Yes-But-Mind vs. Don't-Know-Mind

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

the act of breathing brings a spirit or spiritual sense?

 

Spirit penetrates all Existence.  So doing anything within Existence with attention on Spirit, allows both physical and spiritual changes to occur.

 

For example, breathing in while intending to draw in Spirit, increases the amount of Spirit in the human light-body (aura) and thus the physical body too.

 

A common example is that "mother's cooking is best".  Traditionally the mother was intent on proper nourishment of the family beyond the physical.  The result was that the mother's love penetrated the food as an increased flow of Spirit

 

One might conclude that the good-hearted human has a natural authority to draw increased flows of Spirit. 

[Keith108]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

I thank you for your reply and trying to help me understand. Still, I remain confused with all this as my mind doesn't see these complexities. Saying that breath or the act of breathing is in part spiritual, leaves me wondering if actions turn into portions of ourselves. The actions of the mind to sense conditions brings an uprising of emotions. So, the act of breathing brings a spirit or spiritual sense? My head spins with all these thoughts and ideas. So, let me just say thank you for your efforts to let me understand. And let's just say that I don't get it and probably never will.

 

When Quantum mechanics says that anything can come from from the nothingness of space, I can understand that. But, when one states that breath or watching breath is a spiritual act, my mind freezes. One can say that one is on a spiritual path. However, it seems to me that it is only the real path to follow. All others returns to the beginning. When one says that two quantum objects can share the same information at the same time even though they may be light years apart thru quantum entanglement, okay, I get that but don't understand how since it is faster than the speed of light. So, yeah, I read your words and as I read they make sense. But, how it relates to me, there is a chasm. Still I thank you for trying.

Hi Tommy

 

I can assure you my friend, I am not trying to help you to understand anything. Understanding won't help you. 

 

Breathing is just breathing, It isn't a spiritual act, unless we just go ahead and call every act a spiritual act. 

 

Zen isn't a philosophical pursuit. Any philosophical explanations point at something, but aren't the thing. That thing has to be awakened to and digested through direct experience.

 

When the head is spinning with thoughts, look at that.

Who is thinking?

Where do these thoughts come from?

Are they "mine"?

Are they inside? or outside? or neither?

 

Only go straight, don't know. 

 

_/|\_

Keith 

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

Spirit penetrates all Existence.  So doing anything within Existence with attention on Spirit, allows both physical and spiritual changes to occur.

I personally do not know how the spirit would penetrate all existence since I have found no such thing in myself. Some have mentioned that they can travel thru the astral planes. Guessing that might have something to do with the spirit. For me, I do not have such experiences. And so, I do not see, feel, or grok that there is such a thing as spirit. This not to say there isn't a spirit. Just that for me, it doesn't exist. I live and breathe. Wake up in the morning, cook myself a meal, boil water for coffee. What life is, it is in front of me. When I read the saying before enlightenment, chop wood  carry water. after enlightenment, chop wood carry water, the question arises what changed?.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

after enlightenment, chop wood carry water, the question arises what changed?

 

Enlightenment literally means that the Light of Spirit flows easily through the human.

 

When the Light flows easily, the human can be used by Spirit and Spirit can delegate some local decisions to the human

 

You may recall something along the line of :  When you have seen me you have seen the Father, for I live in Him and He lives in me

 

 

[Keith108]

10 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Enlightenment literally means that the Light of Spirit flows easily through the human.

 

When the Light flows easily, the human can be used by Spirit and Spirit can delegate some local decisions to the human

 

You may recall something along the line of :  When you have seen me you have seen the Father, for I live in Him and He lives in me

 

 

Perhaps. But, since this is a thread in the Buddhist Discussion forum, enlightenment in the Buddhist sense is simply moving from incorrect view to correct view. That is, awakening to reality as it is, not as seen from the view of a separate self or spirit.  

 

The Chinese character for "Buddha" is translated as "awakened person". Even that isn't correct though, as the concept of a "person" is erroneous. 

 

_/|\_

 

[Keith108]

1 hour ago, Keith108 said:

Perhaps. But, since this is a thread in the Buddhist Discussion forum, enlightenment in the Buddhist sense is simply moving from incorrect view to correct view. That is, awakening to reality as it is, not as seen from the view of a separate self or spirit.  

 

The Chinese character for "Buddha" is translated as "awakened person". Even that isn't correct though, as the concept of a "person" is erroneous. 

 

_/|\_

 

Haha! I think I just did a "yes, but" !

[Lairg]

7 hours ago, Keith108 said:

since this is a thread in the Buddhist Discussion forum, enlightenment in the Buddhist sense is simply moving from incorrect view to correct view

 

Religion is wonderful

 

For myself I prefer metaphysical experiments

 

 

[Keith108]

28 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

Religion is wonderful

 

For myself I prefer metaphysical experiments

 

 

 

Wonderful!

 

Buddhist practice is a kind of experiment, isn't it? There is the experiment of practice, the result of which must be directly experienced, no faith in a higher power required. Just sit down, be quiet, and see what happens. What am I? Don't know............ 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Tommy said:

I personally do not know how the spirit would penetrate all existence since I have found no such thing in myself.

 

Spirit is a term that can mean many things  though , so no wonder this dynamic is happening . If Lairg or anyone else thinks spirit is a ghost like / astral replica of the self  and then tries to convince you that you have one  ... that would be insisting a wide definition is narrow and pertains to you ... in short, its a projection of opinion on to you .

 

I had an issue when teaching year 10 at a Steiner School , by year 10 they over 'spirit' as they had been 'taught' so much varied and opinionated  and  insistent BS about it . The moment I first mentioned the word there was a loud vocal rebellion    

 

Spirit can also be an essence  ... the essence of the 'essential  you '  , its in there amidst all the conditioning and programming . o one could look at spirit that way , and go on a 'spiritual quest ' regarding that .

 

regarding spirit interpenetrating all existence , one could explain that via hermetic theory , but I dont think that is what you are chasing here .

 

20 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

Some have mentioned that they can travel thru the astral planes. Guessing that might have something to do with the spirit. For me, I do not have such experiences. And so, I do not see, feel, or grok that there is such a thing as spirit. This not to say there isn't a spirit. Just that for me, it doesn't exist.

 

Or, you feel different about it  compared to what others insist it is    

 

20 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

I live and breathe. Wake up in the morning, cook myself a meal, boil water for coffee. What life is, it is in front of me. When I read the saying before enlightenment, chop wood  carry water. after enlightenment, chop wood carry water, the question arises what changed?.

 

Fpr me , my saying is ;    I spent a lot of time chopping wood and carrying water ... but then I got 'civilized' , so i dont have to do that any more , now I spend a lot of time fixing and maintaining the chainsaw and water pump   . 

 

Another meaning is    after 'enlightenment '  dont 'give up your life' ... continue your life - in an enlightened manner .  In many eastern systems - isolation and / or  aestheticism  is advocated after 'enlightenment ' but in other systems , eg , some Sufi system if you are a builder ( for example ) after enlightenment you are a Master / better / enlightened builder . 

 

In some cycles of western initiation you end up at the 'level' that you started at  ... yet something has been gained along the way to make one somehow different . We can assume, I think, that what is gained is experience  ( which can include knowledge, practice, insight, intuition , etc ... perhaps even understanding and wisdom   - in short ,  a way of functioning from a more enlightened or illumined perspective .

 

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

Spirit can also be an essence  ... the essence of the 'essential  you '  , its in there amidst all the conditioning and programming . o one could look at spirit that way , and go on a 'spiritual quest ' regarding that .

 

regarding spirit interpenetrating all existence , one could explain that via hermetic theory , but I dont think that is what you are chasing here .

 

 

Or, you feel different about it  compared to what others insist it is    

Long ago, when I first came to daobums, you made a response post which really annoyed me. And I have seen where others have had the same reaction. I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what others say. It only matter how one reacts to others. I can only control myself. So, after having said this, I thank you for your reply.

 

To say that my spirit is the essence of me?? I don't see it. As I have been knocked out, know there is nothing of me that exist outside of my body. Drink alcohol and my mind becomes affected. There is nothing I sense or feel or grok that is outside of this body. And so, what essence would there be? It is like people tell me there is a God. Sure. Okay, then how do I know this? How do I find my God? No visions or acts to show God. Some people who have had near death experiences say there is a God and so on and so forth. Personally, I don't see it. Maybe someday if I ever experience Kensho. Or have a near death experience.

 

Lets see, Ram Dass who took LSD and other drugs to experience something "else". That isn't a path I wish to take. I mean it might give one the experience of something other than this realm. But, how is it real when it only seems like an illusion created by the drug? Sorry, I take seriously the idea of trusting the Buddha's word that one should see for oneself. So, for me, death doesn't allow entrance to heaven or hell. It is the end of this life. What Karma has in store for me? LOL. Does it really matter when there is no continuity of mind or memory?

Edited 21 hours ago by Tommy

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Does it really matter when there is no continuity of mind or memory?

 

There are quite a few child prodigies

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

Long ago, when I first came to daobums, you made a response post which really annoyed me.

 

Did it end up being 'productive '  ?      

 

Quote

 

 

And I have seen where others have had the same reaction. I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what others say. It only matter how one reacts to others. I can only control myself. So, after having said this, I thank you for your reply.

 

To say that my spirit is the essence of me?? I don't see it. As I have been knocked out, know there is nothing of me that exist outside of my body.

 

Valid reasoning .... but I didnt mean  what I think you are meaning now .   Your 'essence' or spirit (in this sense ) is what makes you .... 'you'  ; your individuality ..... that may be seen as wholly physical if one wants  ... but its still there ... otherwise we would all be the same.

 

Also a 'spirit' can be a distilled essence ... which is sorta like I meant above ... the essential you  ... beyond conditioning . ... your 'natural proclivities' . 

 

But perhaps you do not believe in that either ?  Some declare that isnt even there . 

. 

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Drink alcohol and my mind becomes affected. There is nothing I sense or feel or grok that is outside of this body.

 

?   Surely you must acknowledge other 'externals'  ... even the 'ideal'   if not considering 'the real '    ( the ideal - like concepts and physical laws that dont have 'hard concrete ' material existence  ? 

 

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And so, what essence would there be?

 

Great question, but that term essence would need better defining in what you mean by it before a good discussion could be had . 

 

 

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It is like people tell me there is a God. Sure. Okay, then how do I know this? How do I find my God? No visions or acts to show God. Some people who have had near death experiences say there is a God and so on and so forth. Personally, I don't see it. Maybe someday if I ever experience Kensho. Or have a near death experience.

 

Personally I dont feel a near death experience proves anything ... thats about near death ... not after death . 

 

People can say  they think or believe there is a God ...  but to declare to another that there IS ..... well  .....   Also what they are thinking or believing is God might not be the same as another .... that old adage  ; 'No I do not believe in God ... not the sort of God you believe in . ''

 

 

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Lets see, Ram Dass who took LSD and other drugs to experience something "else". That isn't a path I wish to take. I mean it might give one the experience of something other than this realm. But, how is it real when it only seems like an illusion created by the drug?

 

Even if it is not , experiencing such 'something else' might not assume spirit, afterlife or soul anyway .  Its a bit of a leap or a jump to a conclusion . What those substances are revealing is an expansion of faculties , or a diversion of them  to other things .  To me it can be a bit like ,  if we are surrounded  by  magnetic conductive substances , we would not know it  . But if we took up a magnet ( which I am comparing to these drugs )  all of a sudden a 'new world' opens to us  ...... but what do we conclude from that , thats the issue . 

 

 

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Sorry, I take seriously the idea of trusting the Buddha's word that one should see for oneself. So, for me, death doesn't allow entrance to heaven or hell.

 

 And if it did , what sort of heaven and hell might that be ?  Some human concept of what that is ?  HA!   to that I say .  And while HAing ... I see similar human audacity (or hubris ) in attempts to define or understand 'God' . 

 

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It is the end of this life. What Karma has in store for me? LOL. Does it really matter when there is no continuity of mind or memory?

 

No , not if there is no continuity whatsoever .  Cant be 'sure' one way or the  other , at least we can say death is a great adventure , stepping off into the unknown (even if it is instant obliteration ) .   I do have my own personal convictions and indications about it , but thats for me and relevant to me . 

 

But at least ... here you are , now .   May as well make the best of it ... which might include 'finding your spirit' within .... and  'doing stuff' according to your true nature  ... that seems to satisfy a lot of people  and dispels depression and pointlessness and feeling lost . 

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

There are quite a few child prodigies

And how many compared to those who have no past memories or continuity from the past?

One in a million? Two in a million?

Or let us say 2 or 3 in a hundred thousand. What percentage are you talking about?

Only those exceptions? If they really are for real?

Also, can't one be a prodigy and not have the talent come from a previous life?

 

Note: The Buddha or the awakened one could not prevent his own death. All things born will die. So, awakening is suppose to end the cycle of birth, death and rebirth? If one gets a chance to live again then why would anyone want to stop from being born again? Life isn't all suffering. Is it? Well at least for some of us, life can be very nice for a little while.

Edited 18 hours ago by Tommy

[Nungali]

22 minutes ago, Tommy said:

And how many compared to those who have no past memories or continuity from the past?

One in a million? Two in a million?

Or let us say 2 or 3 in a hundred thousand. What percentage are you talking about?

Only those exceptions? If they really are for real?

Also, can't one be a prodigy and not have the talent come from a previous life?

 

Certainly .....   a blow to the head can do it !  There are many examples of that .  

 

Acquired savant syndrome is a rare condition where an individual develops extraordinary new talents, such as those in music, art, or mathematics, after a brain injury, stroke, or other central nervous system event. This condition is distinct from congenital savant syndrome because it appears in previously neurotypical individuals who had no prior ability in the newfound area. It is believed to result from the right hemisphere of the brain compensating for damage to the left hemisphere

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome#Acquired_cases

 

22 minutes ago, Tommy said:

 

Note: The Buddha or the awakened one could not prevent his own death. All things born will die. So, awakening is suppose to end the cycle of birth, death and rebirth? If one gets a chance to live again then why would anyone want to stop from being born again? Life isn't all suffering. Is it? Well at least for some of us, life can be very nice for a little while.

 

' Amen' to that