Do people truly have free will?

[Tommy]

I did not know where to put this topic so I apologize if it is in the wrong place. Here is the quandary, ...

As some believe that Karma has a way of steering the course of events to meet the needs of the energies involved.

So, if one has free will then can one avoid these energies and thus avoid the fate Karma has for one?

Or is it that - no matter what one does or chooses to do - that karma will take over and force the energies to deal with the matter at hand?

 

Say for the matter with Jesus. That his fate was to end up on the cross and suffer this terrible death. And even then his disciple wanted to protect Jesus from that particular end that Jesus would rebuke them. Matthew 16:23. Get behind me Satan. He knew his fate. There was no other choice for him. Matthew 26:34. You will deny me three times. It was fated and that person had no choice??

 

So, do the choices we make actually fall into the path that was chosen for us already? Does a person truly have free will? In my mind, I tell myself that I do make my own choices and live with the consequences of those choices. But, is it ordained that that is how it will happen anyway? Sort of like DNA pre-determines how tall one is and whether a person is man or woman and how smart a person is?? Do I choose to smoke and die early or does environment make my choices for me?

 

Googled, ...

The philosophical question of free will explores whether human actions are truly voluntary and self-determined, or if they are predetermined by external forces like genetics, environment, or fate. It delves into the nature of control over our choices, the extent of our agency, and the implications for moral responsibility. 

Edited Monday at 02:44 AM by Tommy

[stirling]

From a scientific perspective, absolutely not. It has been shown repeatedly in studies that our thoughts are not the determiner of our actions - our muscles begin to move to pick up a cup LONG before we have the idea or thought to do so. Regular meditators can discover this for themselves. This is not a universe where autonomous "people" decide the next course of action. 

 

So, what then? What about looking at this pragmatically? My teacher likes to say, "We are not in charge of the world... what we ARE in charge of is how we RESPOND". 

 

If you think about this moment and all of the things happening in your house, your town, your state or province, your country, your world, your galaxy, etc., etc. your actions seemingly have very little impact on what is happening. What is happening was theoretically determined at the moment the singularity of the "big bang" happened and the first new particle hit the second, just as the trajectory of balls on a billiard table are determined the moment the cue balls meets whichever balls it first encounters. Having said that, YOU are on that table.
 

Quote

 

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan

 

 

Causes and conditions from the beginning of time have determined what might happen next. No big bang, no apple pie... but also, no YOU present in this moment. Clearly, there is a presence where you are, a part of what unfolds. What, then, is our relationshop, to what is happening?

 

Quote

If you want to know what will happen to you in the future, look at what you are doing now. - Dalai Lama

 

He is saying a lot more than he appears to be here. He is saying (paraphrasing here): "The circumstances of this moment determine what the next will be like. So... how are things going? What is most obviously going to happen next? What are YOU likely to do as part of that unfolding? Covering that, what is YOUR SINCERE, GENUINE INTENTION IN THIS MOMENT and how will that impact what happens next, since you are utterly INSEPARABLE from all other moving parts in this moment? Choose wisely! What does that mean? Choose love, choose kindness, choose compassion... how the next moment plays out LITERALLY depends on how you, an inseparable part of the universe, present your intentions in THIS moment. 

 

In this moment you are reading the last paragraph of this text. This text is now part of what happens next. Perhaps you will dismiss it as bullshit and say it doesn't matter. Perhaps you will do your own research to see what science says is real. Maybe, you will decide that working to be kind in the world is worth trying. Ask yourself, what do the conditions of this moment predict for the next moment?

[Sanity Check]

 

If a poll were created with a "does free will exist" question.

 

Most religious demographics will vote yes.

 

While atheists vote no.

 

 

 

[Tommy]

Thanks for the reply. I am beginning to think it is a rhetorical question that has no answer. For what one believes, is what is true for them, regardless of the truth. But, it goes along with my theory that if time travel were possible that the question of the paradox of killing your grandfather would prevent your birth which would prevent you from travelling back in time to kill your grandfather then time would simply correct the mistake. Meaning that one would not be able to meet one's grandfather under those conditions. If one goes back in time to stop a disease from spreading then the patient zero would be changed (by time itself) as to prevent the change in need to go back in time to prevent the disease from spreading. Sort of like an auto correct. This is a way of pre-determining one's choices. It prevents one from making the wrong choice. But, we don't experience it as such. Thus free will feels real.

Edited Monday at 02:47 PM by Tommy

[stirling]

16 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Thanks for the reply. I am beginning to think it is a rhetorical question that has no answer. For what one believes is what is true for them regardless of the truth.

 

Yes, belief is powerful, but our beliefs are not a legitimate way of knowing how things truly are. There is a difference between reading a recipe and imagining what a cake will be like, and actually baking the cake and tasting it. This experiential way of knowing is "gnosis", and it is what divides religions from mystics, those that have "baked the cake". Only gnosis will demonstrate the deeper reality of things of things. A belief is what we construct when we don't "gnow".

 

Our practice can illuminate the reality of "free will", if we take the time to look. It can also illuminate the reality of what time, space, "self", and separateness are, with some pointing. I can also lay to rest questions about time travel.

 

Gnosis offers the most comforting, loving, relief you can have to our struggle with how "reality "is. No belief will ever relax your ever-questing mind.

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Yes, belief is powerful, but our beliefs are not a legitimate way of knowing how things truly are. There is a difference between reading a recipe and imagining what a cake will be like, and actually baking the cake and tasting it. This experiential way of knowing is "gnosis", and it is what divides religions from mystics, those that have "baked the cake". Only gnosis will demonstrate the deeper reality of things of things. A belief is what we construct when we don't "gnow".

 

Our practice can illuminate the reality of "free will", if we take the time to look. It can also illuminate the reality of what time, space, "self", and separateness are, with some pointing. I can also lay to rest questions about time travel.

 

Gnosis offers the most comforting, loving, relief you can have to our struggle with how "reality "is. No belief will ever relax your ever-questing mind.

Yes, that goes along with your thread of "Experience is what is needed". One can not truly know unless one experiences the truth of nature. However, it will never stop the wanderings of the mad man, in the desert, on a search of an oasis. The thirst is there but the drink of water is needed.

[Lairg]

19 hours ago, Tommy said:

As some believe that Karma has a way of steering the course of events to meet the needs of the energies involved.

So, if one has free will then can one avoid these energies and thus avoid the fate Karma has for one?

 

There are layers of karma:

 

- personal

- planetary

- solar systemic

- galactic

- universal

- trans-universal 1

- etc

 

Personal karma is very hard to avoid as you own the persona that must learn.  Choosing to learn quickly is generally better.

 

Higher levels of karma follow lines of least resistance.  Once personal karma has been resolved (critical requirement for first stage enlightenment) it may be that the relevant Lords of Karma (recording angel, lipika lords) will divert particular flows if appropriately petitioned.

 

Free will is important in that the human may decide to face with or against the flow of the Cosmic River as it desires to merge into the Cosmic Ocean.  Generally it is easier to avoid obstacles when looking forward in the flow.

 

Free will is an attitude rather than a control over Reality but appropriate exercise of free will tends to provide a more pleasant experience of our return to The Source of All. 

 

Try it and see for yourself

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 10:33 PM by Lairg

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

If a poll were created with a "does free will exist" question.

 

Most religious demographics will vote yes.

 

While atheists vote no.

 

 

 

 

Yet a major idea of  following a religion is to give up your free will and follow their teachings . 

 

And a major part of the anti-religious movement  ( eg.   'The Enlightenment ' )  absolutely encouraged  the idea of free will and deciding your own destiny .

 

But that history snippet is obviously at odds with your 'facts ' . 

 

.

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Tommy said:

Thanks for the reply. I am beginning to think it is a rhetorical question that has no answer. For what one believes, is what is true for them, regardless of the truth. But, it goes along with my theory that if time travel were possible that the question of the paradox of killing your grandfather would prevent your birth which would prevent you from travelling back in time to kill your grandfather then time would simply correct the mistake. Meaning that one would not be able to meet one's grandfather under those conditions. If one goes back in time to stop a disease from spreading then the patient zero would be changed (by time itself) as to prevent the change in need to go back in time to prevent the disease from spreading. Sort of like an auto correct. This is a way of pre-determining one's choices. It prevents one from making the wrong choice. But, we don't experience it as such. Thus free will feels real.

 

Problematic because you are trying to work out what is going on the real material 'now ' by looking at a presupposition that has never and does not exist   ( IE. time travel ) 

 

Of course you have free will !  Ever been on a diet or a strict training regime ... and MADE  yourself do things , even felt an internal struggle  between  yourself ... sometimes 'you' win, sometimes 'you' loose .  I will go further ; who is loosing and who is winning ? 

 

Is it your free will to stay with an abuse partner , especially when you realize  its come about due to your conditioning, perhaps from family . In this case , what is motivating the decision ? 

 

I think its obvious that in some cases we do have it and other cases we don't have it and in some cases its both mixed together . 

 

Different parts of us have different wills .  the 'lazy part'  might try to subvert your need (or will ) to train  and win or loose . And that polarity is one of the simplest in us .

 

To think of an overall all the time free will, we would have to imagine we are one  single 'self' and close our eyes to the many indicators that is not so ... and go on being confused and wondering about things . 

 

The key is , who or what is going to control regulate and administer all those 'selves'  .  One function in the psyche is there for that purpose , however many just assume this function is  'themselves' .  No, its a part of the system of selves  and needs to rule its kingdom ... wisely  !  

 

Even then , it needs to deal with a tsunami of other influences  ( aside from your free will and intent ) . One of the important things in magick is one needs to have the vision to see how far one can expand within the sphere of one's potential ... and to have the wisdom  that when you 'but up against ' the extent of that potential , to try to force beyond that is illusory ....  eg.   by trying to develop impossible skills  .... or trying to figure out things by imagining the impossible  ... what good does that do you ? 

[Sanity Check]

15 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Yet a major idea of  following a religion is to give up your free will and follow their teachings . 

 

And a major part of the anti-religious movement  ( eg.   'The Enlightenment ' )  absolutely encouraged  the idea of free will and deciding your own destiny .

 

But that history snippet is obviously at odds with your 'facts ' . 

 

.

 

 

 

A person with free will can be punished for their choices with hell.

 

A person lacking free will could not be punished with hell.

[Nungali]

5 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

 

A person with free will can be punished for their choices with hell.

 

A person lacking free will could not be punished with hell.

 

 

That is obscure but it reads like you are claiming that  God gave Man free will so he could punish him and send him to hell for being disobedient to God by enacting the free will God gave to him in the first place . 

 

Isn't theology wonderful  !   

 

 

" I want outa here !   "  

[Sanity Check]

35 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

That is obscure but it reads like you are claiming that  God gave Man free will so he could punish him and send him to hell for being disobedient to God by enacting the free will God gave to him in the first place . 

 

Isn't theology wonderful  !   

 

 

" I want outa here !   "  

 

 

I think you should spend more time with people outside daobums.

 

You're too much in your own echo chamber.

[Tommy]

4 hours ago, Lairg said:

Personal karma is very hard to avoid as you own the persona that must learn.  Choosing to learn quickly is generally better.

 

Higher levels of karma follow lines of least resistance.  Once personal karma has been resolved (critical requirement for first stage enlightenment) it may be that the relevant Lords of Karma (recording angel, lipika lords) will divert particular flows if appropriately petitioned.

 

Free will is important in that the human may decide to face with or against the flow of the Cosmic River as it desires to merge into the Cosmic Ocean.  Generally it is easier to avoid obstacles when looking forward in the flow.

 

Free will is an attitude rather than a control over Reality but appropriate exercise of free will tends to provide a more pleasant experience of our return to The Source of All. 

There is this idea of Dependent Origination. Nothing arises by itself. So that if one chooses an action then it came from previous conditions. Take your thoughts for a moment. Stop for a second then try to predict what one's next thought will be about. I am guessing that one  can not. Trying to predict one's next thought puts one's mind into a condition which doesn't allow it to happen And so, whatever you were going to think is dependent upon the previous condition.

 

Karma is just the flow of events due to the energies involved. In simple words, when one plants an apple seed then an apple seed can grow. Not an orange tree or pecan tree. One thing leads to another. And so Karma takes one's choices away. It doesn't take away the ability to think one has free will. To have that attitude of free will rather than a control over reality. For the choice of action was chosen already.

[Tommy]

3 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

A person with free will can be punished for their choices with hell.

 

 A person lacking free will could not be punished with hell.

So, you are saying that if a person has free will then they can be punished for their choices while lacking free will means that they are not responsible for their actions?? But, the sun shines on everyone whether they are good or evil. The sun light makes no distinction between free will and the lack of free will. And so the rain comes down on everyone. The rain drops don't avoid the good and only hit the sinners. So, it doesn't matter if there is free will or not. What matters are the intent in your actions. They provide the path that you are on.

[stirling]

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

There are layers of karma:

 

- personal

- planetary

- solar systemic

- galactic

- universal

- trans-universal 1

- etc

 

Where are they? Where can I see them? Can you show other people, or do they only exist as ideas?

 

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

Free will is an attitude rather than a control over Reality but appropriate exercise of free will tends to provide a more pleasant experience of our return to The Source of All.

 

Realizing the source is realizing that you have never been separate... there is nothing to "return" to.

[Sanity Check]

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

So, you are saying that if a person has free will then they can be punished for their choices while lacking free will means that they are not responsible for their actions?? But, the sun shines on everyone whether they are good or evil. The sun light makes no distinction between free will and the lack of free will. And so the rain comes down on everyone. The rain drops don't avoid the good and only hit the sinners. So, it doesn't matter if there is free will or not. What matters are the intent in your actions. They provide the path that you are on.

 

 

When a person is attacked by a wild animal. 

 

They often do not blame the animal for the attack:

 

 

The animal lacks free will & cannot distinguish between good or evil.

 

It is merely following its instinct.

 

The existence of free will is fundamental ideology of christianity:

 

Quote

And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

 

Genesis 3:22

 

Good and evil can only exist under conditions where free will exists.

 

 

[Paradoxal]

8 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

A person lacking free will could not be punished with hell.

...but you're here right now! 😆

 

Anyway, my two cents is that we can CHOOSE to have free will, but many of us choose not to. It is easier to just let ourselves be swept away by the times, after all! 

 

I'd argue that well over half of Americans do not have free will for the reason that they allow others to think for them and do not pursue knowledge. For evidence of this claim, look to how Civil War politics have led to the current administration hundreds of years later.

 

Nonetheless, even if we exercise our "free will", there are paths of least resistance and paths barred by thorns; I would posit this as the doing of karma. 

 

[Lairg]

8 hours ago, Tommy said:

Karma is just the flow of events due to the energies involved. In simple words, when one plants an apple seed then an apple seed can grow.

 

My observation over various experiments is that the intelligences that manage karma can be quite cooperative.

 

I have used competent observers to confirm some experiments

 

Belief is easier than experiment 

[Lairg]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

Where are they? Where can I see them? Can you show other people, or do they only exist as ideas?

 

When you develop senses on the higher planes and deal with most of your karma, the Lords of Karma become interested in cooperation.

 

I have shown various humans the Lords of Karma relevant to their situations - and some humans have achieved useful cooperation.    The Lords of Karma have their duties - but often alternative paths exist

 

 

[Lairg]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

Realizing the source is realizing that you have never been separate... there is nothing to "return" to.

 

If you say so.

 

My own experience differs.  There is delegation to effective anchorings in soul-bearing species by The Source of All

 

It may seem strange but The Source of All has its own Intent in causing Existence and various entities are used to promote the experiences intended by TSoA.

 

Humans have a purpose before, during and after Existence.  Hard work is required to become aware of the uses to which the individual human is directed

 

At the end of a particular Existence some humans are naturally retrieved into Beingness

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 11:52 AM by Lairg

[Tommy]

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

Good and evil can only exist under conditions where free will exists.

So, the source of evil is that people have the ability to choose their actions from a moral choice to an immoral choice? And moral and immoral are determined by the people. When people believed that sacrificing some people would appease that Gods was moral, that was free will but it was good. And when people do that now, it would be immoral as standards have changed which makes it evil? 

 

I remember stories of people starving on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Then there was this person who fed them. He got his meat by killing other people he did not like. Doing evil to do good? To me some choices are subjective. And, an animal does make decisions. If you ever seen a mother bird get revenge for her eggs being eaten by a fox. It is a choice of the bird to target the fox. Instinct? Sure.

Or the story of the frog and the scorpion. The scorpion ask the frog for a ride across the pond. The frog refused saying that the scorpion would sting him and their would die. The scorpion insist that he would not. So, as they were crossing the pond, the scorpion stung the frog. Moral of the story? Even with free will to choose their actions, instinct will make them act. Moral or not?

 

So, sure, free will means you can choose good and evil. But, who decides what is good and evil. And what is instinct? How do all these things interplay?

[Tommy]

40 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

When you develop senses on the higher planes and deal with most of your karma, the Lords of Karma become interested in cooperation.

 

I have shown various humans the Lords of Karma relevant to their situations - and some humans have achieved useful cooperation.    The Lords of Karma have their duties - but often alternative paths exist

 

 

Thank goodness I have not developed senses on the higher planes. This so that I do not deal with the Lords of Karma as most lords do not listen to the lowly peasants of the world. Living on different planes only shows how out of touch they are with the world of people. And lack the understanding of compassion, therefore lack wisdom in their decisions. For me, I rather put down that book.

[Lairg]

8 hours ago, Tommy said:

most lords do not listen to the lowly peasants of the world.

 

But are you a lowly peasant in the Cosmos?

 

Perhaps you have been posted into a generic humanness to assist with unfoldment of the Cosmos

 

Personally I do not think that surface Earth humanity is representative of soul-bearing species in the Cosmos

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

I think you should spend more time with people outside daobums.

 

You're too much in your own echo chamber.

 

 

Here is your fortune cookie for today ;

 

Attempted snappy answers that never address your original idiocy  hide nothing . 

 

The next cookie will contain a list of all the shit you claimed ,  that you could never back up or prove , stupid things you said and how you said you were deliberately doing that to add to general stupidity ,    and some of your lame and blindly prejudiced judgments   like trying to defend Trump  (no surprise with that one , someone like you ! ) and making comments about trans people being men  who  'cut off their pee-pees so they could do women's sport ' . 

 

And now you  accuse me .... because I am calling you out . 

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

When a person is attacked by a wild animal. 

 

They often do not blame the animal for the attack:

 

 

The animal lacks free will & cannot distinguish between good or evil.

 

It is merely following its instinct.

 

The existence of free will is fundamental ideology of christianity:

 

 

Good and evil can only exist under conditions where free will exists.

 

 

 

 

Ridiculous !     Does a cow blame you for eating it ?    YOU  having free will ... did you do evil in having chicken for dinner ? 

 

The shark 'cant help itself' for its   natural    food (virtually anything )  so therefore innocent , but a person with free will is not evil for eating the chicken ... or are they ? 

 

And if diet and free will and good and evil foods are 'a thing'  how to explain   this 

 

 

 

They all chose by free will to get obese and unhealthy .