Fajin (發勁), executing an explosive force

[ChiDragon]

18 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The eight methods of Fajin using different parts of the body indicated as follows:
1. 掤(peng) : Using one forearm sideways to push out and upward

2. 捋(lu) : Using the palms moving laterally 

3. 挤(ji) : Using the back of the hands pushing forward

4. 按(an) : Using both the palms and arms in the up position with the upper torso moving forward, using the waist as leverage.

5. 采(ca) : Using the fingers holding the wrist and the elbow of the opponent moving downward.

6. 挒(lie) : Using both forearms to blocking the incoming force.

7. 肘(zhou) : Using the elbow to push the opponent when close in contact 

8. 靠(kao) : Using the shoulder to push the opponent away 

Please read. These are the methods of Fajin. It is the description of how Jin was issued to be more effective under different circumstances. 

 

PS

These are only gestures, by learning them without practicing Taiji for sometime will lead you nowhere.

Edited 11 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

24 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Taichi experts cannot be automatically become powerful weight lifters.   

Are sure about that? Isn't that the Jin will build in your body from the diligent practice to increase your strength. It is automatically make you stronger than before. If you are able to Fajin, then, you are able to lift more weights than before. 

[Master Logray]

18 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I've seen it in situations where, e.g., two equal-skill level (high middle) and equal stubbornness level practitioners, in push-hands, were standing against each other for some thirty, forty minutes, hands touching, stance perfect, rooting equally solid, just listening for the opening...  and neither one offered an opening.  

 

I watched it - a Stephen Chow movie.  He and a gangster head immobilized for very long during a duel.  The gangsters were initially ready to fight but nothing happened so they resort to smoke, joke, eat, call others....

[Master Logray]

6 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Are sure about that? Isn't that the Jin will build in your body from the diligent practice to increase your strength. It is automatically make you stronger than before. If you are able to Fajin, then, you are able to lift more weights than before. 

 

Stronger than previously only.   Taichi fighters never compete in weight lifting.  Many Kung Fu are "巧勁" - tricks Jin, as per Jin Rong 金庸。

 

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Stronger than previously only.   Taichi fighters never compete in weight lifting. 

Never say never, it still can be done if one wants to! You can try arm wrestling with someone with equal weight or little more than you. You can Fajin with your arm and regulate your breathing. I bet you can win!

Edited 11 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

18 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

I watched it - a Stephen Chow movie.  He and a gangster head immobilized for very long during a duel.  The gangsters were initially ready to fight but nothing happened so they resort to smoke, joke, eat, call others....

 

Life imitates art, eh?  

[ChiDragon]

42 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I'd sneak a peak and those stubborn girls were still in the same position, unmovable like statues. )  

So, they are not actually doing tuishou, but testing each other's patience. 

[ChiDragon]

24 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Stronger than previously only. 

Isn't that progress made from your practice. Now, you have developed some Jin in your body. You have a Taiji body now. Aren't you happy about that?

[Taomeow]

48 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

So, they are not actually doing tuishou, but testing each other's patience. 

 

There's as many ways to do tuishou as there are components to mastering it.  Their way was quite expert -- they used ting jin to listen for any tension in the opponent's body which they could use, or the weakening of the root, or the opponent getting ready to attack, or a myriad other things.  Everything matters in ting jin -- including subtleties of breathing pattern, heartbeat (sic), the irises of the eyes, but primarily of course the touch.  I've pushed hands with each of these women (one was a taiji classmate, the other one a regular at our workshops and co-author of several taiji books) and I know that nothing like their encounter with each other ever happened in their encounters with me.  Both are aggressive and ambitious -- something I am not, so I could use it against them -- and very, very dedicated to practice, which made pushing hands with them not as easy-peasy as it would be with someone aggressive, ambitious and slacking.  But they did have the skill to discern the level of skill in the opponent -- instantly, like all experienced practitioners! -- inferior, superior, or about equal.  When it's about equal, which was the case between those two, things can get...  um...  uninteresting to the clueless outside observer. 

 

You've never done tuishou, have you?       

[steve]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

To be exact, 掤 is equivalent to the gesture of 野马分鬃。

 

I'll have to disagree here.

野马分鬃 is an example of a specific technique making use of 掤勁 but the two are not exactly equivalent.

There are many ways to use 掤勁 that are not 野马分鬃. In addition, 野马分鬃 is not limited to 掤勁 and can also express 挒勁 or 靠勁 among others. 

Edited 9 hours ago by steve

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

You've never done tuishou, have you?

I wouldn't say never. I have done it with an expert who gave me some guidance. I had gone to some push-hand group. However, I couldn't blend in with them. It is because when they do push-hand, they meant push hands and pushing real hard. That was not how I was taught by my Taiji teacher. BTW Based on your words, I believe that you know what you are doing.

Edited 9 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

23 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I'll have to disagree here.

野马分鬃 is an example of a specific technique making use of 掤勁 but the two are not exactly equivalent.

There are many ways to use 掤勁 that are not 野马分鬃. In addition, 野马分鬃 is not limited to 掤勁 and can also express 挒勁 or 靠勁 among others. 

I don't know have you done any investigation. Anyway, 靠 is done with the shoulder, not with the hands. I am not here arguing what is not or what not. I am only describing the methods of Fajin. The methods，only the methods known and defined by the Chinese masters. However, what others think is not my concern. 

 

There are too many fallacies out there, I can't argue with everyone to say what is right or wrong?

Edited 9 hours ago by ChiDragon

[steve]

8 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I don't know have you done any investigation.

 

Yes, I've studied with two masters (one in Yang and Chen Pan Ling styles, one in Chen style) beginning around 2003, competed in many tournaments, read a few books on the subject, and did some workshops with other masters here and there. I taught for my shifu for about 12 years, mostly taijiquan but also some xingyiquan and qigong. I spent years working through all of the taijiquan forms (solo and two-person) and tui shou techniques we were taught with my training partner and we made all kinds of discoveries about the possible applications of the various postures. 

 

I'm not arguing, just sharing my understanding. Ignore my posts if you aren't interested but others may be. If you look a bit more closely at 野马分鬃 (meaning practice the movement and the possible applications, preferably with a partner) you will find it contains many possibilities - 靠 and 挒 are both implied in the posture, as is 掤 of course. With a little imagination, and depending on the opponent and type of attack, there are other possibilities, such as 捋, 采, and 肘. It's good to start with the basic posture and a single intention. Over time it is good to be open minded and creative and look for all possibilities. Every technique has obvious, hidden, and secret applications just waiting to be discovered by a dedicated student. My teacher would show one or two and expect us to discover what we can through diligent practice. The best students would be rewarded through their hard work and investigation, shifu didn't just spoon feed us. 

 

 

[Taomeow]

29 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I wouldn't say never. I have done it with an expert who gave me some guidance. I had gone to some push-hand group. However, I couldn't blend in with them. It is because when they do push-hand, they meant push hands and pushing real hard

 

As a reggae song goes,

The harder they come, the harder they fall, one and all.   

 

Too bad you didn't have better luck with finding a group to your specs.

 

31 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

BTW Based on your words, I believe that you know what you are doing.

 

 Thank you.  I credit my master, my grandmaster and the other three of the Four Tigers of Chenjiagou, as well as my practice partners and students with giving me a bit of a clue over the years.   

[ChiDragon]

21 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1tmm9Y4E4g/?spm_id_from=888.80997.embed_other.whitelist&t=17.474235&bvid=BV1tmm9Y4E4g

@steve
I don't know can see going into this site. If you do, please look at:

@ 00:17  掤 resembles the gesture of 野馬分鬃. It is using the hand.
@00:30 挒 is using the hand to Fajin. 
@00:35 is the gesture of 靠. It is only using the shoulder.

Yes, I agree that 掤 and 挒 are using one hand to Fajin but not 靠.
This is, only, my argument no more or less. Please don't say more to confuse the issue.

Edited 8 hours ago by ChiDragon

[liminal_luke]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

  Native Chinese proficiency does not make a self-taught taiji fan an expert or a master, anymore than English proficiency makes one the queen of England or Noam Chomsky, .  

 

The subject of this thread is beyond me (so please excuse the interruption), but I´m grateful that my abilities in English, such as they are, have not turned me into the queen of England or Noam Chomsky.

[liminal_luke]

double post

Edited 8 hours ago by liminal_luke

[steve]

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

@steve
I don't know can see going into this site. If you do, please look at:

@ 00.17  掤 resembles the gesture of 野馬分鬃. 
@00.35 is the gesture of 靠. It is only using the shoulder.

This is, only, my argument no more or less. Please don't say more to confuse the issue.

 

Yes, I could see the video. Peng does resemble ye ma fen zong and kao does involve the shoulder. 

If that is your understanding and you want to leave it there, I am happy to accommodate you.

 

Spoiler

For anyone else interested in more info, I'll share a bit more. Peng is one aspect of the ye ma fen zong technique, it enhances the structure and efficacy. One application of ye ma fen zong is to first bump with the shoulder (kao), this will loosen the opponent's root. Then as you express peng through the forward arm and turn the waist, you throw the opponent off balance. A somewhat trickier application can involve deflecting a strike and grabbing the wrist. You can then use cai or lu to destabilize, bump with the shoulder to uproot, and follow through with peng and waist turn to throw or knock the opponent over. Ye ma fen zong also can express lie, a splitting or tearing type force that sort of causes the opponent's incoming force to be split into different directions, totally disrupting their stability and attack. So many possibilities in such a simple movement. 

 

[ChiDragon]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Native Chinese proficiency does not make a self-taught taiji fan an expert or a master, anymore than English proficiency makes one the queen of England or Noam Chomsky,

Ofc it's not. At least, the consistency in the language is always there.

[ChiDragon]

33 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

@steve
I don't know can see going into this site. If you do, please look at:

@ 00:17  掤 resembles the gesture of 野馬分鬃. It is using the hand.
@00:30 挒 is using the hand to Fajin. 
@00:35 is the gesture of 靠. It is only using the shoulder.

Yes, I agree that 掤 and 挒 are using one hand to Fajin but not 靠.
This is, only, my argument no more or less. Please don't say more to confuse the issue.

@steve
I had edited. In case you have missed.

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

The subject of this thread is beyond me (so please excuse the interruption), but I´m grateful that my abilities in English, such as they are, have not turned me into the queen of England or Noam Chomsky.

 

Of course I meant the queen of England when she was young and feisty (rumor has it she used to hit and punch the king -- but not with taiji -- back then), and Noam Chomsky when he was a linguist whose Transformational Grammar I studied at the university many moons ago, rather than a political sellout to ___________ (not filling in the blank to avoid the dreaded politicizing of the thread).  The first one then did (rumor has it) something I wouldn't mind being able to do myself, and the second turned the English language upside down and inside out for me, which was quite beneficial for my then-budding ability.   So don't dismiss them without consideration...  although neither one did anything for my taiji...  oh and all the taiji reading material, whether in English or not, didn't do that much either beyond giving me the ability to engage in taiji parlance...  most folks in my lineage who practiced and developed it for the previous 400 years were illiterate to begin with.            

[Krenx]

 

This is good push hands, Jin refinement, good fajin practice. 

 

You notice the effects of the Jin happens mostly in the one getting issued, not the one expressing the jin. 

 

If you do fajin, and the Jin ends up affecting your own body in large or forceful movements more then the opponent, then it is a sign the  force has been largely not transmitted into the opponent. 

 

The goal is to issue jin, and the opponent is displaced and moved significantly more then your movement. And that difference in who moves, and who remain still, increases relative to your skill. 

 

All the classics, teachings you hear, the expected results points to this gradual quality.

Edited 4 hours ago by Krenx