are spiritual masters involved in politics

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Paradoxal said:

Advocating is good, but creating an entire political system, leading revolution, or steering the world from a seat of political power, even for the sake of the unfortunate, is inherently an egotistical act. It generates many karmic links, does harm, and will inevitably be corrupted by time. This is wonderful for the physical world, but again, not the act of a spiritual master.

 

Masters are NOT administrators. 

[stirling]

14 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

a related question for me is does the teacher walk the talk.  Looking at a teacher's actions and behavior in daily life.  If a teacher claims to help people with addiction, but chain smokes and drinks then their clients and students are going to question the  benefits and effectiveness that teacher can offer.

 

What matters is whether the teacher has attachment or aversion to smoking or drinking. Chogyam Trungpa was a famously heavy drinker, but only a fool would question the depth of his understanding or teachings. His book "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" is a stark but kind bitchslap that many people could use. 

 

Ultimately the fabric of this "universe" is a mirror for each of us, showing us our attachments, aversions and where we are stuck in our solidified ideas about how things have to be. For some, it will takesa smoking, drinking teacher to wake us up and see that what we are seeking is deeper than the facade of the human that might be presenting the teachings. 

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

The most realized teachers are calm, kind, thoughtful, and humorous. They are unperturbed by almost any NORMAL life circumstances.

 

what is the saying, it's easy to be "calm kind thoughtful humorous" in normal life circitumstances.  Anyone can do that. But the whole point of spiritual mastery or having a toolbox of spiritual practices, is to be that way when life circumstances are NOT normal.

 

Edited yesterday at 04:18 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

 

Quote

 I personally think it is good to see someone you respect handle a difficult situation with aplomb, even when the first thing they say is, "Shit!". Emotions should come and go like rain, or the tide, or the sunset. They are manifestations of impermanence that don't ultimately belong to a person.

 

Bold above is a red flag when is is used to justify bad behavior rather than taking resonsibility for it.  It perpetuates and propagates and condones bad behavior  instead of demonstrating accountabilitiy.   Every emotion, thought, speech, action a person has absolutely belongs to that person and they are 100% responsible for it.  If someone is hot-headed and prone to fits of rage for instance, those absolutely belong to the person.  And they are 100% accountable for their actions that flow from that.  

 

 If a teacher doubles down and does not take responsibility, accountability, and ownership for their speech and actions and emotions and feelings; or if the students double down for the teacher.  That is not mastery.  It is making excuses.

 

example: a teacher who also is called Master in their milieu vents in print online and in their newsletter, at length, their anger rage hate insults.  Someone called this behavior out, saying it was not a good public look for a teacher and Master and the product he represents.    There were students who defended the behavior by saying he was "just standing up for his values" and "it's OK because he is fighting for his beliefs"  "he wants to instill that same value in us."  That is doubling down and not seeing anything wrong with the behavior.  

 

I have a mechanic who works on my truck,  a small business i buy toothcare products from, and a cordial neighbor, all of whom express that way  and it is not a problem.  I associate with them,  they can be extreme and obnoxious and virulent in stating their opinions,  however there is harmony in our  interactions.  But i sure as heck don't look to any of them, or anyone with that behavior, for guidance, lessons, or teachings in any level of spiritual mastery.  Because they don't have it.

 

 

Quote

 Where there is an hour, or a day of non-stop fretting and worry watching such a teacher closely or offering to help is not only human, but the reply should be illuminating. 

 

I'm not understanding this part, but would like to.

Thank you.

[BigSkyDiamond]

this is a valid measure and guideline:  you can only take your clients (or students) as far as you have gone yourself.

expressions of rage, hatred, insults, virulent venting

demonstrate they haven't gotten very far

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

What matters is whether the teacher has attachment or aversion to smoking or drinking. Chogyam Trungpa was a famously heavy drinker, but only a fool would question the depth of his understanding or teachings. His book "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" is a stark but kind bitchslap that many people could use. 

 

Ultimately the fabric of this "universe" is a mirror for each of us, showing us our attachments, aversions and where we are stuck in our solidified ideas about how things have to be. For some, it will takesa smoking, drinking teacher to wake us up and see that what we are seeking is deeper than the facade of the human that might be presenting the teachings. 

 

 

the post above touches on an important and related issue.  It would make for a great thread topic for additional discussion.  Regarding when a religious leader engages in violence, abuse, rape, molestation, substance abuse, assault.  How do followers respond, how do ex-followers respond,  how that cycle continues unchecked until it is brought to light and addressed.  And whether onlookers years or decades later condone and defend this behavior.

 

"

"a movement of ex-followers who say that ______'s public image as a spiritual genius has been used to hide a legacy of deception, exploitation, behavioural control, and systemic abuse. Their activism has organized around ______'s son, _____, who eventually inherited his father’s empire and,  began to face his own public allegations of physical violence and sexual assault.  Fifty ex-members interviewed tell  stories of every type of mistreatment imaginable, from emotional manipulation and extreme neglect to molestation and rape—stories that turn ______'s brand narrative, with its promises of utopia, upside down. the group’s name has been shortened to 'Sham.' "

 

Edited yesterday at 05:16 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

27 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

 

the post above touches on an important and related issue.  It would make for a great thread topic for additional discussion.  Regarding when a religious leader engages in violence, abuse, rape, molestation, substance abuse, assault.  How do followers respond, how do ex-followers respond,  how that cycle continues unchecked until it is brought to light and addressed.  And whether onlookers years or decades later condone and defend this behavior.

 

Questions for anyone:

• If a religious leader or teacher engages in the behaviors above in bold, are they a spiritual master?
• Do the behaviors in bold above demonstrate spiritual mastery?
• How does it color or affect your views of their teachings?

Edited yesterday at 05:23 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[stirling]

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

what is the saying, it's easy to be "calm kind thoughtful humorous" in normal life circitumstances.  Anyone can do that. But the whole point of spiritual mastery or having a toolbox of spiritual practices, is to be that way when life circumstances are NOT normal.

 

Let me put it this way: Most of us are quite convinced that Santa Claus isn't likely to be visiting this December because we now understand that it was just a story our parents told us.  That knowledge is true no matter WHAT events take place in our day to day life, regardless of how difficult they are. So it is with understanding of the Dao.

 

Quote

Bold above is a red flag when is is used to justify bad behavior rather than taking resonsibility for it.  It perpetuates and propagates and condones bad behavior  instead of demonstrating accountabilitiy.   Every emotion, thought, speech, action a person has absolutely belongs to that person and they are 100% responsible for it.  If someone is hot-headed and prone to fits of rage for instance, those absolutely belong to the person.  And they are 100% accountable for their actions that flow from that. 

 

I stand by what I said above 100%. "Self" is a pernicious delusion that is at the heart of our suffering. Once that delusion is understood it is always present, regardless of how one behaves. The knowledge does not create a perfect "person", but does alter one's behavior substantially. 

 

Justification is a different issue. What we are talking about here is "spiritual bypassing" - using real or imagined "enlightenment" as some justification that all behaviors are "perfect" is delusion. Gnostic knowledge does not excuse bad behavior. This sort of teacher is deficient in compassion training. Any teacher that acts in a questionable manner would call it out immediately and correct themselves, or submit to correction at whatever level necessary. Again - it doesn't mean that they aren't enlightened necessarily. It takes many years after "awakening" to drop the most pernicious aspects of "self". Some things never go away. Some will never be teachers, and it isn't important that they ever are.

 

An understanding of the Dao is always present, even when anger arises, and a master with no "self" may witness anger arise in the body, but not experience that as "self", or "mine". 

 

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

I'm not understanding this part, but would like to.

 

It's just plain human and kind to open up to those you see struggling, even a "master", if you have a close enough relationship. What could be learned about the teacher's process in examining their feelings and thoughts about a sticky issue? If this person really knows that all appearances are ultimately "empty", possibly a lot.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Questions for anyone:

• If a religious leader or teacher engages in the behaviors above in bold, are they a spiritual master?
• Do the behaviors in bold above demonstrate spiritual mastery?
• How does it color or affect your views of their teachings?

 

sounds like you described Osho in Oregon...

 

btw it also sounds like you are grinding a big ax?

 

Edited 23 hours ago by old3bob

[liminal_luke]

It´s true, as Old3bob has suggested, that spirituality and politics are interconnected, because, well, everything´s interconnected.  It´s also true that a person can have an opinion on Trump or Gaza or gun control laws and decide not to share it in deference to forum rules.

[BigSkyDiamond]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

bitchslap that many people could use. 

 

case in point

[Apech]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s true, as Old3bob has suggested, that spirituality and politics are interconnected, because, well, everything´s interconnected.  It´s also true that a person can have an opinion on Trump or Gaza or gun control laws and decide not to share it in deference to forum rules.

 

I like the way you slipped the T word in there.  This is a bit like sending drones in to soak up the Iron Dome before hitting it with hypersonics.  Moderators sleep ... but with one eye open

 

 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s true, as Old3bob has suggested, that spirituality and politics are interconnected, because, well, everything´s interconnected.  It´s also true that a person can have an opinion on Trump or Gaza or gun control laws and decide not to share it in deference to forum rules.

 

people can have reams of hard proven, undeniable facts covering a wide array of issues from reliable and respected sources or from first hand witness's about what a perpetrator has repeatedly gotten away with over for a long periods of time.  Such facts are far more than what should not just to be written off as opinions or tit for tat banter,  why - because a great number of people, places and things have been seriously harmed, yet the perpetrator has never really been held accountable!!

Edited 19 hours ago by old3bob

[Apech]

4 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Questions for anyone:

• If a religious leader or teacher engages in the behaviors above in bold, are they a spiritual master?
• Do the behaviors in bold above demonstrate spiritual mastery?
• How does it color or affect your views of their teachings?

 

I can answer from the point of view of Vajrayana which I practice.

 

If you have followed proper procedure, observed your teacher for about 12 years before deciding he/she is learned in the dharma, has realisation and follows proper ethical conduct ... and then with growing confidence have received empowerments from them which include samaya vows, have practiced guru-yoga in which one views the teacher as a perfect Buddha and so on.  You are effectively bound by the vows you have taken.  This is a serious matter and goes well beyond any normal human to human interaction.

 

Then, unfortunately for you, your teacher is found to have committed sexual misconduct etc.  then you are within the framework of guru-yoga required (since you have samaya vows) to regard his/her behaviour as a kind of test ... that the perfect Buddha is teaching you something profound.  This does not mean though that if asked by them, you have to engage in such acts, since the dharma teachings on this point say you should refuse to do so saying such things are undharmic.  It does not mean you should brush said behaviours under the carpet, you should if appropriate report such things to the police for instance (with the awareness that this too is part of the teaching and while holding on to the bond with your teacher).  They remain as far as you are concerned a spiritual master.

 

I know this is hard to understand but it illustrates that the vajrayana is a difficult path and that you should stick to the other yanas if you think this would be too difficult to stomach.  

 

Do their behaviours demonstrate spiritual mastery?  No but yes but maybe.  On the one hand they are unacceptable and should be addressed as I said above.  But if you read the lives of the mahasiddhas you will find that did all kinds of things which would make you gasp.  What Tilopa did to Naropa for instance.  Now ok these were already very advanced practitioners but again if they did it today they would certainly be in prison (not that they would give a damn about that) - and justly so.  Having said this, we don't live in the extraordinary times of great yogis - so generally you can be sure that the acts you hear about or observe are not spiritual mastery.

 

How does it colour our view of their teachings?  It gives us a big, big problem which is a teaching in itself.  In one sense these things are clearly undharmic.  We can say to ourselves clearly why that might be.  Not just shock horror at the thought of it - but clearly and rationally what is it that breaks the vows and so on.  From this we can learn a lot.  But on another level the shock to ourselves might be the teaching.  It could be quite ego smashing to go through this kind of thing - if you yourself are committed practitioner.  As it says in Lo Jong 'turn everything on to the path'.  When you sign up to the bodhisattva way it is not for a safe and gentle ride.  It might be a series of shocks.  From the other point of view it is quite possible for someone who is quite off the path to deliver a talk which perfectly follows the dharma.  If so would you throw those teaching away if you found he was sleeping with his students? 

 

The last point to make - which may sound a little trite but is necessarily true - is that the teacher, the lama or guru is simply an external focal point for you to get to know your own buddha-nature.  It is this that you are relating to fundamentally.  Provided this is what you are doing the rest doesn't matter.  

 

 

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s true, as Old3bob has suggested, that spirituality and politics are interconnected, because, well, everything´s interconnected.  It´s also true that a person can have an opinion on Trump or Gaza or gun control laws and decide not to share it in deference to forum rules.

 

33 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I like the way you slipped the T word in there.  This is a bit like sending drones in to soak up the Iron Dome before hitting it with hypersonics.  Moderators sleep ... but with one eye open

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

people can have reams of hard proven, undeniable facts covering a wide array of issues from reliable and respected sources or from first hand witness's that a perpetrator has repeatedly gotten away with over for a long periods of time,  and such facts are far more than what should not just to be written off as opinions or tit for tat banter,  why - because a great number of people, places and things have been seriously harmed, yet the perpetrator has never really been held accountable!!

 

Perhaps you´re right, Apech, perhaps you´re right.  

 

Edited 19 hours ago by liminal_luke

[stirling]

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

case in point

 

I can see how you could take exception, and apologize if I have offended you - but why don't we go ahead and use it as you suggest? Would you be open to explaining what you mean by that?

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

just testing 1, 2, 3,  testing 1 ,2, 3 seems to be working today, although approval need is still in force ;-)

 

 

Ahhhhh ... but who edited it ????? 

 

Gets approval posts it ... then  edits it   

 

Please send you edits to Apech for pre approval   

 

( so he can give me another face palm  

 

PS  ya know even though they be down votes or face palms ... they still count as 'likes' in one's tally         )  

 

 

Tally - Ho !  

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

100%!

 

For the record, I'd argue any spiritual teacher who got deeply tangled in politics is by definition not a spiritual master... 

Of course, that includes Jesus, Mohammad, the many popes, Confucius, Ghandi, and every other name dropped in this thread. 

Advocating is good, but creating an entire political system, leading revolution, or steering the world from a seat of political power, even for the sake of the unfortunate, is inherently an egotistical act. It generates many karmic links, does harm, and will inevitably be corrupted by time. This is wonderful for the physical world, but again, not the act of a spiritual master.

 

...then again, this is coming from someone who has no moral qualms in killing/torturing the rich (or any other person who chooses to kill thousands for their pleasure), so perhaps I myself am misled!

 

 

 

I'm sorry ... my eyes could be faulty ..... did you just say you are willing to torture certain people  ?  

 

 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

what is the saying, it's easy to be "calm kind thoughtful humorous" in normal life circitumstances.  Anyone can do that. But the whole point of spiritual mastery or having a toolbox of spiritual practices, is to be that way when life circumstances are NOT normal.

 

 

That seems to represent their accomplishment .   The Bah'i 'prophet'  Baha'u'llah  had to be moved from jail to jail ... and they were very nasty places back in those times , plus remembering that it was a Islamic 'sharia law' jail and he was considered an heretic, religious impostor , fake Mahdi ... etc etc .  A decidedly NOT normal environment .. yet his manner and demenour  ( or 'spiritual presence' ) remaining amidst all they did to him in there , eventually caused admiration and some conversions of the guards .

 

So  they would move him to a different prison (and imprison  the converted guards as well  ) ... but then it would happen again . Eventually he got sent to the prison city at Acre . Eventually they all got 'lax' or a bit more accepting   and  let him out to wander around 

the grounds  and then the general area .   Interesting dynamics as to why but another story .  Eventually a land grant was given to them at Haifa to establish their world HQ 

 

[Krenx]

6 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Questions for anyone:

• If a religious leader or teacher engages in the behaviors above in bold, are they a spiritual master?
• Do the behaviors in bold above demonstrate spiritual mastery?
• How does it color or affect your views of their teachings?

 

The answer is discernment. Discernment of what is right and wrong. If a person has both right and wrong qualities, you discern as such, use that new clarity of discernment, and continue "your" training. 

 

The the measuring tools a Buddhist measure people, are provided by the dhamma/Buddha. And many of these measuring tools go AGAINST the grain and opinions of society. It is by design, as it is a path that leads to dispassion of the world after all. 

 

The Buddha has a very clear separation between a puthujjana(normal worldly person), and an ariya(noble one, who has entered one of the 4 stages of enlightenment). And they posses very specific qualities that clearly sets them apart from each other.  

 

So just in terms of Buddhism, if you follow the early teachings sincerely, and apply that measure of who is a noble one to the many famous "spiritual masters" in history, involved in politics or not. 99% do not make the cut of an ariya. Many are just puthujjanas. Some headed to woeful realms, some headed to human realms, and some headed to heavenly realms. Fyi going to heavenly realms does not necessarily mean they are ariyas/ enlightened. It just mean they have developed lots of good merits.

 

An ariya posseses more conditions on top of good merits, specifically the factor right view, and a character that reflects that. And they do not necessarily become famous. Many are secluded and spend their time abiding in the beautiful sanctuary of a mind they have achieved. 

 

With right view, you can discern the good and bad in anything in the world. You practice discernment, to undo the dust in your eyes, and see reality properly. So a master who you assumed was an ariya, suddenly broke precepts, and seems to have been a puthujjana after all. So you discern what is right in what he taught, and discern what was wrong in his behavior, clarify that mistake, clear up that dust in your eyes, and carry on the good path. 🙏. You are in this path alone at the end of the day. Only you can do this work. Nobody can do it for you. Strive hard. 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

this is a valid measure and guideline:  you can only take your clients (or students) as far as you have gone yourself.

 

I cant agree with that .... I have gone further than some of my teachers . 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

expressions of rage, hatred, insults, virulent venting

demonstrate they haven't gotten very far

 

That's  one indication of how I got further from them  .  I was learning stuff from them, I learnt it , it was good, I still have it .

 

But then one day he  ;  " The solution to that problem is to drop a nuke on them and wipe them all out ! "  

 

Goodbye ... I got  the gold you had to offer . I don't need the dross . 

 

But then again my traditions and teachers have been varied - 'eclectic' .   I don't need to rely on 1 . 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Questions for anyone:

• If a religious leader or teacher engages in the behaviors above in bold, are they a spiritual master?

 

Maybe  ......   are there 'evil spiritual masters '   ?  ... or just  twisted scam artists ?  people that behave in such a way often understand the dynamics of their victims and will slip into what ever role does the job for them . 

 

6 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

• Do the behaviors in bold above demonstrate spiritual mastery?

 

Nah . But obviously these are extremes and rather a clear case .  In other issues , like the ones Stirling gave us .... are they really comparable to this ?  

 

Seems a bit 'over reactive '  ? 

 

 

6 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

• How does it color or affect your views of their teachings?

 

With the stuff  you listed  ....   I call psychotic scammer . 

 

But what would I know ..... I called out Sai Baba here on all that , and I answered all the protests validly   ( eg 'False accusations ! '  ... my answer ' It comes from his devotees themselves who don't seem to have a problem with it .  Not people trying to pull him down  or criticize him . "  One  follower of his even excused  the 'child sex' a;l;negations as baba being 'God ' and how could he judge God's actions   and anything through to 'planting a seed for future Kundalini  activation ' 

 

How does it effect me ?  I become  NOT like the spiritual teacher   that doesn't have  flared up emotions .  I might even freely choose to harness my  flared up emotions  and if need be  , violently    and physically stop him from doing that  ... I would not feel the need to administer torture  though     .....   unless that involved converting his accused wealth into assistance for any one that felt they were one of his victims . 

 

I had to fight here against such  good opinions  some had of him ... How dare you ! he is a well known and accepted spiritual master .... one 'spiritually enlightened ' individual here , that was  touting himself as a teacher  even wanted tio kill me for that , he stated that here and went on to say how he would do that and how much he would delight in that . 

 

He's gone now     .... 

 

Spoiler

 'Terrible accident ..... apparently  ....' 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

sounds like you described Osho in Oregon...

 

btw it also sounds like you are grinding a big ax?

 

 

Part of the Egyptian negative confession  ( via  Normandy Ellis transliteration ) 

 

"  I threw an ax in the face of evil . "  

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I like the way you slipped the T word in there.  This is a bit like sending drones in to soak up the Iron Dome before hitting it with hypersonics.  Moderators sleep ... but with one eye open

 

 

 

Yeah ..... 

 

DONT SAY TRUMP  !  

 

Ohhhh .... 

 

[Lairg]

Of what is the spiritual master, a master?

 

Surely there is more to master than the persona (mask) of a human.

 

How to test for mastery of transpersonal energies?