anything that you are objecting to. In particular you are objecting to Max Christensen wearing "Taoist" garb (I almost hesitate to use the term Taoist for fear you would castigate me) and using the term Kunlun, and/or Maoshan.

 

You are using a scholarly approach to attack Max by picking bits and pieces which you have garnered from various available media. I believe TaoMeow has a great deal more credibility talking about Maoshan on the basis of her significant experience. If you did some research into her older posts you would find allusions and indications about that experience and knowledge garnered from real world experience which grant her the credibility to talk about Maoshan from experience. Your attempt to denigrate what she knows of Maoshan from being taught compared to what you know from literature and pop culture is in this light silly.

 

Max uses the term Kunlun to refer to the mountain and to refer to the mountain top of the body. In my view he uses the term loosely. Obviously anyone using language imprecisely is objectionable to you.

 

Apparently you have objected to the use of Maoshan in connection with his lineage. I believe this has been refuted by his actual stated lineage connections.

 

You object to his wearing Taoist garb. I don't know what would grant him the right to wear such garb, but I don't know with any certainty that he hasn't been given that right. Do you?

 

Yes, experience is a tricky thing. It is all of the mind. I think you and the article cited have proven clearly that scholarly works and less than scholarly works are also Of the Mind. The article points out the Tao te Jing is the result of a reworking of the original as an act of marketing in the 3rd century (from memory, date cited may be off) which was designed to have a broad appeal. Is there no more fine example of a construct of the mind than this? does that mean that all benefit garnered by the multitudes who have read it are worthless?

 

but enough jousting.

 

Just address my earlier request.

 

Be straight. Make a clear point. If you think something is not correct you should say in what way. How is it harmful. I really want to know.

 

You think Kunlun is dangerous? Who cares about cultural or historical claims really. If that is all you can attack I think you are done. If you have more pointed critiques to make I invite you to make them.

 

I have a long history of experiences within the umbrella term of "taoist practices". I have taken a seminar with Max but I remain open minded in all ways.

 

Again I invite you to be direct. Get it off your chest. You'll feel better

 

respectfully

 

Craig

[YMWong]

You are using a scholarly approach to attack Max by picking bits and pieces which you have garnered from various available media. I believe TaoMeow has a great deal more credibility talking about Maoshan on the basis of her significant experience. If you did some research into her older posts you would find allusions and indications about that experience and knowledge garnered from real world experience which grant her the credibility to talk about Maoshan from experience. Your attempt to denigrate what she knows of Maoshan from being taught compared to what you know from literature and pop culture is in this light silly.

 

Your assumption I know about Maoshan from literature and pop culture is totally off-base.

My first trip to Maoshan is dated, I think, 1984. My encounter with Maoshan Daoism much earlier in Taiwan.

You have things, IMHO, completely upside down. TM's view of Maoshan is what she reads in books (Eva Wong and the likes) and what she hears in the States from people like Max (TM, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong - I have not been on this board long enough to know more about you).

 

Apparently you have objected to the use of Maoshan in connection with his lineage. I believe this has been refuted by his actual stated lineage connections.

 

This is far from being the case, from my point of view.

Actual Mao Shan Daoism never existed in the Chinese community of Hawaii, which was composed of immigrants mainly from Guandong, the districts called Siyap, Zhongshan and Longdu. The Daoists, one named Wong and one named Li, were both local ritual masters from Longdu, mostly doing burials, and sometimes an adapted form of the Jiao, in which the freeing of souls (the Pudu) was the most important element.

 

Take care

 

YM

[Taomeow]

TM's view of Maoshan is what she reads in books (Eva Wong and the likes) and what she hears in the States from people like Max (TM, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong - I have not been on this board long enough to know more about you).

 

You are laughably wrong.

 

I come from Altai, not from Eva Wong and not from what I heard in the States. My link to Siberian-Mongolian-Manchu-shamanic/Maoshan/Tibetan Buddhist/Russian vorozhba traditions is a birthright.

 

When I was fifteen, I walked in an orthodox church in Kiev, the Vladimir Cathedral, a rather magnificent affair and one of the few functioning churches at the time, just out of curiosity --

I was on a trip during spring vacations and visiting places of interest with three of my girlfriends --

 

so we walked in and I just stood there watching the service and all of a sudden a bunch of old ladies started turning around and coming closer and then a few of them fell on their knees and started praying to me. Hitting their foreheads on the floor in front of my feet, no less. I ran out, terrified, and kept running for a mile, face burning, heart confused. Oh, by the way, I was wearing a miniskirt and some make-up, and I smoked and drank at that early age, but I was a virgin yet, and that's what I heard them mumble -- "the virgin, the holy virgin!" If you can tell me what this means -- and I'm not making it up, though of course I can never "prove" it --

 

but let's assume you believe me, just for a second... what do you make of it?.. I don't know what to make of it myself, but what I'm trying to say is, the very least of my learning has taken place in the course of "orderly" activities like reading books and attending seminars. The bulk of what I've learned, and from whom, and how exactly, I couldn't even begin telling to someone of your persuasion. Sorry.

 

Still, you're laughably wrong when you assume anyone's inferiority here. There's not many people inferior to you on this forum, YM, really. You might like to believe the opposite, understandably... but it's simply not the case. We're not a bunch of suckers ISO straightening out, most of us. Really...

Edited September 28, 2008 by Taomeow

[YMWong]

I come from Altai, not from Eva Wong and not from what I heard in the States. My link to Siberian-Mongolian-Manchu-shamanic/Maoshan/Tibetan Buddhist/Russian vorozhba traditions is a birthright.

 

That's quite a bunch of heterogeneous stuff to be placed in the same pout-pourri ...

 

 

YM

 

EDIT: By the way, in case this wasn't clear, I actually believe anything you said

Edited September 28, 2008 by YMWong

[mjjbecker]

By the way, "Westerners" is an interesting term in this sort of discussions. Perhaps I'm guilty of having used it too on occasion in the sense "arrogant idiots," but... Well, let's see...

 

What do we call people -- way over a billion of them -- who

 

learn a curriculum of standard Western sciences for their standard schooling;

subscribe to a state-sponsored official ideology, that of atheism and "scientific materialism;"

burn all scriptures they can find, demolish taoist and buddhist temples, then rebuild a few of them to boost tourism, and appoint Communist party officials as priests and monks -- the real ones having been either killed or locked up in concentration camps just a historic second earlier;

and so on?..

 

Tip: we can't really call them Europeans, nor Americans... so when we talk about those big bad clueless Westerners who do those horrible stupid things to taoism, we don't include them, right? But... looks like one doesn't have to be a Westerner in order to do reprehensible things with, to, against taoism?.. And if one is not a Westerner, does it guarantee a wonderfully tactful and respectful treatment of taoism?.. See above...

 

Mike,

 

excellent analysis! Thank you.

 

My pleasure and thank you for your very pertinent observations also.

 

Human nature can be very depressing as well as very inspiring. Adversity teaches us far more than the comfortable times ever can. Everyone has their own life to lead and the 'good' and 'bad' that goes with it. Anyone reading this should be grateful they weren't born in Darfur. Perspective gives some proportion to our 'woes'.

 

I remember watching some victims of an earthquake in Pakistan being interviewed by the BBC. Their spokesperson quietly thanked the BBC for giving them the opportunity of letting the world know of their predicament and thanked the viewers in advance for any help they could provide. These people were villagers in a fairly remote region. This was a stark contrast to one obese woman in New Orleans after the floods and destruction there, whereby she derided the Federal government over the fact she has not eaten in several hours...

 

'Debate' and argument are part of it. Progress for me is that my pulse rate rarely changes these days no matter what I read, (not bad for a supporter of Newcastle United, believe me). Beats the old 'Nuremberg Rally' moments of the past when the 'inner Adolf' would insist on having his say.

 

Attachment to fixed ideals is a dangerous thing.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[Taomeow]

That's quite a bunch of heterogeneous stuff to be placed in the same pout-pourri ...

 

Not my fault. Read up on the historic/geographic peculiarities of the place, you might understand why it's a "pout-pourri."

 

I almost forgot -- originally, I said something about Maoshan, you said, gimme a reference, meaning wherever my information is coming from isn't good unless it's from a written source, I then gave you one from Eva Wong since that was the only written reference I had handy, you then said Eva Wong is not a taoist, yada yada... fine, but then you come back and announce that I know Maoshan from Eva Wong. What's wrong with this picture?..

 

So now you believe me, that's good news. Thank you. Eva Wong was my written reference, is what she was. Max was someone whose seminar I attended years after I made my first peep about Maoshan. Now I'm off the hook, right?

Edited September 28, 2008 by Taomeow

[metzu]

[YMWong]

I strongly believe you, Taomeow, because I believe you are a honest person.

I read this in your words and feel this from what's behind.

 

But the fact that you are honest and therefore telling me/us what you really believe do not make your words more 'true' or what you say more objective.

 

If you say that you are linked to "Siberian-Mongolian-Manchu-shamanic/Maoshan/Tibetan Buddhist/Russian vorozhba" than I wish you all the best. What can I say.

To me, from an evidently very uninformed perspective (at least on the siberiantibetanrussianetc.etc.), they are all hardly related. But if you say they are, because you were born in Russia and all the experience I am sure you had, there is not much a can reply to you.

 

To me we are talking apples and oranges.

 

It's hard for me to discuss about Maoshan with you if refuse what I say on the basis of having been in a orthodox church in Kiev when you were fifteen.

Of course I am stretching the issue here but I hope you'll understand my line of reasoning.

 

I have posted to you references to the claims, made by Max and Chris, to being part of Shangqing Pai Maoshan Daoism after you said the opposite.

You haven't replied to that and now you pull up the siberianmongoliantibetan etc. story.

 

To be in Maoshan Daoism one must have been accepted by a Maoshan teacher.

If you ask a Doctor about his background, he will simply tell you he graduated from such and such University under certain teachers, submitted a thesis about something etc.

In the same way, when a Daoist is asked or simply speaking among fellow pratictioners any Daoist would present his "credentials" and tell you the 'tan' (altar) he belongs to, the sect he was accepted by, the teacher he studied with, his daoist name according to the lineal poem of the sect etc.

This is standard practice and good manner in all walk of life, including Daoism of course.

 

Ask Max or Lum and see what they say.

 

Honesty is a good thing, very good thing, but when it encounters dis-honesty it often looses.

 

YM

[Taomeow]

 

To be in Maoshan Daoism one must have been accepted by a Maoshan teacher.

 

Now you got it.

 

However, to a teacher of the Badmaev lineage Maoshan is small fry, a fraction of what they've been up to. Physicians to tzars, teachers to Dalai Lamas. OK, now I've dropped the name. Let's see what you can do with it...

[YMWong]

However, to a teacher of the Badmaev lineage Maoshan is small fry, a fraction of what they've been up to. Physicians to tzars, teachers to Dalai Lamas. OK, now I've dropped the name. Let's see what you can do with it...

 

I won't tell you what I'll do with that as I don't want you to get angry again

 

Be well

 

YM

[Taomeow]

I won't tell you what I'll do with that as I don't want you to get angry again

 

Be well

 

YM

I don't get angry when I stub my toe. I just try to remember where that stone lies in my path and walk around it the next time.

[YMWong]

I don't get angry when I stub my toe. I just try to remember where that stone lies in my path and walk around it the next time.

 

That's good, as you need it this time

 

YM

[Taomeow]

That's good, as you need it this time

 

YM

Allow me to be the judge of what I need when.

[YMWong]

Allow me to be the judge of what I need when.

 

No problem !

Shall I be the jury or the executioner ?

 

 

YM

[Taomeow]

No problem !

Shall I be the jury or the executioner ?

 

 

YM

You're living in a dream world, Neo.

[YMWong]

No problem !

Shall I be the jury or the executioner ?

 

 

YM

 

 

[林愛偉]

Wonderful article! That should be in bookstores!

 

Is it? I hope so.

[Taomeow]

YM, it's more like this:

 

 

watch?v=EZc8nvL9SJM

[宁]

great discussion you two'z

 

but it's more like this (Oh Long Johnson!!)

 

 

 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxZabf3u89s&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxZabf3u89s&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxZabf3u89s&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

 

Guess what the last cat would answer if you'd ask her: What is a REal DaoisT??

Edited September 28, 2008 by Little1

[Taomeow]

Oh my Little1, you had to bring up Long Johnson again... I couldn't stop saying it for a year after first hearing it. Oh my dog. Oh Don Piano. Not again.

[YMWong]

YM, it's more like this:

 

 

watch?v=EZc8nvL9SJM

 

LOL

 

That was funny !

Not as much as some of the posts here on Thebums but quite ...

 

 

YM