Apech Posted 23 hours ago 4 hours ago, S:C said: My comment was directed at perception / observation and interpretation thereof in general concerning the thread topic. It might have been better to have asked, if ‘magical’ isn’t always an ‘subjective interpretation’? When one feels ‘in sync’ with natural surroundings an inside feeling might coincide with outside happenings. Some would ascribe this to religion or alike, if a God Beeing is missing in their worldview. E.g. when it starts to snow when it hasn’t in a while and that falls into place with a feeling you haven’t had for a long time. Or recognizing a double rainbow at an ancient place above you after an emotional experience. I’m very sorry you took my comment personal, that wasn’t intended. I just reflected upon own observations, and you and Cobie might scould me (again) for being so unobservant to other’s possible experience and perceptions. Apologies! And thanks for clarifying: I wasn’t aware the sincere traditional Buddhists are as ‘playful’ as to consider such a subjective interpretation of events as their path. I always thought they were foremost going for ‘objectivity’ or oneness without suffering. Not personal peace with another person through connection. But that was indeed an element I hadn’t thought about. If that is indeed a solid traditional interpretation of what this branch of Buddhism is about, I am glad to know that now. So Vajrayana is a special way of subjective ‘connecting’ and interpreting? I might pm you about this question as it strays from the topic, even if it were a ancient tradition thereof. No need to apologise ... all is in the spirit of good natured conversation as far as I am concerned. I will answer your PM. I don't want to talk too much about vajrayana on this thread because as you say the topic is Chaos Magic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted 19 hours ago 14 hours ago, Sanity Check said: (They would consider it leaning too much on one's own understanding of things.) Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. -Proverbs 3:5 Not what I thought you might say. Huh. Seems an complex reason, when rites and rituals are absolutely part of many Christian ceremonies but, I'm no expert. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 14 hours ago 14 hours ago, Sanity Check said: What is going on with me? What is going on with you is what you posted . Its one of your mottos and you posted it when you got stuck in the corner of your own argument that turned out to be silly and irrational .... to wit : Proverbs 3;5 that is Dont lean on your own understanding but trust the Lord with all your heart ... that is ; dont try to understand just trust the Lord .... which is what you do and claim to do But when you point it out you dont even seem to know what you yourself are saying . ( thats something 'going on with you' as well . ) 14 hours ago, Sanity Check said: Its only basic evolution. Nothing you need ever worry your silly head about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 14 hours ago 4 hours ago, stirling said: Not what I thought you might say. Huh. Seems an complex reason, when rites and rituals are absolutely part of many Christian ceremonies but, I'm no expert. One is to partake of those rites .... but need not understand , well, anything . Its the 'christian refuge' when out of their depth in religious conversation , ie, logic and reason are tools of the devil ... to tempt one away from 'faith in God' . The original idea was probably 'dont try to understand God ' .... not 'dont try to understand anything ' . .. it takes a 'special sort of Christian ' to make that leap from one to the other Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted 10 hours ago 4 hours ago, Nungali said: What is going on with you is what you posted . Its one of your mottos and you posted it when you got stuck in the corner of your own argument that turned out to be silly and irrational .... to wit : Proverbs 3;5 that is Dont lean on your own understanding but trust the Lord with all your heart ... that is ; dont try to understand just trust the Lord .... which is what you do and claim to do But when you point it out you dont even seem to know what you yourself are saying . ( thats something 'going on with you' as well . ) Its a fine line between not leaning too much on ones own knowledge. And yet following Noah's example by building an Ark to save thyself from future floods & crisis looming on the horizon. The problem with "lean not on thy own understanding" is its anti intellectual slant. Many use it as an excuse to justify intellectual laziness. Which is a distortion and crookedness of the original intent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 8 hours ago 2 hours ago, Sanity Check said: Its a fine line between not leaning too much on ones own knowledge. That is why we learn off others as well and learn from different sources other than some weird mix of Bible and pop culture . Like Historians , archaeologists , Lamas , Monks , Buddhas , our peers , friends and those with actual experience . AND if we 'know how to learn' that then becomes 'one's own knowledge ' .... so , what is one actually 'leaning on ' ? 2 hours ago, Sanity Check said: And yet following Noah's example by building an Ark to save thyself from future floods & crisis looming on the horizon. Save ....... thyself .... 2 hours ago, Sanity Check said: The problem with "lean not on thy own understanding" is its anti intellectual slant. Many use it as an excuse to justify intellectual laziness. Which is a distortion and crookedness of the original intent. So , why did ..... thyself ..... do it then ? Why did you 'lean on' your own understanding' that Jurassic park influenced Chaos Magick when a flotilla of actual influences were presented to you ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted 7 hours ago 2 minutes ago, Nungali said: That is why we learn off others as well and learn from different sources other than some weird mix of Bible and pop culture . Like Historians , archaeologists , Lamas , Monks , Buddhas , our peers , friends and those with actual experience . AND if we 'know how to learn' that then becomes 'one's own knowledge ' .... so , what is one actually 'leaning on ' ? Save ....... thyself .... So , why did ..... thyself ..... do it then ? Why did you 'lean on' your own understanding' that Jurassic park influenced Chaos Magick when a flotilla of actual influences were presented to you ? Well, if you try to save others, you might realize they don't want to be saved. Not without a long list of impossible pre conditions they require to be met. So in a sense, better to focus on thyself. I never gave up on anyone. But many appear to have given up on themselves. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted 7 hours ago 31 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: if you try to save others, you might realize they don't want to be saved. Yesterday I was looking at an internet friend who had complained about spiritual difficulties. I could see a blockage in his heart chakra ( half-way up the personal heart) so I pulled on it, but he would not release the blockage. Later he posted that he had unresolved anger. Hopefully he will deal with those relationships Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 7 hours ago 23 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: Well, if you try to save others, you might realize they don't want to be saved. The people I helped save were grateful . It seems you have had a different experience and assume somehow that must apply to me as well . But its also probably that , I actually help save them from accidents or death or precarious situations , or being outcast , not having shelter or support , etc . Maybe you were proselytizing at them ie 'saved' in that 'unique' Christian sense . Then its probably not a case of them 'not wanting to be saved ' , but wanting you to stop trying to convert them to your own belief system 23 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: Not without a long list of impossible pre conditions they require to be met. No, I didnt find that either , again, they were grateful for the meager support I could give them . 23 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: So in a sense, better to focus on thyself. There is that 'thyself' again . Nothing like 'good old fashioned Bible speak ' to drive a point home However , it is an unusual 'sense' for one who claims to follow the teaching of Jesus Luke 10:30 ' In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he thought too bad buddy .... I'm lookin after myself ! . “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who focused on himself .” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” 23 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: I never gave up on anyone. But many appear to have given up on themselves. That is for a reason and there is a remedy . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 7 hours ago 4 minutes ago, Lairg said: Yesterday I was looking at an internet friend who had complained about spiritual difficulties. I could see a blockage in his heart chakra ( half-way up the personal heart) so I pulled on it, but he would not release the blockage. Did you ask their permission first ? 4 minutes ago, Lairg said: Later he posted that he had unresolved anger. Hopefully he will deal with those relationships Maybe if you didnt, thats why he got angry . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted 4 hours ago (edited) 2 hours ago, Nungali said: The people I helped save were grateful . It seems you have had a different experience and assume somehow that must apply to me as well . But its also probably that , I actually help save them from accidents or death or precarious situations , or being outcast , not having shelter or support , etc . Maybe you were proselytizing at them ie 'saved' in that 'unique' Christian sense . Then its probably not a case of them 'not wanting to be saved ' , but wanting you to stop trying to convert them to your own belief system No, I didnt find that either , again, they were grateful for the meager support I could give them . When I say people don't want to be saved. What I mean is everything people are unhappy about in the world right now could have been prevented 20 years ago. And no one was interested. They all thought it was a terrible idea and didn't see the value in it. From where do I get this impression of history? Because I was naive and idealistic enough to try. Quote There is that 'thyself' again . Nothing like 'good old fashioned Bible speak ' to drive a point home However , it is an unusual 'sense' for one who claims to follow the teaching of Jesus Luke 10:30 ' In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he thought too bad buddy .... I'm lookin after myself ! . “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who focused on himself .” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” I get the impression you're missing a few things in your retelling of the good samaritan. "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free." -John 8:32 For people to have freedom and be saved, they must make an effort to be literate and acquire knowledge. Without literacy and knowledge, they may always remain enslaved to some degree or another. This is where the real conflict and source of slavery is found and will eventually will be overcome. But have you ever observed the behavior of people? Despite living in a world where science and technology have greatly elevated their own standard of living. People still treat facts and science as if these things were entirely useless to them. Its like... "why do I have to learn this math shit in school"? "This math was only used to put astronauts on the moon and build microwave ovens. Why am I being oppressed by having to learn this stuff that is completely useless?!" I think about israelites in the bible who have God living in their midst having similar attitudes. Despite having direct evidence God is powerful and real they still act as if God is entirely useless and irrelevant to them. The same way that modern people view science, math and facts as being utterly useless despite enjoying benefits of smartphones, teslas, lithium batteries and a long list of things that have greatly made life better. In that sense if people ever truly wish to be saved, they will have to rethink their lives a little. Quote That is for a reason and there is a remedy . Yeah. And the remedy is if there isn't much that can be done for others. There may be much that can be done for oneself. If I observe others and have the impression others make sub optimal choices. Then I should work harder to make choices that are more optimal by my own standards. If I observe others and have the impression they take for granted things like math and science. Then I should work harder to be more about science and math. That's all. It doesn't imply greed or self centeredness the way you think it does. Its moreso the futility of attempting to help or change others. Just believe others are smart and make good decisions and trust them to get things right. Edited 4 hours ago by Sanity Check Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 4 hours ago (edited) 27 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: When I say people don't want to be saved. What I mean is everything people are unhappy about in the world right now could have been prevented 20 years ago. And no one was interested. They all thought it was a terrible idea and didn't see the value in it. From where do I get this impression of history? Because I was naive and idealistic enough to try. An empty unspecified claim .... again ! Quote I get the impression you're missing a few things in your retelling of the good samaritan. Its the new 'look after yourself ' redaction . Quote "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free." -John 8:32 For people to have freedom and be saved, they must make an effort to be literate and acquire knowledge. Without literacy and knowledge, they may always remain enslaved to some degree or another. Well of course as everyone has some knowledge . All humans do . I suppose you are thinking of some special privileged or level of knowledge that makes some 'better ' than others . Quote This is where the real conflict and source of slavery is found and will eventually will be overcome. But have you ever observed the behavior of people? Is that a serious question ..... to someone that has said they study anthropology . Quote Despite living in a world where science and technology have greatly elevated their own standard of living. People still treat facts and science as if these things were entirely useless to them.. Its getting weirder , since you have constantly been arguing silly and irreverent things yourself with people here that offer facts from science and technology . So I would say you and these 'people' ( whoever they are , aside from you ) are in the minority while the others , which all of a sudden have become invisible to you or ceased to exist, are in the majority . Quote Its like... "why do I have to learn this math shit in school"? "This math was only used to put astronauts on the moon and build microwave ovens. Why am I being oppressed by having to learn this stuff that is completely useless?!" I think about israelites in the bible who have God living in their midst having similar attitudes. Despite having direct evidence God is powerful and real they still act as if God is entirely useless and irrelevant to them. Perhaps like me , they never saw such evidence of power and reality ? Quote The same way that modern people view science, math and facts as being utterly useless despite enjoying benefits of smartphones, teslas, lithium batteries and a long list of things that have greatly made life better. No it isnt 'the same way ' - there you go with those bizarre 'Biblical comparisons ' again . Quote In that sense if people ever truly wish to be saved, they will have to rethink their lives a little. Yeah. And the remedy is if there isn't much that can be done for others. There may be much that can be done for oneself. If I observe others and have the impression others make sub optimal choices. Then I should work harder to make choices that are more optimal by my own standards. If I observe others and have the impression they take for granted things like math and science. Then I should work harder to be more about science and math. Go on then . Quote That's all. It doesn't imply greed or self centeredness the way you think it does. Its moreso the futility of attempting to help or change others. Just believe others are smart and make good decisions and trust them to get things right. Like your leader over there ? . Edited 3 hours ago by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted 1 hour ago 2 hours ago, Nungali said: Well of course as everyone has some knowledge . All humans do . I suppose you are thinking of some special privileged or level of knowledge that makes some 'better ' than others . 2 hours ago, Nungali said: Its getting weirder , since you have constantly been arguing silly and irreverent things yourself with people here that offer facts from science and technology . So I would say you and these 'people' ( whoever they are , aside from you ) are in the minority while the others , which all of a sudden have become invisible to you or ceased to exist, are in the majority . Oh? Am I saying "silly" and "irrelevant" things? If our exchange here was shown to 12 year old kids in school. Do you think there are any 12 year olds who would view your responses as resembling something smart? All you've done from beginning to end is spam weak straw men silliness. Is your goal to spam inaccurate remarks in an effort to make yourself appear less intelligent than you actually are. Or is that your actual level? Your stance here is baffling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
