Zhan Zhuang is Not for Beginners

[forestofclarity]

Thoughts? 

Most teachers I've dealt with start out with Wuji. 

 

 

[Krenx]

Beginners should not do Zhan Zhuang also a sole practice in the beginning. It should be done along side a bunch of things like loosening exercises, opening body methods, alignment practices. 

 

I think that is what he is trying to get at. Because to do Zhan Zhuang correctly, you do need all of peripheral training to support the standing conditions. Those conditions cannot easily be developed within the standing method itself "initially". 

 

But you can do it for short periods in the beginning to see if there are improvements every day.  

[Vajra Fist]

Saw this, and it felt a bit like gatekeeping. It's the most powerful form of qigong out there, and is not locked behind an academy paywall and a guru-like teacher.

 

I switched now to just standing and nothing else on energetics. 40mins in ball holding pose, as recommended in Marc Cohen's book Inside Zhan Zhuang. 

 

My body becomes more supple, looser as the time progresses, not harder or stiffer. 

 

An important part of that is body scanning and allowing knots of tension to release. There are experiences when tension and hardness suddenly dissolve, after which the body feels light and soft. 

 

I would advise trying it for yourself. If you feel stiffer and more stuck, as Damo intimates, then switch to wuji or moving forms. But don't take his word as gospel, without trying for yourself.

Edited yesterday at 05:02 PM by Vajra Fist

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Krenx said:

 

But you can do it for short periods in the beginning to see if there are improvements every day.  

This is how a beginner does. There is no such thing as not for beginners. Otherwise, where would a beginner start to do something.

[Antares]

5 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

This is how a beginner does. There is no such thing as not for beginners. Otherwise, where would a beginner start to do something.

From dynamic exercises to activate meridians. The problem with ZZ (tree stance) is if your channels are not worked out properly, qi can go up in front channel instead of going on the back. So I agree this practice is not for beginners.

[ChiDragon]

In the good old days.  A Chinese father used to discipline his son by making him do Zhan Zhuang. It is because the father knew it was good for the health of the son.

BTW Most Kung Fu masters always have their students start with ZZ before teaching any forms of martial art. It is because that is the fundamental training to condition the body to take any future punishment. 

Edited yesterday at 05:47 PM by ChiDragon

[Antares]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

In the good old days.  A Chinese father used to discipline his son by making him do Zhan Zhuang. It is because the father knew it was good for the health of the son.

How do you know this? Have you been living for 300 years?

 

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

BTW Most Kung Fu masters always have theirs students start with ZZ before teaching any forms of martial art.

The word Kung Fu means just mastery or art. They teach ZZ before anything else in SOME of the contemporary wushu styles like Yiquan but even in yiquan they begin from Wuji stance. People who read yiquan books, do not pay attention to this fact, they just skip it and go straight to ZZ stance thinking they are advanced practitioners

[Antares]

Here yiquan guy thinks he is relaxing shoulders but in fact his qi went up in the front of the body causing involuntary movements

 

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

How do you know this? Have you been living for 300 years?

 

The word Kung Fu means just mastery or art. They teach ZZ before anything else in SOME of the contemporary wushu styles like Yiquan but even in yiquan they begin from Wuji stance. People who read yiquan books, do not pay attention to this fact, they just skip it and go straight to ZZ stance thinking they are advanced practitioners

Haha, the good old days for me was 60 years ago. I'll reserve my comments on your thoughts on ZZ. Peace!

[Krenx]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

This is how a beginner does. There is no such thing as not for beginners. Otherwise, where would a beginner start to do something.

Yup. That is why I would disagree with Damo. The context is if you do ZZ ONLY in the beginning expecting to get results, you will not get results.  

 

But if you do it along side other important developments, it serves a good reference point to gauge improvement, until ZZ transforms to take off on its own as a stand alone cultivation.  

[forestofclarity]

I've been off again, on again with Taiji and Qigong. I've taken up Taiji again over the past year after a bit of a hiatus. I'm surprised at how foundational wuji seems to be, and also at how many people tend to put it off or ignore it. 

 

I can say that, after softening up internally and opening some stuff up, standing has gotten far easier. One issue I had generally was too much tension (and also mental clinging), and both meditation and qigong teachers in my view fail to teach how to deal with it. There is sometimes a subtle pressure to "grin and bear it" which I think locks tension into the body/subtle body. I actually had to undo a lot of this tension that I picked up from initial Vipassana practice. So in this regard, it makes sense to focus on Wuji before ZZ since it is a bit simpler. 

 

6 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

40mins in ball holding pose, as recommended in Marc Cohen's book Inside Zhan Zhuang. 

 

I've just ordered the book a few days ago on the recommendation of my local Taiji friends, so I haven't seen it yet but I've watched some of his videos and was reviewing them just today. Doesn't he start with Wuji? He does in the videos. 

 

[ChiDragon]

9 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

40mins in ball holding pose, as recommended in Marc Cohen's book Inside Zhan Zhuang. 

There should be no time limits. If you stand for awhile like few minutes and cannot withstand the pain, then, stop. Wait awhile, then, try again. Just try to bear the pain for awhile until you can bear it without stopping.

 

BTW Wuji is standing without having the legs bent. It is only a starting position. You should go to ZZ right away and bend your knees at a comfortable position. Move your body up and down to adjust the tension on your legs muscles.

 

[Antares]

5 hours ago, Krenx said:

But if you do it along side other important developments, it serves a good reference point to gauge improvement, until ZZ transforms to take off on its own as a stand alone cultivation.  

The question I have is why you would go to work with middle center in the beginning of YOUR cultivation process

[Antares]

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Doesn't he start with Wuji? He does in the videos. 

Wuji is first one in the book but as I have said people think this is for losers only but cool people DO TREE STANCE FOR 40+ MINUTES.

They don't care to read that the author did it for 5 minutes each stance.

Anyway this book is not for beginners and who told you that Yiquan is good stuff to begin with? Why not Xinyi or Taiji?

[Krenx]

3 hours ago, Antares said:

The question I have is why you would go to work with middle center in the beginning of YOUR cultivation process

Not sure what you mean by "middle center". 

[Vajra Fist]

6 hours ago, Antares said:

Wuji is first one in the book but as I have said people think this is for losers only but cool people DO TREE STANCE FOR 40+ MINUTES.

They don't care to read that the author did it for 5 minutes each stance.

Anyway this book is not for beginners and who told you that Yiquan is good stuff to begin with? Why not Xinyi or Taiji?

 

Just curious, have you ever stopped to ask yourself why you care so much how other people practice? 

[Vajra Fist]

Quote

THE LENGTH OF THE STANDING SESSION

 

The length of one’s Zhan Zhuang session can vary greatly.

 

Traditionally one stands about 40 minutes for health and about one hour or more for martial arts power development. That said, for most people starting out, these times should be the goal.

 

For those who are injured or who are over 50 or 60, it is often important to proceed more slowly. For example, they might start with much shorter times, 10, 15, 20 or 30 minutes depending on one’s condition.

 

But there is a wisdom behind the traditional times. The idea with 40 minutes a day for health is that one must put in enough time daily in order to generate the conditions in the body necessary to instigate healing. This primarily has to do with an increase in the internal Chi circulation. So for those, who for whatever reason can only hang in there for a short session, simply repeat the shorter time about 2 or 3 hours after the first session or later in the day to get to the 40 minute health mark.

 

The Time Factor

 

Everyone’s body has what can be called a ‘time of endurance’ or a threshold limit, that is, the length of time the body can bear and endure discomfort or pain. For some this can be the whole length of a traditional standing session. Unfortunately, because of this Spartan ability, these folks are often slow in resolving blockages and other problems simply because they don’t know how to let go.

 

But for most, the body, and generally in the beginning this means the muscles, will reach a point where they just can’t seem to go on. When this happens if we can manage to hang in there a little longer, the effected area will send a message to the brain.

 

The brain in turn will send back a message which causes the whole area to let go. When this happens we feel a definite relaxation in the region and also many times, a sense of space or openness. Sometimes however, if the pain is becoming extreme, the message from the brain might be something like, lower your arms or just stop.

 

For the Spartan types, these kind of messages are almost subconsciously blocked out altogether or simply ignored through the power of the will or intention. If one looks at this objectively, it is apparent that there is an avoidance or aversion toward really being in touch with their bodies.

 

But for the rest of us, these signals and sensations can act as important signposts. Though it is true that Yiquan translates loosely as ‘Intention Fist,’ this does not necessarily mean intention without common sense.

 

Though in truth there are moments when it is appropriate to tough it out, many times depending on one’s situation, meaning injuries or structural problems, it is far better to listen to the body and lower your arms.

 

Return to the Wuji posture and rest the overly-fatigued muscles for a little while and then resume the particular arm position. Any discussion about the length of the standing session would not be complete without addressing the difference between using say eight postures in 40 minutes versus holding just one posture for the whole time. In my experience both have advantages and disadvantages. Holding multiple postures for short periods has the advantage of alternating between different muscle groups which can reduce the overall stress. In addition, each time you move from one posture to another it alters the emphasis of the overall Chi flow.

 

In many of the postural sequences these changes are very deliberate and are calculated to create a specific overall effect. On the other hand by only using shorter periods for each posture, the body’s ‘time of endurance’ is seldom reached, making some of the deeper changes slower to come about. Conversely, by holding one posture for the whole time, one may reach their ‘time of endurance’ threshold several times and experience a number of openings and deep releases.

 

The point of all this is to listen to your body and trust in it’s innate wisdom. Personally I prefer this ‘Taoist style’ approach, being natural and dealing with whatever comes up as it happens. This means being willing to be adaptable. Too much rigidity, in maintaining the perfect posture no matter what, leads to stiffness in martial technique as well as possibly new blockages to go with what one already has. The idea of ‘perfection of symmetry’ is somewhat overrated. Just look at nature. No two tree limbs grow exactly alike.

 

Therefore ‘perfection of symmetry’ should be a goal, albeit one we try to achieve everyday. But at the same time we must be gentle with ourselves such that we realize and accept ourselves just as we are in the present moment, and the next present moment and the next. This way perfection becomes the path not a rigid absolute.

 

Edit: just for clarification, this is an extract from Inside Zhan Zhuang by Mark Cohen. Apologies to the author, but he's probably able to better express the point than me. 

 

On a personal level, I'm also opposed to black and white, absolutist positions on this subject. Maybe zhan zhuang is inappropriate for some beginners, and less so for others. Maybe wuji is better for some beginners, maybe less so for others. The importance is listening to your own body and responding appropriately. And always exercise critical thinking when it comes to Internet authorities. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Vajra Fist

[Antares]

3 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

Just curious, have you ever stopped to ask yourself why you care so much how other people practice? 

This is Daoist Discussion section of the TDB, dude. If people ask, I can reply SOMETIME. Do you have problem with it?

Just curious, have you ever stopped to ask yourself why you care so much how I respond in this section of TDB?

Just remind you the title of the thread Zhan Zhuang is Not for Beginners 

 

Some people here like to invent their own methods calling it DAOIST methods

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

The length of one’s Zhan Zhuang session can vary greatly.

 

Traditionally one stands about 40 minutes

 

I only wonder if you can answer in which Daoist lineage it is like that. But I am afraid you just copied this from Internet spreading the lie what people do in the Daoist lineages. And yes, I dont support spreading the misinformation.

If you have problem with it - just report to administrators

Edited 7 hours ago by Antares

[forestofclarity]

Mod Note: Let's stay on point and not try to bait members with meme posting.

[forestofclarity]

10 hours ago, Antares said:

Anyway this book is not for beginners and who told you that Yiquan is good stuff to begin with? Why not Xinyi or Taiji?

 

I appreciate the concern. Just for clarification, I've been recommended the specific ZZ posture and the book by my local instructors.

 

I would say that every taiji teacher I've ever had has started with static standing postures, usually Wuji. A few have stated that if they could, they would have everyone practice nothing but Wuji for some months, but they don't think anyone in the U.S. would want to learn in such a way. 

 

In retrospect, I don't see how one develops any sort of internal structure WITHOUT a lot of Wuji. I wish I had followed the advice earlier on practicing this more some time ago. 

 

 

[Antares]

22 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

I would say that every taiji teacher I've ever had has started with static standing postures, usually Wuji. A few have stated that if they could, they would have everyone practice nothing but Wuji for some months, but they don't think anyone in the U.S. would want to learn in such a way. 

I know how they do it in Longmen Taiji for instance - the tree stance is done after months of lower hands positions including Wuji

In Yiquan you can watch the Bruce K.Frantzis sequence of the static postures and if you do it you will see that tree stance is 3d or 4th one in the sequence and it is not done for long period of time -- may be 3- 5 minutes for each position.

This is more traditional way of doing it in the beginning of the cultivation

[Master Logray]

On 10/4/2025 at 11:35 PM, forestofclarity said:

Thoughts? 

Most teachers I've dealt with start out with Wuji. 

 

 

Wuji - the ball holding standing is not the simplest one.   The "Quiet and Pure" Standing is before that.  It is with 2 hands drop to the sides of the body, somewhat like having an intention to pressing the ground but not actually doing it.   The Ball Holding stance is getting some unfavourable attention these days.  Because it looks like holding a book, a newspaper or nowadays a phone in front of you.   This posture can create similar problems as using phones too much.  

 

I do think newbies should practise ZZ for a short duration e.g. 5-10 minutes, usually after the Taichi or Qigong exercises completed.  It is for knowing how to align yourself; and resting into stilling the mind.  In the longer term, the system you choose will dictate how long you need to stand.  If a person cannot stand too long, then pick another system.  

[Bhathen]

This is in response to @forestofclarity not part of the discussion.

 

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I would say that every taiji teacher I've ever had has started with static standing postures, usually Wuji. A few have stated that if they could, they would have everyone practice nothing but Wuji for some months, but they don't think anyone in the U.S. would want to learn in such a way. 

 

 

After a wrong move during a yoga class several years ago left me with persistent knee pain, a senior bum suggested trying out tai chi. I was initially skeptical but decided to enroll in Damo's taijiquan course. The  course began with the "wuji" stance in the first week, followed by a V-shaped standing posture for body-scanning.

After just two weeks the results were remarkable: my knee pain noticeably decreased. Within two months, I had progressed from being able to stand for four minutes to 20, and the year-and-a-half-long pain was completely resolved with just these two stances.

[Forestgreen]

11 hours ago, Krenx said:

Not sure what you mean by "middle center". 

That would be a reference to what that specific hand position work with, as in different handposition = different internal work. 

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

The "Quiet and Pure" Standing is before that.  It is with 2 hands drop to the sides of the body,

Yes, that and standing with the legs straight up. That is the true wuji posture. 

 

PS

Wuji is nothing but standing still like a normal human being does. It was defined by the Qigong practitioners by calling it Wuji. Why make such a big deal out of it?

Edited 20 minutes ago by ChiDragon