Zhan Zhuang is Not for Beginners

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

First, you must define Zhan Zhuang.

 

If you are 3 different people, you will get 3 different answers, and each of them are convinced that their version is the proper one.

 

Some Zhan Zhuang will be appropriate for beginners, some won’t be. All depends on the exact practice and how it fits into the lineage.

[Antares]

10 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

First, you must define Zhan Zhuang.

This thread began from this one

 

[forestofclarity]

 

6 hours ago, Antares said:

Bruce K.Frantzis sequence of the static postures

 

This may be how it is online, but not how he taught in person. 

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Wuji is nothing but standing still like a normal human being does. 

 

I have learned Wuji from at least a half a dozen or so lineage matters, some of them famous, some not. None of them would agree with your statement. Proper Wuji introduces alignment, relaxation, posture, and a palpable sense of qi. Also none of them taught standing post to mean standing on a plank as you've claimed. 

 

2 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

First, you must define Zhan Zhuang.

According to Damo, he is referring to static postures involving lifting the arms. 

[ChiDragon]

29 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

I have learned Wuji from at least a half a dozen or so lineage matters, some of them famous, some not. None of them would agree with your statement. Proper Wuji introduces alignment, relaxation, posture, and a palpable sense of qi. Also none of them taught standing post to mean standing on a plank as you've claimed.

Here it is Wuji
https://wujiquest.substack.com/p/wuji-the-posture-basics

[ChiDragon]

無極(Wuji) is void to the extreme. Nothing should be performed but stillness. If a practitioner ask you to do this and that at a Wuji position, sorry to say! You are not at the state of Wuij.

Edited October 5 by ChiDragon

[Antares]

10 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

This may be how it is online, but not how he taught in person. 

Do you know it or guess? This video was made on the basis of his seminar material. There are 8 postures. Interesting but Wuji is second one, tree (zhan zhuang is 5th one in order). And there is certain logic behind it. That why I asked why some people tend to stand still in ZZ only for prolonged period of time. Beginners wont do it right anyway so there is no point to do it for 40 minutes IMO

But if you change hand positions you will work on different channels and it is better for the overall balance

[jgd]

9 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

無極(Wuji) is void to the extreme. Nothing should be performed but stillness. If a practitioner ask you to do this and that at a Wuji position, sorry to say! You are not at the state of Wuij.

 

Any system worth its salt has a wuji posture. Southern mantis for example uses wuji to teach inner sinking without external sinking.K atori shinto ryu does the same with their natural stance, as described by Sugino. A similar description is done by Tom Bisio too. Almost the same as explained in Sun family methods (tcc,xingyi,etc). Dan Harden teaches it as misogi model. Damo mitchell has wuji teachings too...

 

It's more like if you are only doing stillness in your wuji, you never learned wuji.

 

 

Edited October 6 by jgd

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

12 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

According to Damo, he is referring to static postures involving lifting the arms. 

And are the legs and arms in a certain position according to him, or can they be done in different positions?

[Master Logray]

Most cultivation and martial systems have clear guidelines on standing pose.  The duration could range from a few minutes to 6 hours.   As to when a student should stand how much, there are endless possibilities for different schools.  So perhaps Damo is not referring to this.

 

I think Damo's target audience of his video is those who practise alone, without teacher or even practise ZZ (Jam Jong) only.  These people would need a guideline on the duration and when to do what.   

 

 

[Master Logray]

2 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

And are the legs and arms in a certain position according to him, or can they be done in different positions?

 

I seem to have impression on his book, his Wuji is with arms in a certain position.   Not sure I recall correctly or not.

[Antares]

27 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

The duration could range from a few minutes to 6 hours.   As to when a student should stand how much, there are endless possibilities for different schools.  So perhaps Damo is not referring to this.

Yes there are many schools out there but only a few know the correct method of doing it. In other words if one has the teacher it does not mean the teacher knows the correct method. He does what he was taught by his teacher

Edited October 6 by Antares

[Antares]

Normally they do it to collect a lot of post- heaven qi and for balance. But originally static postures had another goal which was alchemy. It should be done in combination with dynamic exercises. Nowadays they substitute correct routine with prolonged standing. But also it depends on the goal one has, in IMA goals vary

Edited October 6 by Antares

[Master Logray]

In the old days, we didn't call standing pose as ZZ (stand like a piling) much, but more common as Jaat Ma which literally means tying or bounding the horse.   This horse stance means 2 legs apart and slightly bent, as firm as a stake of a camp into the ground.   I think there is a hidden meaning of using standing to tie your mind which is like a galloping horse.  

[Antares]

On 06.10.2025 at 2:26 PM, Master Logray said:

In the old days, we didn't call standing pose as ZZ (stand like a piling) much, but more common as Jaat Ma which literally means tying or bounding the horse. 

There are variations and both are valid. Depending on goals. Mabu has its own goals. From what I know Mabu was used more in Shaolin, ZZ is more common in IMA like Taiji and Yiquan, not sure about Bagua 

Edited Wednesday at 01:18 AM by Antares

[Antares]

Although there are variations of styles even in Taiji. This one is from Longmen

They begin from ZZ variations and then go to lower ones

[Master Logray]

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

There are variations and boss are valid. Depending on goals. Mabu has its own goals. From what I know Mabu was used more in Shaolin, ZZ is more common in IMA like Taiji and Yiquan, not sure about Bagua 

 

I suspect external martial arts standing postures are more for strength, power, endurance and psychological qualities.  It applies to the "Yi" family internal boxings too.  The preciseness is important but not paramount.  While Taoist cultivation needs to keep the Chi circulating correctly, the exactness of the postures are important.  Simplicity of posture is more often used.

[Antares]

2 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

I suspect external martial arts standing postures are more for strength, power, endurance and psychological qualities

I am not talking about external styles at all. I meant old school Shaolin Mabu stances which linked directly to Bodhidharma.

Zhang Sanfeng modified it later to ZZ - like variations

[Master Logray]

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

I am not talking about external styles at all. I meant old school Shaolin Mabu stances which linked directly to Bodhidharma.

Zhang Sanfeng modified it later to ZZ - like variations

 

Shaolin is considered external.   The history of ZZ can be traced back about 2700 years, much earlier than the aforementioned religious figures.   Chan Chuang is another way to pronounce it.

 

https://pdf.hanspub.org/aps20210300000_24709301.pdf

 

Since static standing or lowering the body for a duration is the easiest discovery by the ancients, the actual age could be much longer.   Of course using standing to train Neidan would be much shorter.   It evolves.

[Antares]

28 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Shaolin is considered external.

Modern Shaolin is mostly external. But there were internal methods of cultivation before second burn in 17th century

28 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 The history of ZZ can be traced back about 2700 years, much earlier than the aforementioned religious figures.   

I know nothing about it. Difficult to trace it back to the very roots. I only know that ZS trained in Shaolin and there was exchange of methods between old Chan and Daoist methods of cultivation. ZS played a huge role in creation of Taiji-Quan we know now. Even though ZZ had been existed before ZS, he combined it all together. The development of Taiji could occur in several stages. In any case, a holistic methodology is important, and this is where ZS exceled. The use of ZZ as an independent practice is more of an external application in modern schools for their own purposes, including health benefits in TCM. For example, the theory that one should stand for exactly 40 minutes likely stems from TCM principles. They don’t know how to use ZZ in any other way. Imagine if a smartphone ended up in the hands of Amazonian tribespeople. They could use it for lighting—just press a button and light appears. Useful tool so

Edited October 6 by Antares

[Master Logray]

16 minutes ago, Antares said:

Modern Shaolin is mostly external. But there were internal methods of cultivation before second burn in 17th century

I know nothing about it. Difficult to trace it back to the very roots. I only know that ZS trained in Shaolin and there was exchange of methods between old Chan and Daoist methods of cultivation. ZS played a huge role in creation of Taiji-Quan we know now. Even though ZZ had been existed before ZS, he combined it all together. The development of Taiji could occur in several stages. In any case, a holistic methodology is important, and this is where ZS exceled. The use of ZZ as an independent practice is more of an external application in modern schools for their own purposes, including health benefits in TCM. For example, the theory that one should stand for exactly 40 minutes likely stems from TCM principles. They don’t know how to use ZZ in any other way. Imagine if a smartphone ended up in the hands of Amazonian tribespeople. They could use it for lighting—just press a button and light appears. Useful tool so

 

I only remember Freeform and Earl Grey stood 5-6 hours a day.    

[Antares]

3 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

I only remember Freeform and Earl Grey stood 5-6 hours a day.    

Shall I comment here what other members of TDB do?

[Antares]

Anyway it is good for post heaven qi cultivation. Modern people need it

[Master Logray]

22 minutes ago, Antares said:

Shall I comment here what other members of TDB do?

 

If we keep on talking about 5-6 hours duration, how many members would still be doing standing?

[forestofclarity]

17 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

If we keep on talking about 5-6 hours duration, how many members would still be doing standing?

 

In his Inside Zhan Zhuang book, Mark Cohen says 20-40 minutes for health, at least 60 for martial arts, and more for spirituality.

 

I think people miss the boat focusing on length over quality, personally. 

 

9 hours ago, Antares said:

Do you know it or guess?

 

My person experience. But things may have changed, this was a few years ago. 

[Antares]

38 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

In his Inside Zhan Zhuang book, Mark Cohen says 20-40 minutes for health, at least 60 for martial arts, and more for spirituality.

What he means by spirituality... may be just post heaven cultivation. If qi goes in the wrong direction, then it will be opposite course of any spirituality. The book also lacks dynamic exercises that would help direct qi in the right direction. 

55 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

I think people miss the boat focusing on length over quality, personally.

Yiquan is based on Daoist principles but it is IMA, it was developed to develop power, not wisdom. Taiji is more advanced in this regard

 

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

If we keep on talking about 5-6 hours duration, how many members would still be doing standing?

It is better to follow instructions of your teacher. If he says 5 hours of standing is right for you then you should do it

But I dont think people have so much time. I normally have 2 hours for practicing. Sometime 60 minutes

Freeform does retreats in rural areas as far as I know, so he has more time