Saruman's Demise

[Sanity Check]

 

In the LOTR book trilogy, there is a good wizard named Saruman who is seduced by evil.

 

While Saruman's magic power isn't well defined. It is illustrated that one of his abilities is influencing others into believing everything he says is true. Whatever Saruman says, is what people believe.

 

Late in the story, Saruman's tower is attacked by treeborn Ents and the area becomes flooded with water. Saruman's situation is desperate.

 

In his desperation, Saruman unwisely abuses his power and overexerts himself, shattering his own magic. 

 

This has always been interesting to me. Saruman was never directly defeated in combat or war. Instead his story is that of a wizard who apparently defeats themselves.

 

Is this something that actually happens in the real world? Or is it merely fiction? 

 

How did JRR Tolkien come by this plot twist.

 

Long story short, people say I waste my time paying attention to fictional stories. Maybe they're right. 

Or perhaps there is something that might be learned at times?

Edited yesterday at 03:05 AM by Sanity Check

[Nungali]

It is a well known writer's theme because , guess what ?   People like to read about others they consider have more 'power'  (in various ways ) and their  misuse of the power  causing their demise . 

 

https://www.bartleby.com/essay/Literature-with-the-theme-of-self-destruction-PKXZPNL36ZYA

 

 

Macbeth would be the classic example . Regarding specifically 'wizards'  ,  Faust by Marlow ( although there is a variation of end theme in Goethe's version)   is probably the classic example .  The other would be ' "Der Zauberlehrling'  by Goethe . 

 

Or you could watch 'The Sorcerer's Apprentice' segment from 'Fantasia'     

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Master Logray]

Saruman's corruption probably came from owning a property.   His tower needs lots of resources to build and maintain.   Other wizards like Gandalf lived poorly.  Even the Rohan King didn't have a proper palace.   Owning huge property is not good for maintaining spiritual development.

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Saruman's corruption probably came from owning a property.   His tower needs lots of resources to build and maintain.   Other wizards like Gandalf lived poorly.  Even the Rohan King didn't have a proper palace.   Owning huge property is not good for maintaining spiritual development.

Hobbits had holes.

[Apech]

8 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

In the LOTR book trilogy, there is a good wizard named Saruman who is seduced by evil.

 

While Saruman's magic power isn't well defined. It is illustrated that one of his abilities is influencing others into believing everything he says is true. Whatever Saruman says, is what people believe.

 

Late in the story, Saruman's tower is attacked by treeborn Ents and the area becomes flooded with water. Saruman's situation is desperate.

 

In his desperation, Saruman unwisely abuses his power and overexerts himself, shattering his own magic. 

 

This has always been interesting to me. Saruman was never directly defeated in combat or war. Instead his story is that of a wizard who apparently defeats themselves.

 

Is this something that actually happens in the real world? Or is it merely fiction? 

 

How did JRR Tolkien come by this plot twist.

 

Long story short, people say I waste my time paying attention to fictional stories. Maybe they're right. 

Or perhaps there is something that might be learned at times?

He changed ‘white’ into many colours… representing his disintegration?

[stirling]

12 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

This has always been interesting to me. Saruman was never directly defeated in combat or war. Instead his story is that of a wizard who apparently defeats themselves.

This is the human story. The more contrived and labyrinthine our plans to define and get what we think will make us happy are, the more likely they are to lead us through the fall of everything we have built up in its pursuit FIRST.

 

Brings to mind some quotes from the Tsin Tsin Ming, by Seng T'san.
 

Quote

 

The Way is perfect like vast space
where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.

 

Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject
that we do not see the true nature of things.
 

-

 

The more you talk and think about it,
the further astray you wander from the truth.

 

Stop talking and thinking
and there is nothing you will not be able to know.

 

To return to the root is to find the meaning,
but to pursue appearances is to miss the source.

 

At the moment of inner enlightenment,
there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness. - Tsin Tsin Ming, Seng T'san

 

 

https://terebess.hu/english/hsin.html#3

 

...and, thematically perfect, The Tower card in the Rider Waite tarot deck:

 

[Jenn]

I think in a roundabout way you usually defeat yourself, even if your "demise" is seemingly at the hands of others.

 

Oppress, cheat, scam, manipulate, extort, seize power, exploit, abuse, horde resources, flaunt, harm, etc.

 

Create a lot hate, don't be surprised if one day that hate brings you down. No one really invests effort into destroying a some nobody that keeps to themselves. But the more that hate you, the more "enemies" you have, the more people and energy that build up against you, better hope you don't waver or become overwhelmed by what you created. 

 

One might be defeated by an enemy - but why do you have enemies in the first place? You can't control a lot of things that might bring about your "end" - those are risks everyone carries, but you can absolutely decide to not add more fuel to your pyre by choosing a little decency. 

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

Hobbits had holes.

 

Ah ...  but a hole is where the property  'isn't' .   

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Saruman's corruption probably came from owning a property.   His tower needs lots of resources to build and maintain.   Other wizards like Gandalf lived poorly.  Even the Rohan King didn't have a proper palace.   Owning huge property is not good for maintaining spiritual development.

 

I can affirm this as I live on a commune ... or did .  Now they are called 'intentional community ' by new age hipsters . We had a very solid base of no individual land ownership ... no 'owning property' .  It worked well . Any of those expenses were shared by everyone , we all chipped in  $30 a week each to keep  things running, pay expenses, machinery and maintenance , community facilities , rates and taxes, road structure , water and electricity  and  would also put 10% of our income towards some cause or charity each month .

 

40 years later it is still $30 a week !    But sneaky insidious human nature  reared its ugly head in some ... and now most 'new people' , not only do they not consider or even comprehend giving anyone else some of our money but some want to privately ' own' their parcel of land ... a little while back I had to sit in on a dispute  between some of these  new ( as they call themselves )  'women on the land '  as when one was on holidays , her neighbor dug up a few plants and moved them , along with the fence line , 10 mt to the east to gain  some  of 'her' site .  

 

Now its all  ......   Mathew 23:  27 - 28 .    

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

This is the human story. The more contrived and labyrinthine our plans to define and get what we think will make us happy are, the more likely they are to lead us through the fall of everything we have built up in its pursuit FIRST.

 

Brings to mind some quotes from the Tsin Tsin Ming, by Seng T'san.
 

 

https://terebess.hu/english/hsin.html#3

 

...and, thematically perfect, The Tower card in the Rider Waite tarot deck:

 

 

 

That aint the RW Deck . 

[Nungali]

I cant decide if it is good or bad . 

 

On one hand , people are getting dumber  and have no comprehensions of classic themes and teachings . Some new story or movie or even ;game; comes out that copies or mimics the theme  and those that only know pop go wow this amazing  and get some revelation from a comic book . Somehow its wincingly painful .

 

But at least they are now exposed to  / familiar with those themes .   But it gets worse ..... a fully adult woman once commented to me in  smirking judgmental way that I listen to 'cartoon music '   (as the piece had been used in a classic Disney cartoon and she was unaware of the original )  , so now I am the dork as I listen to cartoon music , and she is clever as she recognized where it was from . 

 

My  God ..... society is going imbecilic !   

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

This is the human story. The more contrived and labyrinthine our plans to define and get what we think will make us happy are, the more likely they are to lead us through the fall of everything we have built up in its pursuit FIRST.

 

Brings to mind some quotes from the Tsin Tsin Ming, by Seng T'san.
 

 

https://terebess.hu/english/hsin.html#3

 

...and, thematically perfect, The Tower card in the Rider Waite tarot deck:

 

 

Anyway this is only half the process and its the same in the RW version .  But where does that leave us ?   ... there is no resurrection or rebirth  - its a failed initiation where the candidate has died  from the ordeal . 

 

The wisdom cited  by Ming does not do this  as it offers an alternative  it isnt just about destruction . 

 

This is one of the many reasons I prefer  the way the mysteries are presented in Thoth deck , they are constructed by someone that understood the processes and just didnt copy someone else's cards . 

 

 

 

 

Destruction at the base , old / mistaken concepts and illusions falling away , yet I draw attention to the  dove and serpent rising from the ruins  and the 'all seeing eye' now opened . 

 

I won't go deeply into as it can be explained in one  line ; 

 

''  Break down the fortress of thine Individual Self, that thy Truth may spring free from the ruins. '' 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Anyway this is only half the process and its the same in the RW version .  But where does that leave us ?   ... there is no resurrection or rebirth  - its a failed initiation where the candidate has died  from the ordeal .

 

I'm no expert... merely a dilettante, but my understanding seems good enough:

 

Quote

This card follows immediately after The Devil in all tarots that contain it, and is associated with sudden, disruptive revelation, and potentially destructive change.

-

 For example, it may be a reference to the biblical story of the Tower of Babel, where God destroys a tower built by mankind to reach Heaven.

-

The Tower is widely associated to danger, crisis, sudden change, destruction, higher learning, and liberation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tower_(tarot_card)

 

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

The wisdom cited  by Ming does not do this  as it offers an alternative  it isnt just about destruction .

 

The Tsin Tsin Ming quotes are about not trying to contrive reality - the prescription for not building a "tower" in the first place.

 

_/\_

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I'm no expert... merely a dilettante, but my understanding seems good enough:

 

  

 

 

Quote

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tower_(tarot_card)

 

A curious entry in that, the  description  ( the 'wiki words' ) encompasses what I said , in regard to its use of words like ;  ' disruptive revelation,  change , sudden change, higher learning and liberation '  yet the decks and imagery cited and described only point to the negative . 

 

So where did the author get the positive aspects from ?  Grey and Butler one assumes . 

 

Quote

 

The Tsin Tsin Ming quotes are about not trying to contrive reality - the prescription for not building a "tower" in the first place.

 

_/\_

 

 

Sometimes we dont 'try to contrive reality at all '  .... it is thrust upon us by conditioning  and that outcome then seems natural . It is also considered natural by the 'conditioners' . 

 

I think any prescriptions for not building a tower in the first place would need to be started  not long after birth .