Zhan Zhuang is Not for Beginners

[forestofclarity]

Thoughts? 

Most teachers I've dealt with start out with Wuji. 

 

 

[Krenx]

Beginners should not do Zhan Zhuang also a sole practice in the beginning. It should be done along side a bunch of things like loosening exercises, opening body methods, alignment practices. 

 

I think that is what he is trying to get at. Because to do Zhan Zhuang correctly, you do need all of peripheral training to support the standing conditions. Those conditions cannot easily be developed within the standing method itself "initially". 

 

But you can do it for short periods in the beginning to see if there are improvements every day.  

[Vajra Fist]

Saw this, and it felt a bit like gatekeeping. It's the most powerful form of qigong out there, and is not locked behind an academy paywall and a guru-like teacher.

 

I switched now to just standing and nothing else on energetics. 40mins in ball holding pose, as recommended in Marc Cohen's book Inside Zhan Zhuang. 

 

My body becomes more supple, looser as the time progresses, not harder or stiffer. 

 

An important part of that is body scanning and allowing knots of tension to release. There are experiences when tension and hardness suddenly dissolve, after which the body feels light and soft. 

 

I would advise trying it for yourself. If you feel stiffer and more stuck, as Damo intimates, then switch to wuji or moving forms. But don't take his word as gospel, without trying for yourself.

Edited 17 hours ago by Vajra Fist

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Krenx said:

 

But you can do it for short periods in the beginning to see if there are improvements every day.  

This is how a beginner does. There is no such thing as not for beginners. Otherwise, where would a beginner start to do something.

[Antares]

5 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

This is how a beginner does. There is no such thing as not for beginners. Otherwise, where would a beginner start to do something.

From dynamic exercises to activate meridians. The problem with ZZ (tree stance) is if your channels are not worked out properly, qi can go up in front channel instead of going on the back. So I agree this practice is not for beginners.

[ChiDragon]

In the good old days.  A Chinese father used to discipline his son by making him do Zhan Zhuang. It is because the father knew it was good for the health of the son.

BTW Most Kung Fu masters always have their students start with ZZ before teaching any forms of martial art. It is because that is the fundamental training to condition the body to take any future punishment. 

Edited 16 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Antares]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

In the good old days.  A Chinese father used to discipline his son by making him do Zhan Zhuang. It is because the father knew it was good for the health of the son.

How do you know this? Have you been living for 300 years?

 

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

BTW Most Kung Fu masters always have theirs students start with ZZ before teaching any forms of martial art.

The word Kung Fu means just mastery or art. They teach ZZ before anything else in SOME of the contemporary wushu styles like Yiquan but even in yiquan they begin from Wuji stance. People who read yiquan books, do not pay attention to this fact, they just skip it and go straight to ZZ stance thinking they are advanced practitioners

[Antares]

Here yiquan guy thinks he is relaxing shoulders but in fact his qi went up in the front of the body causing involuntary movements

 

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

How do you know this? Have you been living for 300 years?

 

The word Kung Fu means just mastery or art. They teach ZZ before anything else in SOME of the contemporary wushu styles like Yiquan but even in yiquan they begin from Wuji stance. People who read yiquan books, do not pay attention to this fact, they just skip it and go straight to ZZ stance thinking they are advanced practitioners

Haha, the good old days for me was 60 years ago. I'll reserve my comments on your thoughts on ZZ. Peace!

[Krenx]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

This is how a beginner does. There is no such thing as not for beginners. Otherwise, where would a beginner start to do something.

Yup. That is why I would disagree with Damo. The context is if you do ZZ ONLY in the beginning expecting to get results, you will not get results.  

 

But if you do it along side other important developments, it serves a good reference point to gauge improvement, until ZZ transforms to take off on its own as a stand alone cultivation.  

[forestofclarity]

I've been off again, on again with Taiji and Qigong. I've taken up Taiji again over the past year after a bit of a hiatus. I'm surprised at how foundational wuji seems to be, and also at how many people tend to put it off or ignore it. 

 

I can say that, after softening up internally and opening some stuff up, standing has gotten far easier. One issue I had generally was too much tension (and also mental clinging), and both meditation and qigong teachers in my view fail to teach how to deal with it. There is sometimes a subtle pressure to "grin and bear it" which I think locks tension into the body/subtle body. I actually had to undo a lot of this tension that I picked up from initial Vipassana practice. So in this regard, it makes sense to focus on Wuji before ZZ since it is a bit simpler. 

 

6 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

40mins in ball holding pose, as recommended in Marc Cohen's book Inside Zhan Zhuang. 

 

I've just ordered the book a few days ago on the recommendation of my local Taiji friends, so I haven't seen it yet but I've watched some of his videos and was reviewing them just today. Doesn't he start with Wuji? He does in the videos. 

 

[ChiDragon]

9 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

40mins in ball holding pose, as recommended in Marc Cohen's book Inside Zhan Zhuang. 

There should be no time limits. If you stand for awhile like few minutes and cannot withstand the pain, then, stop. Wait awhile, then, try again. Just try to bear the pain for awhile until you can bear it without stopping.

 

BTW Wuji is standing without having the legs bent. It is only a starting position. You should go to ZZ right away and bend your knees at a comfortable position. Move your body up and down to adjust the tension on your legs muscles.

 

[Antares]

5 hours ago, Krenx said:

But if you do it along side other important developments, it serves a good reference point to gauge improvement, until ZZ transforms to take off on its own as a stand alone cultivation.  

The question I have is why you would go to work with middle center in the beginning of YOUR cultivation process

[Antares]

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Doesn't he start with Wuji? He does in the videos. 

Wuji is first one in the book but as I have said people think this is for losers only but cool people DO TREE STANCE FOR 40+ MINUTES.

They don't care to read that the author did it for 5 minutes each stance.

Anyway this book is not for beginners and who told you that Yiquan is good stuff to begin with? Why not Xinyi or Taiji?

[Krenx]

3 hours ago, Antares said:

The question I have is why you would go to work with middle center in the beginning of YOUR cultivation process

Not sure what you mean by "middle center". 

[Vajra Fist]

6 hours ago, Antares said:

Wuji is first one in the book but as I have said people think this is for losers only but cool people DO TREE STANCE FOR 40+ MINUTES.

They don't care to read that the author did it for 5 minutes each stance.

Anyway this book is not for beginners and who told you that Yiquan is good stuff to begin with? Why not Xinyi or Taiji?

 

Just curious, have you ever stopped to ask yourself why you care so much how other people practice?