What do you think about Neidan(內丹)?

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

Neigong is just as qigong but without so much of the physical movement.

 

The goal of these two is health and happiness or wellbeing as I would put it.

 

 

Yes, I agree, that is the commonality of both methods. 

[stirling]

15 minutes ago, 29Gathering said:

There's no disagreement between you and me as far as I understood. Unless you're saying that misinformation about Laozi is also a good thing, but I don't think that's what you're saying. The bait thrown about it was what I commented on. It was just the most obvious bait in this thread.

 

It is only "bait" if the reader has some attachment or aversion to the information, true or not. _/\_

 

While you are here why not add something of substance to the topic at hand?

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

Neidan is different. The usual version of where this came from is that it evolved from WeiDan, that is alchemy using substances to make pills or medicines for health and immortality. But I think it is more likely that the whole project of Dan production began as both inner and outer together and then split into two schools, one dealing with outer substances and the other with inner substances. The Neidan approach retained the technical terms from outer alchemy, like lead, sulpher, cinnabar and so on … but applied them differently. The same was done with the TCM system of channels and nodes – the same terms were applied slightly differently and with different emphasis. So Neidan was quite technical and secret because the terminology was opaque to those who were not initiated. However the main point is the creation of the Dan through 'alchemically' mixing inner substances and then processing it to produce an immortal body. This is quite different to qigong, although they are obviously related because they both deal in the three treasures for instance.

 

Okay! This part is very vague and illogical to me. I'd already explained my version using the three treasures. I had seen the same explanation online as the same as my version. As a matter of fact, that was where I had learnt it from.

[Apech]

44 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

As long as I see you mention breathing, I will accept that because it fits the modern native definition of Qigong! All the rest is immaterial.

 

OK.

 

If I may I'd like to elaborate a little about breath.

 

The external breath - that of air going into and out of the lungs is first.  Now, obviously the lungs are key and they are enclosed in the rib cage.  The top of the rig cage to maybe half (?) way down is fixed at the front at the sternum.  The lower ribs are not fixed and so can expand a little.  Beneath the lungs and across the body is the diaphragm, which is basically a muscle layer.  So all of external breathing occurs through the expansion of the the lower ribs and the up down movement of the diaphragm.  To breathe in requires no effort except opening the cavity of the lungs by allowing the diaphragm to push down slightly and the lower ribs move outward.  The air enters through atmospheric pressure and not by sucking.  So no effort,  just opening.  The out breath requires a slight push against the atmospheric pressure supplied by the contraction of the diaphragm.  Breathing should be smooth, unforced and silent.  Through the nostrils and not the mouth.  The mouth should be closed and the tongue touching the palette behind the teeth.

 

As the diaphragm moves up and down it gently massages the abdominal cavity and the organs in it - the stomach, the liver, the intestines, spleen, pancreas etc.  because of this there is a slight expansion and contraction of the belly.  But it is important to understand that you cannot breath through the movement of the tummy muscles - any movement here is just because everything is linked it is not the breath.  Of course there are exercises where you deliberately contract the belly but that is not really breathing.

 

The internal breath is more important.  When you are qi sensitive and you regulate the external breath and rest your unperturbed attention on your body (either generally or specifically on a certain part) the rhythm of the breath actives the qi.  You feel a pressure which builds on the in-breath and then circulates out on the out breath.  So the external breathing is linked directly to qi movement in this way.  If you do it just focusing on the body generally it feels like the whole body is breathing with an alternate expansion and contraction.  In the LDT and the MDT it feels like a churning (or that's what I would call it).  It is this breathing, qi breathing which many of the Daoist texts are referring to and not external breathing and hence some confusion.

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

The level of intensity with Neidan is quite different. Qigong is basically benign but Neidan can be dangerous if misapplied.

 

Did your teacher tell you why or what the dangerous part is if misapplied?

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

This is a very informative piece that all newbie should read.   It is just that I would like to add Neidan involves pre-natal Chi.   Purely work on the body like posture/thinking/breathing would not produce the transformative result.   By the way is it possible to disclose how did you come across that gentleman in England?

Yes I realise that all I am saying about Neidan is vague.

 

He was teaching art and calligraphy in a studio above a restaurant in Manchester China town.  I approached him about Tai Chi but he taught me qigong instead.

 

 

[Apech]

49 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Did your teacher tell you why or what the dangerous part is if misapplied?

You need someone more expert than me to go any further on that topic.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

38 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

The external breath - that of air going into and out of the lungs is first.  Now, obviously the lungs are key and they are enclosed in the rib cage. 

 

Please keep in mind that I am a retired engineer. For that said, I must deal with logic and facts to support any rationale.

I understand the mechanics of the respiratory system. However, I am having a problem understanding the difference between the external and internal breath. I don't see that we could say it in a similar way as external and internal in bleeding. 

 

You have a good explanation of the body mechanics with modern science. Something that the ancient Taoists did not have the luxury like we do. However, I have taken this luxury to go further in explaining it biologically using the cell respiration theory. That is where the oxygen and ATP energy come into the picture.

 

38 minutes ago, Apech said:

As the diaphragm moves up and down it gently massages the abdominal cavity and the organs in it -

 

The internal breath is more important.  

 

The description in the above quote is actually known as abdominal breathing.  Indeed, the internal breath is important. It goes into the biological aspect of cell respiration.  

[Apech]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Please keep in mind that I am a retired engineer. For that said, I must deal with logic and facts to support any rationale.

I understand the mechanics of the respiratory system. However, I am having a problem understanding the difference between the external and internal breath. I don't see that we could say it in a similar way as external and internal in bleeding. 

 

You have a good explanation of the body mechanics with modern science. Something that the ancient Taoists did not have the luxury like we do. However, I have taken this luxury to go further in explaining it biologically using the cell respiration theory. That is where the oxygen and ATP energy come into the picture.

 

 

The description in the above quote is actually known as abdominal breathing.  Indeed, the internal breath is important. It goes into the biological aspect of cell respiration.  

 
Yes I know it’s called abdominal breathing but I just wanted to explain that you don’t breathe with your abdomen.

[Antares]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Did your teacher tell you why or what the dangerous part is if misapplied?

 

Yin Yang imbalance, excessive fire in heart/liver, yuan jing dispersion, madness, also one can get very dumb if does sitting meditations too much without correct moving exercises, also blocks in some channels may occur and entities possession/attack

I heard about a guy who did correct methods but went mad

Another guy did correct methods and had Hindu God visitation who said to him to visit Sai Baba in India and he went there and quit Daoist practice 

Edited Friday at 07:03 PM by Antares

[ChiDragon]

31 minutes ago, Apech said:

 
Yes I know it’s called abdominal breathing but I just wanted to explain that you don’t breathe with your abdomen.

 

 Yes, it was understood that we do not breathe with the abdomen. The reason it was called abdominal breathing is that when we breathe in deeply, the abdomen is fully expanded. For those who didn't know, like the ancient Taoists, they saw the movement of the abdomen and thought it was doing all the breathing. The esoteric term was also called the Qigong breathing, LDT breathing, dantian breathing, and other various names.

Edited Friday at 07:14 PM by ChiDragon

[Antares]

8 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The esoteric term was also called the Qigong breathing, LDT breathing, dantian breathing, and other various names.

Mods, please move this thread to the "Esoteric and Occult Discussion"

Or to "Rabbit Hole" may be. BTW what they mean by Rabbit HOLE? 

[ChiDragon]

17 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

Yin Yang imbalance, excessive fire in heart/liver, yuan jing dispersion, madness, also one can get very dumb if does sitting meditations too much without correct moving exercises, also blocks in some channels may occur and entities possession/attack

I heard about a guy who did correct methods but went mad

Another guy did correct methods and had Hindu God visitation who said to him to visit Sai Baba in India and he went there and quit Daoist practice 

I see that you have heard some wild Taoist tales.

[Cobie]

 

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

…  what they mean by Rabbit HOLE? 

 

[Antares]

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I see that you have heard some wild Taoist tales.

If you are not Daoist what are you doing here then?

[Cobie]

.

Edited Friday at 07:40 PM by Cobie

[Antares]

11 hours ago, stirling said:

Dharma is made all of the time. I know a number of teachers I interact with that can supply you dharma as good (or better) than any sutra, and DO frequently. Why? Because they understand

I doubt that modern Buddhist understand, for example, what is Sambhogakaya and Dharmakaya. The second one they may be realize but what is the first one, you know it?  

[cake1234566]

 

24 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I see that you have heard some wild Taoist tales.

From a non energetic pov you can think of the dangers of neidan as stimulating the nervous system in ways that are harmful, getting stuck in psychological traps that keep you from following nature, or worsening of ego leading to mania

 

When you add in post natal and pre natal energy, you can see how incorrect practice can really do a number on someone

 

That being said though most people don't practice deeply enough for it to be dangerous at all i'd think, i found a forum one time of people practicing the "nen" system from the anime hunter x hunter, no symptoms of qi deviation there haha

[ChiDragon]

26 minutes ago, cake1234566 said:

When you add in post natal and pre natal energy, you can see how incorrect practice can really do a number on someone

What adding postnatal or prenatal energy are you talking about? I don't think you have the TCM definition down pad yet. Please try not to be an energymaniac.

Edited Friday at 08:12 PM by ChiDragon

[cake1234566]

Neidan definitions often don't allign with TCM definitions, ive been told that by a few teachers in the past explicitly

Nothing wrong with not believing in how those terms are used in neidan, just letting you know its apples and oranges lol

[Antares]

14 minutes ago, cake1234566 said:

Neidan definitions often don't allign with TCM definitions

Absolutely. Interesting what is ChiDragon' thought on the picture 

[ChiDragon]

24 minutes ago, cake1234566 said:

Neidan definitions often don't allign with TCM definitions, ive been told that by a few teachers in the past explicitly

Nothing wrong with not believing in how those terms are used in neidan, just letting you know its apples and oranges lol

 

Where did you get that idea? How did you come up with the logic like that? Yeah, one is talking about apples and the other is talking about oranges. Right on! 

 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

19 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

one is talking about apples and the other is talking about oranges. 

 

When a horrific crime happens, do you think 正氣內存, 邪不可干 could have prevented the crime if the perpretator and/or the victim really embodied the concept? 

 

[Cobie]

 

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

How do you cultivate 命？What is 命 to you?

 

@DynamicEquilibrium could you please answer the question from your heart in one line.

 

 

Edited Friday at 09:58 PM by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

18 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

When a horrific crime happens, do you think 正氣內存, 邪不可干 could have prevented the crime if the perpretator and/or the victim really embodied the concept? 

 

Yes, 邪不勝正.

Edited Friday at 10:03 PM by ChiDragon