Reincarnation, the soul, Hinduism and Buddhism

[Haribol]

So, my friends, a monk at the Krishna temple I attend mentioned that Buddhists believe in reincarnation, but not the soul. I got quiet, trying to figure out how that works. If there is not an individual soul that is unique to me and survives death, how can one be reincarnated?

 

Further more, what are your takes on the soul: do we have an individual one that transcends death, or is it more like a drop of water that gets reabsorbed into the one ocean of conciousness or whatever it is?

[Haribol]

Edited Tuesday at 10:03 PM by Haribol

[Gerard]

No one has the perfect answer to this complex topic. Btw, you answered yourself in the second paragraph. 

 
The ultimate YOU projects each mini-copies of you which will vary accordingly. View them as leaves on the tree connected by the branches.

 

We all store tiny fragments of all our lifetimes. You can access them via deep meditation, but it's a siddhi so not everyone may have developed that ability. 
 

Rather then being a small drop we are the ENTIRE OCEAN.

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

Generally goes from life to life is the subtle mind part of the mind (i.e. the storehouse consciousness or alaya vijnana or bhavanga citta or other terms depending on the school), but it is not a permanent, unitary, independent self. Rather, it is an afflicted consciousness. 

 

As the Dalai Lama XIV puts it:

 

A: ...If one understands the term "soul" as a continuum of individuality from moment to moment, from lifetime to lifetime, then one can say that Buddhism also accepts a concept of soul; there is a kind of continuum of consciousness. From that point of view, the debate on whether or not there is a soul becomes strictly semantic. However, in the Buddhist doctrine of selflessness, or "no soul" theory, the understanding is that there is no eternal, unchanging, abiding, permanent self called "soul." That is what is being denied in Buddhism.

 

from Healing Anger: The Power of Patience from a Buddhist Perspective by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

[Lairg]

4 hours ago, Gerard said:

The ultimate YOU projects each mini-copies of you

 

Agreed.

 

The real You produces a range of parallel lives to develop the human skills necessary for the purposes of the real You

 

 

[Gerard]

And you know what the best (it would be shocking to some) part is:

 

We are all living all lives simultaneously. 
 

Akin to quantum entanglement:

 

"Phenomenon wherein the quantum state of each particle in a group cannot be described independently of the state of the others."

 

This explains why we develop and maintain reincarnation relationships that span across many lifetimes. Eventually you'll drop them off: your journey is over. 
 

This stuff is beyond religion. The deeper you go the less religious one becomes to the point of becoming more and more aware of TOTALITY. 
 

Taoism fills that category really well even though it doesn't discuss this topic since it is more concerned about the dynamics of Y&Y.

 

 

 

[stirling]

19 hours ago, Haribol said:

So, my friends, a monk at the Krishna temple I attend mentioned that Buddhists believe in reincarnation, but not the soul. I got quiet, trying to figure out how that works. If there is not an individual soul that is unique to me and survives death, how can one be reincarnated?

 

It depends on which Buddhism you mean, and what you mean by reincarnation? While there might be some believe in the idea of being being transmitted into new bodies, certainly from a Mahayana perspective this does not happen. 

 

From a famous and respected Theravada priests perspective:

 

Quote

We can conclude by saying that if you understand anatta (no-self) correctly and truly, then you will discover for yourself that there is no rebirth and no reincarnation. The matter is finished. - Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

 

From the perspective of the Buddha's Diamond Sutra, well-known as a touchstone of the Mahayana tradition:

 

Quote

Buddha then asked, “What do you think, Subhuti, does one who has entered the stream which flows to Enlightenment, say ‘I have entered the stream’?”

 

“No, Buddha”, Subhuti replied. “A true disciple entering the stream would not think of themselves as a separate person that could be entering anything. Only that disciple who does not differentiate themselves from others, who has no regard for name, shape, sound, odor, taste, touch or for any quality can truly be called a disciple who has entered the stream.”

 

Buddha continued, “Does a disciple who is subject to only one more rebirth say to himself, ‘I am entitled to the honors and rewards of a Once-to-be-reborn.’?”

 

“No, Lord. ‘Once-to-be-reborn’ is only a name. There is no passing away, or coming into, existence. Only one who realizes this can really be called a disciple.”

 

“Subhuti, does a venerable One who will never more be reborn as a mortal say to himself, ‘I am entitled to the honor and rewards of a Non-returner.’?”

 

“No, Perfectly Enlightened One. A ‘Non-returner’ is merely a name. There is actually no one returning and no one not-returning.”

“Tell me, Subhuti. Does a Buddha say to himself, ‘I have obtained Perfect Enlightenment.’?”

 

“No, lord. There is no such thing as Perfect Enlightenment to obtain. If a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha were to say to himself, ‘I am enlightened’ he would be admitting there is an individual person, a separate self and personality, and would therefore not be a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha.”

 

Subhuti then said, “Most Honored One! You have said that I, Subhuti, excel amongst thy disciples in knowing the bliss of Enlightenment, in being perfectly content in seclusion, and in being free from all passions. Yet I do not say to myself that I am so, for if I ever thought of myself as such then it would not be true that I escaped ego delusion. I know that in truth there is no Subhuti and therefore Subhuti abides nowhere, that he neither knows nor does he not know bliss, and that he is neither free from nor enslaved by his passions.” - Diamond Sutra, Buddha

 

 

Quote

"There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity." - Shunryu Suzuki

 

Enlightened beings are not exclusive, or truly part of ANY religion or philosophy, hierarchy, or belief system. They realize that all such constructs only exist in the thinking mind. What they are not subject to birth or death. 

 

What YOU are is the same.

[old3bob]

 

 

[Lairg]

10 hours ago, Gerard said:

We are all living all lives simultaneously. 

 

Some of those lives are on parallel timelines.  Often I experience those while dreaming. 

 

A common sign is dreaming of people I know well, that look a bit differently in the dream and are the wrong ages or in the wrong relationships compared with this 3D timeline

 

In one dream I was with a cousin.  She looked a little differently so I asked her if she was my cousin in the 3D timeline and she said she was.  My long-passed mother was also in the dream and much younger than I ever remember her.

 

Edited yesterday at 08:08 PM by Lairg

[steve]

23 hours ago, Haribol said:

So, my friends, a monk at the Krishna temple I attend mentioned that Buddhists believe in reincarnation, but not the soul. I got quiet, trying to figure out how that works. If there is not an individual soul that is unique to me and survives death, how can one be reincarnated?

 

One way to think about it is in distinguishing the concept of reincarnation from rebirth.

Reincarnation implies a permanent, self-sustaining entity, atman, that transmigrates from one incarnation to another.

Rebirth implies the coalescence of mental and physical aggregates, which arise as a result of karma and dependent origination, in a new form in the absence of an eternal soul. 

I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong by any means, both are simply attempts to capture mystery in concepts and words.

I think rebirth is closer to what is described in Buddhism and reincarnation in Hindu systems.

 

23 hours ago, Haribol said:

Further more, what are your takes on the soul: do we have an individual one that transcends death, or is it more like a drop of water that gets reabsorbed into the one ocean of conciousness or whatever it is?

 

In terms of the soul, I can't say that I have a personal take per se but I do resonate with the Bönpo concept of "bla" which is the closest thing in the system to the Western idea of soul. Truth is, it is not equivalent to soul but an interesting take on the basic idea.

 

If you have the time and patience, this video does a nice job of exploring it -

 

 

[Lairg]

 ensoul /ĕn-sōl′/ transitive verb To endow with a soul. To place, receive, or cherish in the soul. To indue or imbue (a body) with soul.

 

It is my observation that on each plane on which it exists, a being (e.g. a human) has substance that is made coherent by an elemental natural to that plane - thereby forming an active body

 

That body may be enlivened by a higher intelligence, commonly a nature spirit, that manages the actions of the body in the broader context - thereby developing skills and forming relationships

 

If the now useful body appeals to higher intelligences, one such may over-light/ensoul the body.  In the case of humans, a solar deva may ensoul the higher mental, heart and spiritual will bodies.

 

The ensouling may continue as long as the higher intelligence finds the process useful, and/or until a more appropriate intelligence becomes available.  The more appropriate intelligence may operate on a higher plane within the natural structure of that being.

 

Thus there are different stages in the unfolding of the human.

 

 

Edited 23 hours ago by Lairg