Yes-But-Mind vs. Don't-Know-Mind

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

"Why?" implies some past or future,

 

My own view is that before during and after Existence is Beingness.   Could Beingness have purpose for generating universes?

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

it is only the thinking mind that contrives ideas of "purpose" or meaning beyond what is visible right here, right now.

 

In some traditions there are many planes/dimensions beyond mind

 

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

"Why?" implies some past or future, or someone to exist within a timeline. It is worth examining whether any continuity truly exists in this moment. Meditation (not a practice but actual stillness of the mind) would be the tool for this. 

 

 

See above. This moment is perfect and complete as it is, it is only the thinking mind that contrives ideas of "purpose" or meaning beyond what is visible right here, right now.

 

then again the historic Buddha did speak of meaning as being important.  

[Lairg]

I have read that when considering an event, identify its:

 

- form

- meaning

- significance

 

Identification of significance requires a broad perception

 

What is the significance of this universe?

 

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

My own view is that before during and after Existence is Beingness.   Could Beingness have purpose for generating universes?

 

 

In some traditions there are many planes/dimensions beyond mind

 

 

 

'Beingness '   ...  that has no existence  ?        

[bradley]

14 hours ago, Lairg said:

Why does Existence occur?

 

Does the enlightened/transparent human have some role in Existence achieving its purposes?

 

Pralaya (Sanskrit: प्रलय, romanized: Pralaya, lit. 'Destruction') is a concept in Hindu eschatology. Generally referring to four different phenomena,^[1][2][3] it is most commonly used to indicate the event of the dissolution of the entire universe that follows a kalpa (a period of 4.32 billion years) called the Brahmapralaya.

 

I don't know.

 

I do appreciate your perspectives and views, though.  There are so many ways to approach living, and at least from my perspective, it does not really matter which approach one takes, so long as it is done with a kind and open heart.  There are so many incredible people from all sorts of different traditions out there.  I met the most wonderful fellow from kurdistan at a coffee shop today. He was a christian and would not stop talking about his love of god, and the kindness he sees in everyone he meets wherever he goes.  It made my day.  I dont think any one tradition can claim a monopoly on the answers to existential questions nor "enlightenment" in general.  To me enlightenment is more like a sparkle that you can just see in peoples eyes when you speak with them.  Ive come to realize that I don't really need to know the answers to existential or metaphysical questions to live a meaningful and fulfilling life.  I just have to be.  That's why I liked the video.  I do find esoteric approaches and ideas interesting though, and sometimes try them out, hopefully with the same spirit of "just being".  That is why I also like reading yours and others perspectives.      

[stirling]

15 hours ago, Lairg said:

My own view is that before during and after Existence is Beingness.

 

Depending on what one might mean by "Existence" I would agree. In my definition, the existence of things and concepts we give the status of "separate" appear and disappear moment to moment. "Beingness", in my definition would be the simple presence of pure awareness that is underneath all thinking and doing by a "self". Brings to mind:

 

Quote

You see yourself in the world while I see the world in myself. To you, you get born and die; while to me, the world appears and disappears. - Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

From the perspective of enlightenment the phenomenal world can be both peopled by separate things and beings of various types or completely still and unitary, depending on which perspective one looks from. The unitary stillness is always present underneath the world of separateness.  This is what Maharaj is pointing at. 

 

15 hours ago, Lairg said:

Could Beingness have purpose for generating universes?

 

The panoply of observed phenomena DO arise from the unity/emptiness. I wouldn't go as far as saying it is any kind of purpose. It is just what happens. 

 

15 hours ago, Lairg said:

In some traditions there are many planes/dimensions beyond mind.

 

There are many ways of seeing the seemingly external world, but they are always right here, in my experience. There is nothing beyond, or somewhere else. Enlightenment always happens here,  in this moment. There is nothing to do but stop fabricating your version of the outside world and rest in it, if you want to recognize it.

 

Quote

In July of the same year I was staying at Tiantongshan when the tenzo (cook) of Ayuwang shan came to see me and said, "After the summer Training Period is over I'm going to retire as tenzo and go back to my native region. I heard from a fellow monk that you were here and so I came to see how you were making out."

 

I was overjoyed. I served him tea as we sat down to talk. When I brought up our discussion on the relationship about words and practice, the tenzo said, "If you want to understand words you must look into what words are. If you want to practice, you must understand what practice is."

 

I asked, "What are words?"

 

The tenzo said, "One, two, three, four, five."

 

I asked again, "What is practice?"

"Everywhere, nothing is hidden."

 

- Instructions for the Tenzo by Eihei Dogen

 

[stirling]

14 hours ago, old3bob said:

then again the historic Buddha did speak of meaning as being important.  

 

Anywhere you were thinking of specifically?

[Tommy]

I have to wonder ... say the experiment of the double slit where a single light source travels past a double slit. The initial result is that there are light and dark patterns which form on the back screen. It is a pattern of wave interference. When the source was changed to an electron gun, where electron particle was sent past the double slit, the experimenter expected to see two bright bands. Instead, the pattern for light waves appeared. Somehow the single electrons form a wave pattern on the back screen. Then when the experimenter watched the electrons go past the double slit, a pattern of two bright band appeared. So, it seemed that the simple observation of the electrons changed the results. This makes me think question, does sitting quietly in meditation, observing, change something fundamental in consciousness? Can the act of observation make the universe behave in a different manner?

 

Sorry, for the side track. My mind tends to lead me off to neverland.

 

Note: The emptiness or don't know mind, when observed, does it change anything?

Edited Tuesday at 09:10 PM by Tommy

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Can the act of observation make the universe behave in a different manner?

 

It may be that the observer's intent is the vector that changes the universe

 

 

 

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Tommy said:

This makes me think question, does sitting quietly in meditation, observing, change something fundamental in consciousness? Can the act of observation make the universe behave in a different manner?

 

Absolutely. Our story about the world (our karma) changes how we see it. The world, for example, is a fundamentally different place to a true optimist. Try this: In the morning, put a genuine smile on your face and walk through the world with that smile, greeting people with it, and allowing it to warm your view of the world. Ask yourself at the end of the day how it was.

 

Quote

Then the venerable Sariputra said to the Brahma Sikhin, "As for me, O Brahma, I see this great earth, with its highs and lows, its thorns, its precipices, its peaks, and its abysses, as if it were entirely filled with ordure."

 

Brahma Sikhin replied, "The fact that you see such a buddha-field as this as if it were so impure, reverend Sariputra, is a sure sign that there are highs and lows in your mind and that your positive thought in regard to the buddha-gnosis is not pure either. Reverend Sariputra, those whose minds are impartial toward all living beings and whose positive thoughts toward the buddha-gnosis are pure see this buddha-field as perfectly pure."

 

Thereupon the Lord touched the ground of this billion-world-galactic universe with his big toe, and suddenly it was transformed into a huge mass of precious jewels, a magnificent array of many hundreds of thousands of clusters of precious gems, until it resembled the universe of the Tathagata Ratnavyuha, called Anantagunaratnavyuha. 

 

Everyone in the entire assembly was filled with wonder, each perceiving himself seated on a throne of jeweled lotuses.

Then, the Buddha said to the venerable Sariputra, "Sariputra, do you see this splendor of the virtues of the buddha-field?"

Sariputra replied, "I see it, Lord! Here before me is a display of splendor such as I never before heard of or beheld!"

 

The Buddha said, "Sariputra, this buddha-field is always thus pure, but the Tathagata makes it appear to be spoiled by many faults, in order to bring about the maturity of the inferior living beings. For example, Sariputra, the gods of the Trayastrimsa heaven all take their food from a single precious vessel, yet the nectar which nourishes each one differs according to the differences of the merits each has accumulated. Just so, Sariputra, living beings born in the same buddha-field see the splendor of the virtues of the buddha-fields of the Buddhas according to their own degrees of purity." - Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra

 

How deep is your "purity"? How deep is your set of beliefs, attachments, aversions, and story about the reality of how things are?

 

3 hours ago, Tommy said:

Note: The emptiness or don't know mind, when observed, does it change anything?

 

No. It is seeing the world with something LESS. Done correctly it is seeing the world without your story about it. It is being in alignment with what is happening, and therefore ends our struggle (a better definition of "suffering").

[Nungali]

 

 

The act of observation causing the Universe to behave in a different manner :  

 

 

 

.

Edited 22 hours ago by Nungali

[old3bob]

10 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Anywhere you were thinking of specifically?

 

do the teachings of the historic Buddha have meaning to you?

[Forestgreen]

Holding their breath, the crowd surrounding him awaits a quotation that supports his statement.

[SodaChanh]

On 17.11.2025 at 10:41 AM, bradley said:

I think the point of the video was that by ceasing to seek answers to esoteric questions, one is free to be what one is.    

 

Exactly, this is freedom. 

[Lairg]

And yet  most people prefer to navigate with at least a map

 

 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

do the teachings of the historic Buddha have meaning to you?

 

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

Holding their breath, the crowd surrounding him awaits a quotation that supports his statement.

 

Meaning is an imputation devised by the thinking mind. It belongs to "YOU". Buddhism (like all other traditions) is a vehicle to realize something BEYOND conceptualization and the thinking mind. The vehicles themselves are empty of meaning, and ultimately NOT the realization.

 

Some quotations might be fun! 

 

Quote

"The trouble with students these days is that they seize on words and form their understanding on that basis. In a big notebook they copy down the sayings of some worthless old fellow, wrapping it up in three layers, five layers of carrying cloth, not letting anyone else see it, calling it the 'Dark Meaning' and guarding it as something precious. What a mistake! Blind fools, what sort of juice do they expect to get out of old dried bones?" - Lin-Chi, Ch'an Master, 7th Ct.

 

Quote

“The awakened mind is turned upside down and does not accord even with the Buddha-wisdom.” - Hui Hai

 

Realization only comes from EXPERIENTIAL gnosis. No amount of intellectual fabrication can get you there. Stop where you are. Allow the mind to be come still - here and now is where understanding happens. 

[stirling]

5 minutes ago, Lairg said:

And yet  most people prefer to navigate with at least a map.

 

A map to where? Does anyone really need a map to here?

[Lairg]

If Existence has no purpose then no map is required and intelligent beings can do whatever they want

 

If Existence has a purpose then there will be guardrails to keep intelligent beings within due bounds.  Karma is an obvious example

 

 Sometimes it is better to cooperate with the river that flows to the cosmic ocean

 

 

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

A map to where? Does anyone really need a map to here?

 

transcendental type ramblings and throwing the baby out with the bath water,  what the hell? 

Edited 12 hours ago by old3bob

[stirling]

6 hours ago, Lairg said:

If Existence has no purpose then no map is required and intelligent beings can do whatever they want

 

...assuming we accept the proposition that beings have "self" nature.

 

6 hours ago, Lairg said:

Sometimes it is better to cooperate with the river that flows to the cosmic ocean

 

Absolutely! The way to cooperate is to be transparent and without resistance as though you are not apart from it at all, in my understanding.

[stirling]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

transcendental type ramblings and throwing the baby out with the bath water,  what the hell? 

 

Oh no... the baby and the bath water?!?! I must have stepped in it again.  I assure you that what I am saying belongs here, and I am sorry if I have disturbed you. 

 

The topic of this thread is a Zen expression, "don't know mind", that is a conceptual description of the mind clear, still, and ready for anything, arrived at by allow the mind to come to a stop. It isn't a practice, concept, or religious belief  (a baby in the bath water) it is precisely the lack of ANY effort or contrivance of the mind. It is mind "as it is", arrived at by allowing to come to a stop of its own accord. It is simply being enlightened mind in this moment. It is dropping process, technique and maps completely and finding enlightenment in this moment, if only temporarily. This is the essence of Zen. 

 

This is the concept of the "Gateless Gate", the title of a famous collection of koans, and subject of many spiritual quotes. The lesson of them is that true understanding or enlightenment is not a destination to be reached by passing through a physical or mental barrier, but an experience that transcends thought, "self", religion, practices, and fabrication. The title is a paradox: a gate that is no gate at all. A gate that you desperately wish to pass through, but can realize that you have always been inside of. It is a metaphor that appears again and again in non-dual traditions.

 

Quote

“I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door.

 

It opens.

 

I’ve been knocking from the inside!”

 

- Rumi

 

 

Quote

The Great Way has no gate.

There are a thousand paths to it.

If you pass through the barrier

you walk the universe alone."

- Wu Men

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Oh no... the baby and the bath water?!?! I must have stepped in it again.  I assure you that what I am saying belongs here, and I am sorry if I have disturbed you. 

 

The topic of this thread is a Zen expression, "don't know mind", that is a conceptual description of the mind clear, still, and ready for anything, arrived at by allow the mind to come to a stop. It isn't a practice, concept, or religious belief  (a baby in the bath water) it is precisely the lack of ANY effort or contrivance of the mind. It is mind "as it is", arrived at by allowing to come to a stop of its own accord. It is simply being enlightened mind in this moment. It is dropping process, technique and maps completely and finding enlightenment in this moment, if only temporarily. This is the essence of Zen. 

 

This is the concept of the "Gateless Gate", the title of a famous collection of koans, and subject of many spiritual quotes. The lesson of them is that true understanding or enlightenment is not a destination to be reached by passing through a physical or mental barrier, but an experience that transcends thought, "self", religion, practices, and fabrication. The title is a paradox: a gate that is no gate at all. A gate that you desperately wish to pass through, but can realize that you have always been inside of. It is a metaphor that appears again and again in non-dual traditions.

 

 

thus a contrivance of non-contrivance or bypassing,  many here could also state or quote all sorts of transcendent stuff but such doesn't really cut it...and which can be dangerous for new and even some advanced students.  

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, stirling said:

 

A map to where? Does anyone really need a map to here?

 

Sure they do .... some of them  ;  

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Nungali

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Lairg said:

If Existence has no purpose then no map is required and intelligent beings can do whatever they want 

 

'Existence'    ... by itself - 'pure existence' ...  is a state .  When you are in that 'certain state ' , there is nothing else . When you are not in that state , you might link purpose to it .   But even more so , pure existence , beyond and without 'you' has no purpose . 

 

It is something that 'is'   which might be all we can say about it .   And its not conceptualized by the mind ... which might be a challenge to one that is very 'mental' ... even to the extent they feel they can 'mentalise the cosmos '  so much that they refer to  fellow humans as something 'other'  than them in  their  own speaking mental perspective . 

 

 

 

Quote

 

If Existence has a purpose then there will be guardrails to keep intelligent beings within due bounds.  Karma is an obvious example

 

An obvious example of what ?   You just made your own 'if' postulation  and then based a premise on your if and then gave an example of your premise .

 

Which says nothing  about nor counters the idea that  Existence has no purpose . 

 

Quote

 

 Sometimes it is better to cooperate with the river that flows to the cosmic ocean

 

 

..... and that too 'just happens ' ... without purpose . 

 

What you might be confused with is the resultant benefits we get from it .

 

Some might say that is its purpose ... to benefit us  .... to that, I say ......      

Edited 5 hours ago by Nungali

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Oh no... the baby and the bath water?!?! I must have stepped in it again.  I assure you that what I am saying belongs here, and I am sorry if I have disturbed you. 

 

The topic of this thread is a Zen expression, "don't know mind", that is a conceptual description of the mind clear, still, and ready for anything, arrived at by allow the mind to come to a stop. It isn't a practice, concept, or religious belief  (a baby in the bath water) it is precisely the lack of ANY effort or contrivance of the mind. It is mind "as it is", arrived at by allowing to come to a stop of its own accord. It is simply being enlightened mind in this moment. It is dropping process, technique and maps completely and finding enlightenment in this moment, if only temporarily. This is the essence of Zen. 

 

And correct mental attitude for  sword  work