Fajin (發勁), executing an explosive force

[ChiDragon]

Please don't discriminate the styles of Taiji. The principal of fajin is the same in all the styles. Just pay close attention in the video. When the master, at the left, moves his hands forward, he was performing Fajin. 

[Krenx]

Phoenix mountain guy is one of the few legit ones. For yang style taiji. Very good stuff. From a familiar lineage as I. 

 

For Chen style, the master Li Qiang of the  Hong lineage is one of the best. If you can find his videos. 

[ChiDragon]

Jin is an interesting subject to investigate. The more we discuss about Jin the more we will understand what it is. IMMHO Jin by itself, in a Taiji body, is not an explosive force. It is only a potential energy that is ready to be issued by Fajin. Jin is not an explosive force, yet, until it was issued by the practitioner. The powerful Fajin force is very deadly if someone cannot withstand the impact of contact.

In regard to the different types of Jin,  they are really, only, describing the methods of Fajin.  There are 8 types of Fajin methods are well known and recognized by Taiji practitioners. They are  掤劲、捋劲、挤劲、按劲、采劲 、 挒劲、肘劲、靠劲. 

Edited Tuesday at 09:07 AM by ChiDragon

[Krenx]

Agreed. The explosive force of Jin is a "result" of an opponent not being able to handle the speed of yin yang change. 

 

This is a very important framing to perceive Jin. Without this understanding, practitioners in combat will try to "insist" some explosive result on opponents. Real fighting does not work like that.  

 

With ting Jin, you will KNOW when the opponent's body is unable to catch up to the change. And you set up as you said, the potential energy from transformation in a way, where once you issue, you know that Jin equation is too much for the particular opponent to hua, and they end up releasing that energy in an aggressive and explosive way. 

 

Insisting on specific things to happen in taiji Quan, like explosive fajin, goes against the principles of taiji, and will result in one not being able to do that. Fajin is something you set up conditions for, and "allow" to happen. It is closer to an observed result. 

[steve]

In addition to the eight specific techniques, 掤, 捋, 挤, 按, 采, 挒, 肘, 靠 (peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, and kao); there are other types of 劲 that can be described and were an important part of my training. They were collectively referred to as 發手 or 八 大 勁. The formal and descriptive names of the methods are below in Hanzi with the short, informal names we used in English. Some may object to the use of the word strength, substitute whatever you prefer, it's the English word my teacher most often used when discussing them. 

 

1. 靈 蛇 吐 珠 (纏 絲 勁).  Coiling strength

2. 葉 底 藏 花 (按, 才履 寸 勁).  Pushing strength

3. 隨 步 探 珠 (波 浪 勁).  Wave strength

4. 禦 步 擒 龍 (螺 旋 勁).  Revolving strength

5. 移 形 拿 穴 (認 穴 陽 勁.  Striking vital point 

6. 陷 陣 破 敵 (靠 打 陰 勁).  Covert strength

7. 如 封 似 閉 (分 合 勁).  Integrated strength

8. 引 進 落 空 (折 疊 勁).  Folding strength

 

These are related to the fajin methods you describe but not as firmly related to specific techniques; rather they are more descriptive of combinations and categories of energies that are important in playing tui shou and in martial applications. I don't know if you've come across these in your training or study but thought I'd share as they are very valuable concepts and methods and worthy of deep exploration. 

 

[Krenx]

A good way to view these jins, is that they are basically permutations of yin yang within the human body. Shapes and flavours of power. There are the primary 4 peng lu ji an, and the 8 of we include cai lie zhou cao. And alot more practiced by various lineages. 

 

We train these main jins, and extended Jins, to cover all the ways energy can transform. So meeting any force from the opponent, we have the Jins available to navigate, use to deal with incoming forces in a variety of ways. 

 

The purpose is to smoothen the Jins and their relationship to one another seamlessly, so the practitioner becomes free to allow changes in Jin and energy to transform to their advantage. 

 

We do not train a Jin, to insist particular jins in a fight. We train it so it is "available" to be used when the opportunity arises, and skillfully navigate between them, shape the forces to the is ideal for the situation. 

 

And how masters seem to able to use the jin they want to use, is NOT because they insisted on it. They responded with the right Jin at the connection, and transform/ guided the forces to the conditions ripe for the Jin of their choosing. It happens quickly, so it seems they use the jin they wanted. No. They created the conditions for it still following the principles of taiji Quan. They will tell you if the conditions are not there, the particular jin will not arise. 

Edited Wednesday at 06:19 PM by Krenx

[Taomeow]

34 minutes ago, steve said:

In addition to the eight specific techniques, 掤, 捋, 挤, 按, 采, 挒, 肘, 靠 (peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, and kao); there are other types of 劲 that can be described and were an important part of my training. They were collectively referred to as 發手 or 八 大 勁. The formal and descriptive names of the methods are below in Hanzi with the short, informal names we used in English. Some may object to the use of the word strength, substitute whatever you prefer, it's the English word my teacher most often used when discussing them. 

 

1. 靈 蛇 吐 珠 (纏 絲 勁).  Coiling strength

2. 葉 底 藏 花 (按, 才履 寸 勁).  Pushing strength

3. 隨 步 探 珠 (波 浪 勁).  Wave strength

4. 禦 步 擒 龍 (螺 旋 勁).  Revolving strength

5. 移 形 拿 穴 (認 穴 陽 勁.  Striking vital point 

6. 陷 陣 破 敵 (靠 打 陰 勁).  Covert strength

7. 如 封 似 閉 (分 合 勁).  Integrated strength

8. 引 進 落 空 (折 疊 勁).  Folding strength

 

These are related to the fajin methods you describe but not as firmly related to specific techniques; rather they are more descriptive of combinations and categories of energies that are important in playing tui shou and in martial applications. I don't know if you've come across these in your training or study but thought I'd share as they are very valuable concepts and methods and worthy of deep exploration. 

 

 

Yup.  

 

And then there's "long jin" (chang jin 长劲) and "short jin" (duan jin 短劲) for all of the above. 

 

When a high level master shows what looks, to a less-than-clueful observer, either fake, staged, or magical -- that's the short jin. 

The difference in explosive power between the "regular" long jin and the top level short jin I would liken to the difference between regular powder explosion and nuclear explosion.  The first one relies on a rapid chemical reaction (combustion) of an explosive material like gunpowder or TNT.  The second one involves nuclear fission, where atomic nuclei are split into smaller fragments, releasing immense energy.  (Bear with me, these are only metaphors, I don't mean short jin can split atomic nuclei... 

...or can it if it's very short?  )           

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, Krenx said:

 

The purpose is to smoothen the Jins and their relationship to one another seamlessly, so the practitioner becomes free to allow changes in Jin and energy to transform to their advantage. 

 

We do not train a Jin, to insist particular jins in a fight. We train it so it is "available" to be used when the opportunity arises, and skillfully navigate between them, shape the forces to the is ideal for the situation. 

 

And how masters seem to able to use the jin they want to use, is NOT because they insisted on it. They responded with the right Jin at the connection, and transform/ guided the forces to the conditions ripe for the Jin of their choosing. It happens quickly, so it seems they use the jin they wanted. No. They created the conditions for it still following the principles of taiji Quan. They will tell you if the conditions are not there, the particular jin will not arise.

Hehe, you seems to have a good grasp on Fajin. However, you put in an indirect way.  You are treating the method of Fajin as a noun. What you really saying was: A master will apply the right method to Fajin when an opportunity allows in a particular situation. 

The eight methods of Fajin using different parts of the body indicated as follows:
1. 掤(peng) : Using one forearm sideways to push out and upward

2. 捋(lu) : Using the palms moving laterally 

3. 挤(ji) : Using the back of the hands pushing forward

4. 按(an) : Using both the palms and arms in the up position with the upper torso moving forward, using the waist as leverage.

5. 采(ca) : Using the fingers holding the wrist and the elbow of the opponent moving downward.

6. 挒(lie) : Using both forearms to blocking the incoming force.

7. 肘(zhou) : Using the elbow to push the opponent when close in contact 

8. 靠(kao) : Using the shoulder to push the opponent away 

Please note: The most effective way to Fajin is by turning the waist, at the same time, during the execution of these eight methods.

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1tmm9Y4E4g/?spm_id_from=888.80997.embed_other.whitelist&t=17.474235&bvid=BV1tmm9Y4E4g

Edited yesterday at 12:05 AM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

And then there's "long jin" (chang jin 长劲) and "short jin" (duan jin 短劲) for all of the above

IMMHO It seems to me it was the duration of Fajin. It depends how long did it take for each method of Fajin. One can continuously applying Jin or Fajin by pushing the opponent moving backward for a long time. I would consider a short Jin was just to neutralize the opponent with one short move then stop.

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

IMMHO It seems to me it was the duration of Fajin. It depends how long did it take for each method of Fajin. One can continuously applying Jin or Fajin by pushing the opponent moving backward for a long time. I would consider a short Jin was just to neutralize the opponent with one short move then stop.

 

No, you may mean something else, but what I said refers to the level of skill, the development and refinement of qi with all its taiji-specific derivatives including fajin --

and its availability on a whole new level to those who had developed and refined it.  Short jin refers to its concentration into ever-smaller units (in actual distance of application, among other things, but not only) of ever-greater power.  Basically you generate it at what looks like a simple touch, not a punch, not a kick, not a push...  just touch.

 

You need to place yourself on the receiving end of short jin in order to get an idea of what it's about.  A high level teaching master can show you...  once.  Once is enough, and you won't ask for more, I guarantee it.  But you will understand what you're working toward.  (And there's no other way.  )  

Edited yesterday at 12:46 AM by Taomeow

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

You need to place yourself on the receiving end of short jin in order to get an idea of what it's about.  A high level teaching master can show you...  once.  Once is enough, and you won't ask for more, I guarantee it.  But you will understand what you're working toward.  (And there's no other way.  )

Hmmmm.....Really?  

[Taomeow]

7 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Hmmmm.....Really?  

 

Uh-huh.  

[ChiDragon]

What is long Jin(長勁)?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=什么是太極長勁%3F&sca_esv=dcc0ce3d0aae17fc&ei=4gXeaN7TB72bwbkPjJzR4AY&ved=0ahUKEwjezJbq3ISQAxW9TTABHQxOFGwQ4dUDCBA&oq=什么是太極長勁%3F&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFuS7gOS5iOaYr-WkqualtemVt-WLgT8yCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMggQABiABBiiBEiysgFQuiFY235wAngBkAEBmAHdCKAB4SKqAQ0yLTQuMC4xLjAuMi4xuAEMyAEA-AEBmAIHoALxEMICChAAGLADGNYEGEeYAwCIBgGQBgqSBw0yLjAuMy4wLjEuMC4xoAevE7IHCzItMy4wLjEuMC4xuAfgEMIHBzAuMS41LjHIByk&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Edited 21 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

What is short Jin(短勁)?

https://www.google.com/search?q=什么是太極短勁%3F&sca_esv=dcc0ce3d0aae17fc&ei=QgfeaKKxEdWhiLMP25CH8Ao&ved=0ahUKEwii2oyS3oSQAxXVEGIAHVvIAa4Q4dUDCBA&oq=什么是太極短勁%3F&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFuS7gOS5iOaYr-WkqualteefreWLgT8yCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wUyCBAAGIAEGKIESL7yAVDiJVi_ywFwBHgAkAEBmAGwBaABkQ-qAQcyLTUuNS0xuAEMyAEA-AEBmAIJoALLDcICCxAAGIAEGLADGKIEwgIIEAAYsAMY7wWYAwCIBgGQBgWSBwk0LjAuNC41LTGgB9gJsgcHMi00LjUtMbgHqQ3CBwcwLjEuNy4xyAcs&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Edited 21 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

No, you may mean something else, but what I said refers to the level of skill, the development and refinement of qi with all its taiji-specific derivatives including fajin --

 

I gave you the Chinese source for long and short Jin. How about give me your English source of both Jins?

[Gerard]

Demo in real life, which is more important than words. This is what TM is talking about.

 

Chen Xiaowang's son, Chen Yingjun, demonstrated this to a student I used to hang out with in the past as he was also a BGZ student in my group and he said it felt like being hit by a tank but he was only demoing it. It was in one of his workshops::

 

https://brisbanechentaichi.weebly.com/

 

Second pic. He is on the right wearing black. 

Edited 20 hours ago by Gerard

[jgd]

8 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

A master will apply the right method to Fajin when an opportunity allows in a particular situation. 

The eight methods of Fajin using different parts of the body indicated as follows:
1. 掤(peng) : Using one forearm sideways to push out and upward

2. 捋(lu) : Using the palms moving laterally 

3. 挤(ji) : Using the back of the hands pushing forward

4. 按(an) : Using both the palms and arms in the up position with the upper torso moving forward, using the waist as leverage.

5. 采(ca) : Using the fingers holding the wrist and the elbow of the opponent moving downward.

6. 挒(lie) : Using both forearms to blocking the incoming force.

7. 肘(zhou) : Using the elbow to push the opponent when close in contact 

8. 靠(kao) : Using the shoulder to push the opponent away 

Please note: The most effective way to Fajin is by turning the waist, at the same time, during the execution of these eight methods.

 

Sorry if too blunt but that explanation sounds purely like external methods

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, jgd said:

 

Sorry if too blunt but that explanation sounds purely like external methods

Of course, all methods of Fajin are external. How can anyone expect it to be internal?

Edited 17 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

8 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I gave you the Chinese source for long and short Jin. How about give me your English source of both Jins?

 

Chinese source does not equal competent source.  My "English source" is also a Chinese source -- my Chen lineage master.  In addition to his native Chinese he speaks pretty good English.   He also holds a Ph.D. degree from Shanghai University as a taiji researcher, but more importantly he showed me short jin in real life.  So my reasons for looking for a different source are exactly zero, both academically and empirically. 

 

I thought you knew by now not to try to teach me.  Native Chinese proficiency does not make a self-taught taiji fan an expert or a master, anymore than English proficiency makes one the queen of England or Noam Chomsky, .  

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

I thought you knew by now not to try to teach me. 

Haha I knew this long time ago since day one! Yes, English explanations always contradict the Chinese version. Something always got lost in the translation. Besides, each master always tell things differently. Anyway, I am glad that you are happy of what you had been told and felt. I will stay with my non-English version of thoughts. Peace ✌🏼 

[steve]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Of course, all methods of Fajin are external. How can anyone expect it to be internal?

 

Don't mistake the external appearance for the internal 勁. 

By internal, I do not mean anything that is woo-woo or unmeasurable. Internal can simply refer to all of the things that are happening in the mind/body, the physics and anatomy, that combine to generate the resulting force/strength that is not necessarily visible to the eye. It is easy and convenient to describe techniques by their external appearance but that does not capture the essence of the 勁.

Anyone can hold their forearm up and push it outward - that is not the 勁, it is not 掤.

掤 is the force or strength that results from a particular and precise way of using the mind/body.

None of the eight methods are limited to a particular posture, direction, or body part, they describe energetics that are very flexible and lend themselves to infinite variations once understood.

 

[ChiDragon]

30 minutes ago, steve said:

掤 is the force or strength that results from a particular and precise way of using the mind/body.

I think that is the fallacy most people thought that 掤 is an energy or strength. I have made that every clear that it is not. It is a name that was given to the method of Fajin for the posture. Ofc all the actions of the body parts are controlled by the mind.

 

PS

To be exact, 掤 is equivalent to the gesture of 野马分鬃。

Edited 10 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Master Logray]

There are several dimensions of Jin.  The basic dimension is how to increase the force one has and, as important,  able to concentrate it into a single point.  The 8 big Jin are applications of the Jin as Steve said.  They can be applied with any part of the body and in any way.   The third one, which is not visible and often ignored, is to prepare or create the environment for the Jin to apply.   e.g. the user needs to dislodge the balance of the opponent and thereon he can throw him away long.  Otherwise, the skill, the Chi can only increase the force of a person to a  certain extent only.   Taichi experts cannot be automatically become powerful weight lifters.   

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I was talking about the methods of Fajin. How to use them in an application is a different discussion. 

Edited 10 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

The only "external" thing about fajin is that you release the force externally instead of circulating and returning it to the interior as you normally do with your qi when practicing taiji.  It fully depends on internal processes, the difference being that when you don't use fajin they remain internal throughout the practice and your qi is not lost -- whereas when you fajin you do spend some, especially when you initiate it instead of waiting to use the opponent's.  (That's fully legit provided you don't do it often.) 

 

I've seen it in situations where, e.g., two equal-skill level (high middle) and equal stubbornness level practitioners, in push-hands, were standing against each other for some thirty, forty minutes, hands touching, stance perfect, rooting equally solid, just listening for the opening...  and neither one offered an opening.  So to the less-than-clueful observer they were doing nothing the whole time.  And to the one with a clue, it was a battle of wills in full force.  (Of course both were women, the patient gender.)  The workshop participants started making bets as to which one will lose patience first and initiate something.  (I don't know how it ended because I was busy with my own tuishou partners, I think I went through a dozen in the same time they were trying to NOT fajin first...  'cause every time I was done with the next partner, I'd sneak a peak and those stubborn girls were still in the same position, unmovable like statues. )