Physical Postures/Buddhism

[BigSkyDiamond]

On 5/30/2025 at 4:35 PM, Mark Foote said:

You can find my line-by-line on the stanza here, if you're interested:  The Gautamid Offers a Practice. (I edited the piece to remove the reference to the cranial-sacral rhythm and the sphenoid bone--I think the essay still makes sense, and I am  editing these remarks to remove my reference here to the sphenoid bone and the gland that sits in that bone).
 

 

 

I am very much enjoying reading these long-ish posts, there are many points to comment on.  But I gotta ask first regarding section just above, why would these be removed: reference to craniosacral  rhythm and sphenoid?  I am asking because of my background, training, and experience in craniosacral therapy.    Thank you.

Edited June 5 by BigSkyDiamond

[Mark Foote]

On 6/4/2025 at 6:18 PM, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

I am very much enjoying reading these long-ish posts, there are many points to comment on.  But I gotta ask first regarding section just above, why would these be removed: reference to craniosacral  rhythm and sphenoid?  I am asking because of my background, training, and experience in craniosacral therapy.    Thank you.
 

 

 

When I started my website, there were a lot of things in Upledger's work that were helpful to me in approaching the literature of Zen.

The essays in "An Unauthorized and Incomplete Guide to Zazen" were also written with Upledger's teaching in mind.  I still detect motion when I sit, but I'm no longer sure that the source of that motion is a cranial-sacral rhythm, although it may well be.  I wrote this, in one of the essays of the "Unauthorized" guide:
 

The sense of location as consciousness takes place can lead the balance of the body to accomplish from the inside what Dr. Upledger accomplished from the outside, namely, to reinforce movement in one part of the body with the rhythm of the cranial-sacral system in order to free up movement in another part.

 

(Alignment of the Spine and the Cranial-Sacral Rhythm)

 

 

Now, I simply write this:

 

Gautama recommended a cross-legged seated posture for “arousing” mindfulness. I believe, based on my own experience, that the cross-legged posture exacerbates the shearing stress on vertebrae of the lower spine in the movement of breath. In my experience, consciousness can take place in a specific location in response to that stress, and the location of consciousness can lead the balance of the body to engage activity in order to relieve that stress.

 

(The Diamond Trap, the Thicket of Thorns)

 

 

That's a story about fascial support for the sacrum and spine, provided by the interaction between the ligaments of the sacrum and spine and the various agonist/antagoniist muscle groups that can be regulated by those ligaments.

With that approach, I am in accord with the teachings that Chen Man-Ch'ing attributed to the classics of  Tai Chi regarding the stages in the cultivation of ch'i. I outline those stages in A Way of Living. 
 

I also find that approach more useful in my practice. It's about freedom, a freedom of consciousness:

 

I would guess that even when the spine is not under significant load, activity to align and displace the thoracolumbar fascial sheet is still engaged to provide support to the structure of the spine. Such support would serve to ease the nerve exits between vertebrae along the sacrum and spine, and the free occurrence of consciousness in the body I believe depends in part on such ease.

 

All the same, the specifics of the ligaments of the sacrum and spine, and particularly the ligaments that connect the sacrum and spine to the pelvis, are critical. I do utilize the metaphors Gautama provided for the states of concentration, and I do rely on the ease he described, yet I find I invariably have to set up a mindfulness of the ligaments of the pelvis, sacrum, and spine and how they function in inhalation and exhalation, at some point.

Is the "turning to the left, turning to the right, following up behind" that Yuanwu spoke of a function of the cranial-sacral rhythm?  
 

 

Edited June 8 by Mark Foote

[BigSkyDiamond]

I am just delighted to find a discussion conversation approach that correlates physical structure of the human with sacred text.  I am not familiar with the holy books of Buddhism (still reading through the Mark Foote posts, is it Pali canon referenced?), but i absolutely view sacred text as a framework that can be used to describe and map a whole range of different territories.  These stacked layers of meaning and interpretation have no limit.  For me now add the map of anatomy and physiology. This is wonderful !!!

 

In my own tradition when i started to study i remember learning what five of the maps could be when reading the sacred text: first, the basic literal meaning; second, hints and allusions; third, homilies morals lessons; fourth, secrets esoteric; and fifth secret of secrets, the innermost meaning.

 

Then studying further it turns out there are not just five maps stacked, but many many more, like a sheaf of paper that grows higher and taller.  I love the idea of these maps, because then the sacred text is found to reveal so much more and it is like finding more and more treasures.  One of my favorites is the map of everything in the sacred text is describing my inner world, as in psychology, fears, parts of my inner growth, personal growth, character  development.  All those battles and wars and kingdoms and heroes and villains are parts of me and thus provide a valuable resource for self development.  It has been very valuable and beneficial to me using that map.

 

I look forward to further exploring this correlation to the human structure.  It is like finding another treasure.

Edited June 8 by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

37 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Gautama recommended a cross-legged seated posture for “arousing” mindfulness. I believe, based on my own experience, that the cross-legged posture exacerbates the shearing stress on vertebrae of the lower spine in the movement of breath. In my experience, consciousness can take place in a specific location in response to that stress, and the location of consciousness can lead the balance of the body to engage activity in order to relieve that stress.

 

(The Diamond Trap, the Thicket of Thorns)

 

 

That's a story about fascial support for the sacrum and spine, provided by the interaction between the ligaments of the sacrum and spine and the various agonist/antagoniist muscle groups that can be regulated by those ligaments. With that approach, I am in accord with the teachings that Chen Man-Ch'ing attributed to the classics of  Tai Chi regarding the stages in the cultivation of ch'i. I outline those stages in A Way of Living. 
 

 

Since I have now just begun trying to do postures in a seated cross-legged position, and currently do not have the flexibility and range of motion to do that, the question i have is.....i don't want to go too far off topic in this thread, but i would like to hear from people in this forum on:  Why is sitting cross-legged so desirable and important?  Whether that is in this thread or steer me as a newcomer to another thread.

Thank you Mark Foote for all of this material to explore further.

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Since I have now just begun trying to do postures in a seated cross-legged position, and currently do not have the flexibility and range of motion to do that, the question i have is.....i don't want to go too far off topic in this thread, but i would like to hear from people in this forum on:  Why is sitting cross-legged so desirable and important?  Whether that is in this thread or steer me as a newcomer to another thread.

Thank you Mark Foote for all of this material to explore further.

 

 

More than two cents' worth, at no additional charge:
 

In research done at the close of the 1990’s, the ligaments that hold the sacrum to the pelvis (the sacroiliac ligaments) were shown to regulate activity in the gluteous muscles and the muscles of the lower spine (Indahl, A., et al., “Sacroiliac joint involvement in activation of the porcine spinal and gluteal musculature”, Journal of Spinal Disorders, 1999. 12[4]: p. 325-30.). I would say, based on my own experience, that the sacrotuberous, sacrospinous, and iliolumbar ligaments can also regulate activity in the muscles of the pelvis and lower back, and in the muscles of the lower abdomen.

 

Likewise, I believe that the ligaments between the vertebrae of the spine can regulate activity in the muscles of abdomen and chest, and the ligaments between the spine and the skull can regulate activity in the muscles of the neck and jaw.

 

In my experience, the relinquishment of willful activity in the body can depend on realizing a reciprocity in muscular activity, a reciprocity regulated by the stretch of ligaments. An appropriate stretch of ligaments can, in turn, depend on particulars in the alignment and stretch of the thoracolumbar fascial sheet.

 

I would guess that even when the spine is not under significant load, activity to align and displace the thoracolumbar fascial sheet is still engaged to provide support to the structure of the spine. Such support would serve to ease the nerve exits between vertebrae along the sacrum and spine, and the free occurrence of consciousness in the body I believe depends in part on such ease.

 

(The Diamond Trap, the Thicket of Thorns)

 

 

I used to love to watch the S. F. Giants, back when they were winning the Series. They had a closing pitcher who would always squat down before he threw a pitch. They also had an outfielder who did the same, before his at-bat. To open the sacroiliac joints without deep knee bends, I rely on the location of consciousness, and the ease connected with that location. Moshe Feldenkrais described that ease in connection with standing:

 

…good upright posture is that from which a minimum muscular effort will move the body with equal ease in any desired direction. This means that in the upright position there must be no muscular effort deriving from voluntary control, regardless of whether this effort is known and deliberate or concealed from the consciousness by habit.

 

…When the center of gravity has really moved forward over the feet a reflex movement will originate in the old nervous system and straighten the legs; this automatic movement will not be felt as an effort at all.

(“Awareness Through Movement”, Moshe Feldenkrais, p 76, p 78.)

 

 

All I need is to find an ease of automatic activity in inhalation and exhalation through the location of consciousness at the moment, and the cross-legged posture becomes an asset.  The free location of consciousness in the body can also induce automatic activity in inhalation and exhalation, even though the feeling of ease is no longer present

The empty hand grasps the hoe handle
Walking along, I ride the ox
The ox crosses the wooden bridge
The bridge is flowing, the water is still

(“Zen’s Chinese Heritage”, tr. Andy Ferguson)

 

 

Edited June 8 by Mark Foote

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Since I have now just begun trying to do postures in a seated cross-legged position, and currently do not have the flexibility and range of motion to do that, the question i have is.....i don't want to go too far off topic in this thread, but i would like to hear from people in this forum on:  Why is sitting cross-legged so desirable and important?  Whether that is in this thread or steer me as a newcomer to another thread.
 

 

My opinion is that sitting cross-legged is not all that important. 

Others will no doubt disagree.

It does have advantages but only if it is comfortable and sustainable.

The primary importance of the seat is stability so that the body can fully rest with minimal tension or effort, for long periods of time with the spine and torso upright and stable. There are some energetic advantages to cross-legged postures related to containing what the Tibetans refer to as the winds. This becomes more important for energetic practices like tsa lung, trul khor, and tummo.

 

In the tradition I follow there are many descriptions of meditation postures.

Some are for basic sitting and there are others used for more advanced practices like sky-gazing, sun-gazing, tummo, and dark retreat.

The basic sitting posture for practice emphasizes five points, so it's called the 5-point posture.

1 - stable seat, which can be cross legged or on a chair or bench, I often practice standing but that's another discussion

2 - upright spine and torso, this is achieved through balance and support of the seat rather than any tension

3 - chin tucked in - very slight tilting downward and pulling back of the chin to elongate the cervical spine

4 - elbows like a garuda - some space between the sides and elbows so as to open the chest and not restrict the breath

5 - hands in the mudra of equanimity - left hand rests above right, palms up, with ring fingers lightly touching the base of each ring finger

 

[forestofclarity]

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

Why is sitting cross-legged so desirable and important? 

 

I agree with doc above. There is nothing magical about sitting cross-legged from most Buddhist POVs I have been exposed to (Theravada, Zen, and Nyingma/Kagyu). I think this bears repeating because I know many people who have wrecked their knees and back trying to pursue an ideal physical posture or avoiding the "shame" of using a chair on a retreat. 

 

As db points out, the point is to set up a relaxed stable structure so that one may meditate. Buddhism is at core a wisdom tradition (along with Advaita Vedanta), which means the fundamental problem is ignorance (avidya) so the solution is generally wisdom (jnana or prajna usually). There is also an energetic component to having a relaxed, well aligned structure, but this can be achieved sitting in a chair, kneeling position, etc. I would say the straight back and balanced head is more important than the crossed legs based on the energetic component.  

 

 

[Mark Foote]

I don't disagree with the doc or with forest. There have been folks who did their knees in, attempting to sit through pain in the lotus.

 

I know when Chadwick and I spoke for his podcast series, he described how he started out sitting the lotus, and then one day, after a few years of comfort in the lotus, suddenly it wasn't comfortable and he knew it was serious. He's been sitting half-lotus ever since.

 

Last I heard, Dennis Merzel aka Genpo Roshi sits Burmese posture, legs crossed but ankles of both legs on the ground. He said, if I'm not mistaken, that he sat the half-lotus for a decade, then the full lotus for a decade, and now he sits Burmese.

 

Also of interest, most Soto centers in Northern California have adopted 40 minutes as the standard practice period. Some, like Jikoji in Santa Cruz, will throw in an occasional 30 minute period. My understanding is that L. A. Zen Center has adopted a 35-minute standard period, although they begin their sesshin of 35-minute periods with one 50 minute period.

Shohaku Okumura studied with Kosho Uchiyama at Antaiji Temple in Japan, and received transmission there. At Antaiji, they sit a five-day sesshin every month, with 14 50-minute periods in the day. They sat like that something like 43 days straight, after the death of Uchiyama's teacher Kodo Sawaki.

 

Okumura has been sitting in a chair for years now, his knees won't permit him to sit on the floor anymore.

 

I myself sit a sloppy half-lotus, mostly with the left-side up now (in the last year). By sloppy, I mean my ankle rests on the calf of the opposing leg, not on the thigh. Sometimes when I sit right-side up, my foot slips off the opposing calf after a while, and I continue in the Burmese posture that results.

I sit for 40 if it's doing me good. 35 is fine, even 25 if I have difficulties. I can sit in a chair, but even the half-lotus with the left-side up seems like more of a learning experience for me at this point than a chair.

 

My posture has always brought correction at Zen Centers. I'd like to think it's gotten better in the past year, but doing more than "holding their back erect", as Gautama described it, seems heavy-handed to me.  It's one thing for a teacher to describe the posture that they find when they sit, and another to prescribe a posture--I appreciate the former, and ignore the latter. From my last post on my site:

 

Gautama began his instructions on mindfulness with advice on the appropriate setting, and on the posture to adopt:

 

Herein… (one) who is forest-gone or gone to the root of a tree or gone to an empty place, sits down cross-legged, holding (their) back erect, arousing mindfulness…

 

(MN 119, tr. Pali Text Society vol. III pp 130-132)

 

 

That Gautama’s mindfulness was his way of living implies that once he had aroused his mindfulness, he could continue that mindfulness in other settings and in other postures.

 

At the start of his descriptions of the fourth concentration, Gautama noted that:

 

(A person)… comes to be sitting down…

 

(ibid, p 134)

 

 

Nevertheless, I believe that once Gautama had attained the fourth concentration, he could surrender activity of the body to the free location of consciousness in any posture.

 

(The Diamond Trap, the Thicket of Thorns)

"Gone to the root of a tree"--there are folks out there, especially in India, who sit the lotus on the bare ground, but most Zen centers use a zafu as a kind of make-shift tree root (the zafu is the round cushion stuffed with cotton or kapoc). 

 

 

Edited June 8 by Mark Foote

[BigSkyDiamond]

Wow these are great responses, thank you for lo these many voices.  And also thank you to the powers that be for creating a break-out thread for this conversation.  Much appreciated.

 

In regular daily life, I am trying to spend one hour a day on the floor, it feels like this would be healthy for me.  For years i slept on the floor on a thin mat and it always felt good. But have been sleeping in a bed now for past 15 years (low bed, slats, firm mattress).  I started noticing in the past year some stiffness and limitation in simple activities such as picking something up from the floor, bending down to adjust shoes, getting up from a chair, getting up and down from the floor, and so I am taking steps to increase flexibility and range of motion in muscles and limbs. 

 

Part of my action plan for remedy, is increased qi gong so learning two new forms (Zhineng; and Flying Phoenix).  Another part of the action plan is the hour a day on the floor, during that time is stretching, sitting, reading, watching Netflix, whatever.  I am noticing improvement.   One of the qi gong practices has seated postures so I am exploring various approaches to that, hence this topic.

 

the responses are helpful, interesting, and engaging.

Edited June 8 by BigSkyDiamond