Benebell Wen on the Microcosmic Orbit

[forestofclarity]

My initial impression is that she seems to be coming from a Western Magical Tradition POV (which is confirmed by her background), but I found this to be an interesting presentation. Curious about other's thoughts if anyone has familiarity. 

 

 

[SodaChanh]

Good method for yin yang harmonization and releasing the grasping of the body periphery. 

[Sahaja]

While I am a relative beginner at this, in my understanding the MCO is not a breath exercise. It’s moving actual substances through the du and the ren with internal pressure  to stimulate the  brain to replenish and change the body. To do this you need to have accumulated a sufficient supply of these substances, built the mechanism to move them and opened the transport network enough to carry them.  I didn’t hear any reference to this foundational work. 

[forestofclarity]

5 hours ago, Sahaja said:

in my understanding the MCO is not a breath exercise.

 

There are a lot of views, that's for sure. I've learned a number of MCO methods from different schools. Some say their method/teachings/results is the one true method, some don't. I've never found such views convincing personally, but that's just my opinion. I ran into the same thing with Christian churches and Buddhist schools--- it just seems like propaganda to me. 

 

Benebell has cited her sources about halfway through here, some of which are inaccessible to me because they are in Chinese. One of her sources, Huang Yuanji uses the terms differently for different levels IIRC. I find her version interesting because, like the Ge Guolong book translated by Mathias Daly (also a Huang Yuanji teaching), she picks up on certain things that many Daoists have not that correlate to Buddhist Tantra. 

 

https://benebellwen.com/2025/09/07/a-taoist-secret-to-cultivating-personal-power/

[SodaChanh]

9 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

There are a lot of views, that's for sure. I've learned a number of MCO methods from different schools. Some say their method/teachings/results is the one true method, some don't. I've never found such views convincing personally, but that's just my opinion. I ran into the same thing with Christian churches and Buddhist schools--- it just seems like propaganda to me. 

 

Agree. 

 

Rob Coons mentions 3 different MCOs here 

 

https://immortalitystudy.gumroad.com/l/bzsdpm?layout=profile

 

(not endorsing paid stuff but just for the sake of discussion). 

[Sanity Check]

13 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

However, the old concept of MCO was only a legendary concept was passed down from century to century. The same old story was always repeated with no proof. 
 

 

 

I think MCO is actually a real thing.

 

If you see someone with an unusually high amount of energy.

 

In some cases, it is MCO.

[forestofclarity]

41 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

 

Agree. 

 

Rob Coons mentions 3 different MCOs here 

 

https://immortalitystudy.gumroad.com/l/bzsdpm?layout=profile

 

(not endorsing paid stuff but just for the sake of discussion). 

 

This is interesting, and not the first time I've heard this either: 

 

Rob Coons wrote: 

Quote

Let me be a little blunt, most people who claim to understand the Small Heavenly Orbit are only partly informed about its nature and many people think it is just about circulating the mind around the body which is a mistake which medieval Daoists called 空转何车 Kong Zhuan He Che/The False Circulation of the River Wheel since there is no Qi in the area, only mental intention which leads to the burning of the track and makes it harder to progress in the future.

 

Which would back up Sahaja's point. 

[SodaChanh]

20 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

This is interesting, and not the first time I've heard this either: 

 

Rob Coons wrote: 

 

Which would back up Sahaja's point. 

 

True and my own finding that the Benebell Wen version can release the grasping of the body periphery can't just be done either without other work first. 

 

This version could lead to the Dao since the final result is the merging of you with the Dao which is the dissolving of feeling of 'you' in your consciousness - the universe is inside you she calls it. 

[forestofclarity]

9 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

can release the grasping of the body periphery

 

This is what caught my attention also. Many Daoist qigong/martial artists I've learned from have taught to focus on keeping within the body periphery, which can be an issue if the boundary is open. I don't know if this is just an initial position that is later sublated or not. 

 

15 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

the dissolving of feeling of 'you' in your consciousness - the universe is inside you she calls it. 

 

Which is another issue I see in a lot of Daoist-flavored teaching. It appears to me in many cases the "you" increases and the personality becomes quite strong leading to conflict and aggression (and even physical fights that students always seem "forced" into). At least for male teachers with martial arts backgrounds, which is probably 90% of my exposure. 

 

Just speculating, but I think because it is often a Ming to Xing path, there are often issues related around money, ego, and power. This seems to be less so with Xing to Ming or dual cultivation schools, but I don't have enough data points there. Of course, Buddhist schools often have issues around power and sex, so it is certainly not a sure thing.  

 

[forestofclarity]

Mod note: Split off Discussion about whether MCO is Real

 

 

 

[Jenn]

51 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

Which is another issue I see in a lot of Daoist-flavored teaching. It appears to me in many cases the "you" increases and the personality becomes quite strong leading to conflict and aggression (and even physical fights that students always seem "forced" into). At least for male teachers with martial arts backgrounds, which is probably 90% of my exposure. 

 

I have seen this outside martial arts communities often as well, falling into ego, power, desires, etc. 

 

I wonder if it is because the path taken is wrong, the student attempted things beyond their skill, or because the right path was taken but the student went astray.

 

Perhaps our shadow parts amplify significantly not because the path or skill was wrong, but so those aspects of ourselves become loud enough to hear, loud enough for us dumb-dumbs to finally see and thus process. But if one does not recognize this and overcome them successfully, it would be easy to find oneself wandering off the path and falling into them like traps without realizing it. 

[Sahaja]

When the substances really move and hit/pass the jade pillow going into you head, it’s quite intense…especially initially. There is no uncertainty of what is going on. It’s not subtle at all.  It’s more like ohhh s***t It’s also pretty clear when it returns below.  Very different experience than running just your intention through these areas while you breath. 

[Mark Foote]

 

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, Shunryu Suzuki; June 28, 1970, Tassajara [edited by Bill Redican])

 

 

[Sahaja]

As far as Xing and Ming, in my experience the mind and body are inextricably connected (sorry Descartes) . To quote my various teachers “When you work at one layerit affects all the other layers (though not equally).” With all the various circulations you change the chemistry of the brain that both physically changes your body as well as affects your character.  There are even strong “Ming” effects of just sitting with relaxed attention  at the base of a tree in lotus seat with dhyana/baoyuan mudra …doesn’t even have to be a bodhi tree, pretty much any tree will work.   Just have to deal with the ants!

[SodaChanh]

6 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Which is another issue I see in a lot of Daoist-flavored teaching. It appears to me in many cases the "you" increases and the personality becomes quite strong leading to conflict and aggression (and even physical fights that students always seem "forced" into). At least for male teachers with martial arts backgrounds, which is probably 90% of my exposure. 

 

Just speculating, but I think because it is often a Ming to Xing path, there are often issues related around money, ego, and power. This seems to be less so with Xing to Ming or dual cultivation schools, but I don't have enough data points there. Of course, Buddhist schools often have issues around power and sex, so it is certainly not a sure thing.  

 

 

One exception is Flying Phoenix Qigong. I know it is marketed as a health system but my own research indicates that the qi does not inflate the 'you' and one of the emptiness meditations could possibly lead to realization of emptiness if one does it for extended periods.