Are religions given to us by… other forces?

[Haribol]

Obscure question perhaps, and wording as well. But I wonder, are various scriptures revealed (to a greater or lesser degree) by higher (or lower) forces (non-human entities) to various groups at various times to humanity?

[Nungali]

Various scriptures have different origins .   

 

Avestas  -    Various oral traditions / 'hymns'    that evolved through centuries  that were later written down and standardized  much later which was a small percentage of a much larger  earlier collection .

 

Judaism - adopted several different cultural stories  ( from Canaanite  , Zoroastrian and  Babylonian sources ) and wrote a 'religious history '  lifted from Assyrians  ( eg  old 'United Kingdom' , Solomon and  his 'empire '  )  ,   'found ' a scared Book of Law ( Torah )  and  wrote up a back story , attempting to take over the northern kingdom of Israel ( Josiah ) and eventually moved into some historical documentation of themselves after that .

 

Christianity -    1/2 their  scripture borrowed  from the above  and the other half are gospels , which are highly suspect  and  full of all sorts of other ideas and politics of the time . 

 

Islam -    where do I start ?    Actually ;  pass . 

 

- aside from that , a few times I have shared my ideas about origins  and spread of religions  .....   post ice age ,   ie . human accrued experience, not divine revelation .

 

- the further we go back the moire we attribute to as 'gifts from God/s '   . 

 

However to explore you question in the affirmative , look at 'progressive revelation  ( eg within a religion ; that would be 'Christian progressive revelation ' )  or  perhaps more in answer to your question , overall including all religions and times and peoples , ( see  Baha'i progressive revelation   concept  ) 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_(Baháʼí)

 

 

 

.

Edited Saturday at 09:02 PM by Nungali

[old3bob]

on a side note: religions are for use of mankind, mankind is not for use of religions...

[Lairg]

Perhaps religions are designed to facilitate the management and use of humans

 

https://exopolitics.org/world-religions-are-historical-records-of-et-contact-genetic-experiments-in-multiple-edens/

 

These days the concept of humans as co-creators allows freedom from subservience

 

 

Edited Saturday at 09:38 PM by Lairg

[Haribol]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Islam -    where do I start ?    Actually ;  pass .

Please do. Mighty interresting.

[Haribol]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

on a side note: religions are for use of mankind, mankind is not for use of religions...

Sometimes I wonder

[steve]

5 hours ago, Haribol said:

Obscure question perhaps, and wording as well. But I wonder, are various scriptures revealed (to a greater or lesser degree) by higher (or lower) forces (non-human entities) to various groups at various times to humanity?

 

To think that the supreme creator of all things, or some higher or lower power, could do no better than the writings of the various extant and extinct religious traditions, their moral failings, farcical inaccuracies, and biases, is sort of comical IMO.

 

No personal attack intended Haribol, my apologies if you take any offense.

 

In my opinion, scriptures are the product of the human mind.

I think the more interesting question is what are the origins and factors that influence human creativity, insight, and imagination?

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:55 AM by steve

[stirling]

Religions are created by gnostics. A gnostic is someone who gains insight into the nature of reality. The gnostic can't shut up about it (typical gnostic thing) and so alienates, scares the shit out of, and excites a variety of the people he encounters with tales of his path. If the gnostic is persuasive enough, some of those who listen get the idea that they could do the same thing if they just do precisely as the gnostic has done. They write down his story as they remember it, but often misquoting or adding bits that they think are true or helpful, couching it in language that THEY understand but that may slightly obscure the teachings. Eventually the teacher leaves, or dies, and the stories from his path get distorted over time. Larger groups form into a religion where the 'teachings" are shared, practiced, etc. Eventually some of the people doing these practices "awaken" themselves, perhaps accidentally stumbling on to some of the fairly simple pithy principles at the center of the now fairly elaborate religion. As gnostics, they understand that the practices themselves were not the mechanism for illumination, or concoct their own practices, being able to see where the religion has become slightly or greatly corrupted, and they often leave to teach what they know based on their own path. 

 

The way to enlightenment isn't actually hidden, it is man that corrupts what is actually a fairly simple set of principles.

[steve]

29 minutes ago, stirling said:

Religions are created by gnostics. A gnostic is someone who gains insight into the nature of reality. The gnostic can't shut up about it (typical gnostic thing) and so alienates, scares the shit out of, and excites a variety of the people he encounters with tales of his path. If the gnostic is persuasive enough, some of those who listen get the idea that they could do the same thing if they just do precisely as the gnostic has done. They write down his story as they remember it, but often misquoting or adding bits that they think are true or helpful, couching it in language that THEY understand but that may slightly obscure the teachings. Eventually the teacher leaves, or dies, and the stories from his path get distorted over time. Larger groups form into a religion where the 'teachings" are shared, practiced, etc. Eventually some of the people doing these practices "awaken" themselves, perhaps accidentally stumbling on to some of the fairly simple pithy principles at the center of the now fairly elaborate religion. As gnostics, they understand that the practices themselves were not the mechanism for illumination, or concoct their own practices, being able to see where the religion has become slightly or greatly corrupted, and they often leave to teach what they know based on their own path. 

 

The way to enlightenment isn't actually hidden, it is man that corrupts what is actually a fairly simple set of principles.

 

One of my favorite modern parables is Anthony Demello's parable about Jesus, or someone like him...

 

"A man invents the art of making fire and travels to cold, snow-covered regions where hill tribes shiver in the bitter cold. He teaches them how to make fire, showing them its benefits—staying warm, cooking food, building shelters. The people learn eagerly and are deeply grateful. But before they can thank him, he quietly slips away, uninterested in recognition or praise, embodying the nature of true greatness.

 

He moves to another tribe and teaches them the same skill. His popularity grows, alarming the local priests who fear losing their influence. They poison him. When suspicion arises, the priests act swiftly to protect themselves.

They place a portrait of the Great Inventor on the temple altar and create a liturgy to honor his name. The tools he used to make fire are enshrined in a sacred casket, believed to heal those who touch them with faith. The High Priest writes a biography of the Inventor, which becomes a Holy Book—celebrating his love, glorifying his deeds, and declaring his divine nature as a core article of faith. The priests ensure the Book is passed down through generations, interpreting its meaning authoritatively and punishing any deviation with excommunication or death.

 

Over time, the rituals, worship, and veneration are meticulously preserved for decades, then centuries. Yet, despite all the reverence, there is no fire. The people have forgotten how to make it. They have ritual, gratitude, and devotion—but no transformation.

 

Prayer is not a symbol of fire—it is fire itself, meaning inner transformation through awareness. If worship doesn’t lead to love, if liturgy doesn’t bring clearer perception, if God doesn’t lead to life, then religion is useless—breeding only division and fanaticism. The world doesn’t lack religion; it lacks love and awareness. True spirituality is not about rituals, but about awakening to reality, seeing through illusions, and allowing the fire of awareness to change your being."

Edited yesterday at 12:54 AM by steve

[stirling]

22 minutes ago, steve said:

One of my favorite modern parables is Anthony Demello's parable about Jesus, or someone like him...

 

Wonderful!

 

There is always a tension between the mystic and the monastic. The monastic believes that the written word is what leads to transformation, and the gnostic gnows that it only points the way. Being a gnostic (or heretic, depending on one's perspective) is a dangerous business. 

[Lairg]

13 minutes ago, stirling said:

There is always a tension between the mystic and the monastic

 

Fortunately we are moving into the Age of Aquarius.   Not too many monastics in future

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Haribol said:

Please do. Mighty interresting.

 

Please  do pass  ?   I did . 

[old3bob]

 

not much mention about the ways and means that the Devas and Gods help out mankind?  (including helping the historic Buddha at a critical juncture)  What gives?   Just meditate and be happy is all it takes.... since we have "our books and poetry to protect us" along with an all powerful intellect.

[old3bob]

12 hours ago, Haribol said:

Sometimes I wonder

 

right, similar wonderings for politics which are part of most everything mankind does regardless of trying to deny so.

[Haribol]

@steve @stirling "whats yours (and anyone else whod like to comment) attitude to displic succession and assotiation?

[steve]

36 minutes ago, Haribol said:

@steve @stirling "whats yours (and anyone else whod like to comment) attitude to displic succession and assotiation?

 

I think there is great value in respect for and preservation of lineage.

Methods that have been codified and handed down in an unbroken fashion, or documented in texts and rituals, can be wonderful guides and can help minimize wrong turns and obstacles. 

 

In the tradition I follow there is a very strong sense of the importance of unbroken lineage going back to the primordial Buddha, Kuntuzangpo. The secret hiding in plain sight is to recognize that this primordial Buddha is not a creator, not even a higher power. It is quite simply the core of who we are, and have always been, as sentient beings. We are never even a hair's breadth separate from "it." Similarly, the pantheon of gods, goddesses, yidams, dakinis, demons, and protectors, are convenient anthropomorphic representations of human qualities and potential. 

 

So even when we trace that lineage back through centuries or millennia of realized masters, and to our relationship with 'higher or lower power beings,' it ultimately comes to rest in me personally, and in my direct connection to the source of my lived experience and ultimate potential. 

 

Or something like that.

 

Edited 20 hours ago by steve

[stirling]

38 minutes ago, Haribol said:

@steve @stirling "whats yours (and anyone else whod like to comment) attitude to displic succession and assotiation?

 

I have great respect for the body of teachings and teachers that represents the lineage I am part of. The lineage is meant to embody an unbroken lineage between the teacher, back to the Buddha, and even further to the primordial buddhas. 

 

Teachers in my tradition are generally supposed to have realization, and therefore be able to apply skillful means to help others realize themselves. Having said that, I have encountered a number of teachers who aren't, but still embody kindness and have deep familiarity with the teachings, and with few exceptions, they are a refuge to those they meet. 

 

Our pledge is to be the vehicle for the greatest kindness, the dharma, with the intent to help others to realize Samyak Sambodhi , or "supreme, complete, and perfect awakening" in this lifetime. The way to embody that practice is the way of the Bodhisattva, and I aim to (imperfectly) be that refuge for all beings. 

 

Having said that, the Buddha way is not the only vehicle by a long shot, and I have deep respect for all of those pursuing the true nature of reality. 

 

BTW, Steve, thank you so much for your beautiful paragraph, and your continued practice and service to others. _/\_