Demonology. Why focus on the negative?

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Revelation deals mainly with future prophecy.

 

The rebellion of fallen angels happened in the past.

 

You said it was Biblical -  "  The concept of 33% of fallen angels rebelling against heaven in the bible "    cite the passage then   in another book of the Bible that says 1/3 of the angels fell from heaven . 

 

I'd love to read it !    

 

 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Many abandoned atheism after it went woke.

 

Says who ?  Show some proof . 

 

 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Men chopping off their pee pees to compete in woman's sports.

 

I see and that is atheism is it ? 

 

You yourself said you where deliberately trying to be stupid  here .... you are doing a fine job so far . 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Who wants to be associated with that?

 

Nobody of course, they will abandon their atheism and run to religion for help    

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

Its like a joke being said 1,000 years ago.

 

And people being so slow they still haven't got the punchline thousands of years later.

 

If the sharp mind takes 5 seconds to comprehend something.

 

The slow mind will take 50 to 500+ years to comprehend the same content.

 

It should be ancient knowledge but people working night and day to live under a rock make that ancient knowledge into unobtainable knowledge.

 

Ahhh conspiracies I wonder why you had not gone there yet . 

 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

I've seen more than a few attempts to blame Trump for everything bad in the world.

 

Your a fan , of course . 

 

The mods should feed you to Old Bob    

 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

There is no shortage of that out there.

 

Well, like I said.

 

I don't discuss or debate much anymore.

 

That might be a good idea as you are rather terrible at it .

 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

As I have come to realize facts and science are things most consider useless.

 

That's today is it ? Last week you were rubbing our faces in how stupid you were being here - deliberately 

 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

You?

 

Who are you anyway.

 

I thought you were some nun who took a vow of chastity.

 

Nun - gali.

 

 

Of the Order of the Good  Knights and Nuns of St Francis     ( Sir Francis Dashwood that is ) 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Dashwood,_11th_Baron_le_Despencer

 

and since you ask I also hold an ordination (it was never revoked so I still have it ) .

[old3bob]

speaking of the book of Revelation there is Edgar Cayce's book on it relating to the 7 chakras, etc.

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

speaking of the book of Revelation there is Edgar Cayce's book on it relating to the 7 chakras, etc.

 

 

Well, since ' Homer'  dumped shit again and cant come back and 'hold his own up '    ....... 

 

I haven't read that book but its a tradition in  Esoteric Freemasonry .   I think it was introduced at a later stage , when   people started doing 'the Grand Tour'  and encountered things like Yoga .   It probably came in through  John Yarker originally ..... my memory is fading a bit on this one  regarding names  but there where two HIndu and one Sufi tantric  whose teachings  formed  together  with some  esoteric masonry  and some one came up with the idea of 'seals'  being 'chakras' .  It survives to day in the  ritual form  of 'The Knights of the East and West . '

 

It also had  a journey through the GD stuff .... but I think that's  a  ......    'wormhole' 

 

 

Theosophy  would have lifted it from those sources , and perhaps Cayce got the idea from  Theosophy . 

[Alfigar]

Firstly, you have to understand medieval christian esoteric's view on those entities. According to that paradigm, the demons are under Christ's hold, they are already defeated and therefore subjected to Christ, and by extension, the magician - which, in a medieval context, is a priest and monk - as they act only by Christ's authority. The point of enforcing the demons to do your bidding is not only an act redemption to them, but also an emphasis on Jesus Christ's triumph over them. That's why medieval magic is built on juridical terminology: Jesus is the judge, the magician the executioneer, and the demon the prisioner. Their penance is to serve Christ's children.

 

Personally, I do not subscribe to that idea, but well, my own view on things is something to talk about in another context.

Edited Wednesday at 12:40 PM by Alfigar

[old3bob]

 

don't know about all of that Nungali, but what Cayce came up with was supposedly through trance...I image his original book (which I have)

is not that easy to come by although there are apparently various editions of perhaps the same book?

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:15 PM by old3bob

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

don't know about all of that Nungali, but what Cayce came up with was supposedly through trance...I image his original book (which I have)

is not that easy to come by although there are apparently various editions of perhaps the same book?

 

 

Well, it just a bit of history tracing the idea that the seals mentioned (opening seals) in Revelation is symbolic of 'opening chakras' . 

 

With many of these  post Victorian 'spiritualists' and the like ( people like Blavatski as well) they often shared their visions trances and realizations ... one would have one , and if it became fashionable and in vogue , then others would have them too . 

 

Same thing happens today . In some cases they are in conflict though and form different 'schools'   of thought on the matter.  Back then , if you wanted popularity followers or even   'cred'   best to   vision/ channel / trance  / get a message from 'Masters' / etc  better to include some pyramid Atlantis stuff  and  bit of good old fashioned racism    

 

Thing is , with 'trance'  one can be   experiencing  and saying (or writing ) anything   from anywhere  or anyone . Magick requires a recognized source  and that is tested before any validity is given ..... unless one 'chooses'  to  give faith and trust to the 'seer' and just assumes it will always be from  ..... well, what source ?   Did Cayce give a source ? or was it one of those  ' akhisic records '   ? 

[Apotheose]

On 07/05/2025 at 7:30 PM, Nungali said:

What does 'there is no occasional anger or depression '   mean ?   You never have 'mood swings' .  Are you talking about some 'above it all state ' where you are never effected by the external world due to your inner world being so illuminated ? 

Not at all. I meant everything is karma in the end of the day. Many things people believe to be external (uncalled for) forces are actually effects of previous causes. There is never a random “demon”.

[Apotheose]

On 07/05/2025 at 7:30 PM, Nungali said:

Not just the Bible - throughout the whole magical  tradition  ( well, the 'valid' tradition ) ;   Its a Central theme  and power source of Magick But also of Psychology 

 

Hence first steps like pentagram / banishing / middle piller , etc. exercises . 

 

BUT  I note your inclusion of  " strong enough "  .  Here is the issue - hence the 'subliminal approach' of the 'demon'  ( whether spawned from an unresolved nagging internal doubt or an external Coca-cola advert) . 

 

It's a bit like saying if you are healthy enough you will not catch a cold

Nungali,
 

I’m very familiar with western banishing rituals and I completely lost faith in them… The same way I used to believe in the power of the Exorcist rite (from the Catholic Church) and, after many years, I no longer believe in it.

 

There was something in my comment I believe not a single one of you understood. And I’m not being a religious fundamentalist here, neither am I being biased towards christian dogma. But I am, in fact, talking about christian (!) demonology, so please disregard anything from the East, such as Taoism, Yoga and others. I am talking from an Abrahamic standpoint (!).

 

I believe no one understood what I said about John 1:5. Well, if Light shines in the darkness and the darkness does not comprehend the Light, then darkness isn’t a thing. There is no such thing as “Darkness”, but, rather, there is “absence of Light”. Darkness isn’t a “Being” in and of itself.

 

There is no such thing as REMOVING Darkness or “demons” from someone or something. In reality, what happens is you ATTRACT/INVOKE Light at your presence and at the presence of others and, most importantly, in your Heart.

 

So, in response to your conclusion that “It’s a bit like saying if you are healthy enough you will not catch a cold”… Well… If you don’t have enough Light in you, you will certainly catch a cold and you will certainly be bothered by your “demons”. But you will never catch a cold because some “outsider” took over your “inner conversation” or, worse, your consciousness —that, I believe, is something taken straight out of “Role Playing Games” (very popular in my day) which have criminally been inoculated into mysticism and esotericism. Yes, unfortunately we live in a time —specially after modern british “mystics” such as Crowley— where some allegorical ideas have turned into actual “real” and literal things in esoteric books. And I have nothing against British spiritualists, but some of them were, indeed, somewhat responsible for this huge schizophrenic tendency that western mysticism have been displaying since late 1800’s, which —to make matters worse— is unfortunately still a thing in a certain group where people go very well dressed, if you know what I mean.

 

I have practiced banishing rituals for a long time because I did not understand the true meaning of John 1:5. Remember, there isn’t “Darkness” to be taken out of someone; there is only Light that you can call on, praise and invoke. Every “banishing” ritual which has the premise of increasing one’s Lightness has the potential to be damn good Magic. However, if a banishing ritual only pretends to get rid of maleficent sources of information and energy (“demons”), then it surely contradicts the Holy Bible, because Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot comprehend it (John 1:5). And, personally, I think it would only work when there is either placebo effect involved or when the magus (even if borderline unconsciously) is able to elevate the Light during the ritual. Fact is: fighting nothingness leads to nothingness. Fighting the “absence of Light” cannot lead to somewhere even slightly productive. It’s a tautological and naive way of nourishing a healthy way of life, in my opinion.

 

Then you could ask me: but doesn’t the Catholic Church practice Exorcisms where they solely pretend to get rid of negative energies instead of increasing your level of awareness and Lightness? That’s correct, but does the Catholic Church actually follow the Holy Bible?

Edited 22 hours ago by Apotheose

[Apotheose]

On 08/05/2025 at 2:06 PM, Neirong said:

If someone believes with absolute certainty that there is a "correct path," from the beginning, they have already lost their way

Yes, in a religious way — not in a mystical/esoteric way. Simply because they are not equals. Hence the need to be careful not to step into false equivalence.

 

Walking between the two columns does not mean being righteous, protecting widows, helping the homeless nor any other moral nonsense that religion has taught you. It means taking the path which is 0% “good” and 0% “bad” — or, even better, that path which is 0% “correct” and also 0% “incorrect”. Well, if such path is no good and no bad, then what is it…? The funny thing is, the answer is always right in front of our eyes.

 

I only used the term “correct” because of the natural and innate lack of linguistic resources that can accurately explain the esoteric.

 

A good way to summarize all this would be: If you want to illuminate a dark room so that things become visible to you, do you remove its darkness or do you turn on the lights? And, in this same context, is the light “correct” and its absence “incorrect”? Of course not… it’s just how the Law operates. There is no judgment of value in any of this.

Edited 12 hours ago by Apotheose

[Turnip]

Why do we study viruses and disease? For preventative and curative purposes. 

[Neirong]

2 hours ago, Apotheose said:

that can accurately explain the esoteric

No words can accurately describe or explain the esoteric, as two-dimensional information cannot capture a 22-dimensional reality. For instance, imagine a flat, two-dimensional square trying to comprehend a three-dimensional cube. The square can only perceive the cube as a flat shape, such as a single slice or shadow, completely missing its depth and volume.
 

Now consider how a static 3D image differs from a three-hour-long 3D video in terms of information density. Describing a three-hour 3D video in words—capturing its dynamic visuals, sound, and emotional arcs—would be nearly impossible without losing its essence. Yet, these are merely four dimensions. Esoteric practices, however, engage with over 12 dimensions, and some sources suggest our reality encompasses more than 22 dimensions.
 

This is why I’ve mentioned before, and reiterate now, that talking or reading on forums will never lead to enlightenment or meaningful progress on the spiritual path.

 

2 hours ago, Apotheose said:

Hence the need to be careful not to step into false equivalence.

When the "knowledge" is derived solely from books, or online sources, you can only worry, as it is fake and illusory. You would have to expend energy to sustain a belief system or fight for the certain views.

In contrast, those who possess practical experience and proper training have no need for concern. Their knowledge is grounded in real-world application, giving them confidence and clarity without the need to cling to or defend untested beliefs.
 

14 hours ago, Apotheose said:

There was something in my comment I believe not a single one of you understood. And I’m not being a religious fundamentalist here, neither am I being biased towards christian dogma. But I am, in fact, talking about christian (!) demonology, so please disregard anything from the East, such as Taoism, Yoga and others. I am talking from an Abrahamic standpoint (!).

This is amusing. Do you believe reality is divided among Buddhists, Christians, Yogis, Taoists, and other religions, with each group living in its own pocket dimension?
 

While descriptions of demons and entities are common across various traditions, they often attempt to describe the same phenomena from different perspectives, with some distortion and error.
 

If I shared my deep knowledge of demonology with someone who has never encountered a demon, and that person passed it on, within just a few cycles, the "knowledge" would likely be distorted to the point of being barely recognizable.

 

15 hours ago, Apotheose said:

There is never a random “demon”.

From the above, it is clear that:

•  You do not understand what a demon is.
•  You do not understand what karma is.
•  You are preoccupied with mental exercises, such as pitting imaginary karma against imaginary demons.

I can address these points.
 

A demon is a real living being, just like you, Nungali, or a rhinoceros in Africa. A human is an animal with a body (its primary vessel) rooted in the physical/material realm. A demon, however, is a living being whose primary body exists in the astral or another non-physical realm.
 

If you live in a forest and encounter a hungry wolf, it may eat you. This involves no karma; it’s simply the natural cycle of predation, akin to how you shop for food. Similarly, demons can parasitize and feast on human energy. But if you have weapons, tools, training and knowledge, you can defend yourself.
 

People learn about karma when they evolve to a point where such knowledge becomes relevant. This understanding typically emerges after developing extrasensory perception (ESP) abilities, and certainly not before. At this stage, human mind expands beyond the self, beginning to perceive itself as part of the world rather than a separate entity.
 

Reading books about karma is utterly meaningless. I have seen hundreds of people waste their lives engaging in nonsensical activities, mistakenly believing they will gain positive karma.
 

23 minutes ago, Turnip said:

Why do we study viruses and disease? For preventative and curative purposes. 

That's right.

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Apotheose said:

Nungali,
 

I’m very familiar with western banishing rituals and I completely lost faith in them… The same way I used to believe in the power of the Exorcist rite (from the Catholic Church) and, after many years, I no longer believe in it.

 

There was something in my comment I believe not a single one of you understood. And I’m not being a religious fundamentalist here, neither am I being biased towards christian dogma. But I am, in fact, talking about christian (!) demonology, so please disregard anything from the East, such as Taoism, Yoga and others. I am talking from an Abrahamic standpoint (!).

 

I believe no one understood what I said about John 1:5. Well, if Light shines in the darkness and the darkness does not comprehend the Light, then darkness isn’t a thing. There is no such thing as “Darkness”, but, rather, there is “absence of Light”. Darkness isn’t a “Being” in and of itself.

 

 

I must still be confused as now it seems like you are saying a banishing ritual  is ... sort of like..... an exorcism ... a 'casting out' or removal of something or energy  and not a process where light is bought in to illuminate   ?   After studying the process more its not the case ... and few well known people in magic have affirmed that .

 

Thin of what you are doing at the very first stage of an LBR . 

 

However there can be a 'cleaning process '  which is based on  BALANCING the energies .

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

There is no such thing as REMOVING Darkness or “demons” from someone or something. In reality, what happens is you ATTRACT/INVOKE Light at your presence and at the presence of others and, most importantly, in your Heart.

 

 

That is not what is supposed to be happening in a banishing ritual  .... unless its at the end  of a larger  ritual and  is part of the ' license to depart ' .  As I said above , a banishing ritual SHOULD BE about invoking light ... again look at how it starts . The rest of it is balancing  energy . 

 

However in people that feel and act like they are demon possessed   ( and don't think exorcist .... think professional and '  clinical trials ' evidence  *  )   attracting / invoking a higher 'light' / presence / force / dirty  will  dispel the 'demon ' .  Its basic 101 in magical and Theistic Psychology 

 

*   https://www.theisticpsychology.org/books/w.vandusen/presence_spirits.htm

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

So, in response to your conclusion that “It’s a bit like saying if you are healthy enough you will not catch a cold”… Well… If you don’t have enough Light in you, you will certainly catch a cold and you will certainly be bothered by your “demons”. But you will never catch a cold because some “outsider” took over your “inner conversation” or, worse, your consciousness

 

 

Well, I am more in the modern  'magical psychology' camp  and I have actually been abused here for that and not affirming that it IS outside forces . I work more of an 'internal system' .  But, like most things, both possibilities might be possible  .   We get 'invaded' by cold and flu bugs all the time  but we don't always get sick .... unless the get a hold on us .   I know a few very vital healthy people , every time a bug comes along , they got it.  .

 

 

15 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

—that, I believe, is something taken straight out of “Role Playing Games” (very popular in my day) which have criminally been inoculated into mysticism and esotericism. Yes, unfortunately we live in a time —specially after modern british “mystics” such as Crowley— where some allegorical ideas have turned into actual “real” and literal things in esoteric books. And I have nothing against British spiritualists, but some of them were, indeed, somewhat responsible for this huge schizophrenic tendency that western mysticism have been displaying since late 1800’s, which —to make matters worse— is unfortunately still a thing in a certain group where people go very well dressed, if you know what I mean.

 

 

That is why I do not study Hermetics  but study Neo-hermetics  ... that is why any 'banishing ritual' I do has been changed and updated to suit me and my environs   ( but don't do that unless you actually know what the original is for  and how it works and you have experience with  the original  ). yes, I often put down those 'Post Victorian   Occultists '  even the tradition , some of it is rife with racism and sexism , and some of their theories are based on that  .

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

I have practiced banishing rituals for a long time because I did not understand the true meaning of John 1:5. Remember, there isn’t “Darkness” to be taken out of someone; there is only Light that you can call on, praise and invoke. Every “banishing” ritual which has the premise of increasing one’s Lightness has the potential to be damn good Magic. However, if a banishing ritual only pretends to get rid of maleficent sources of information and energy (“demons”), then it surely contradicts the Holy Bible,

 

 

It also contradicts what  an LBR is supposed to be doing ... even according to Crowley .

 

What banishing rituals did you practice that where supposed to be doing that ? 

 

 

15 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

because Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot comprehend it (John 1:5). And, personally, I think it would only work when there is either placebo effect involved or when the magus (even if borderline unconsciously) is able to elevate the Light during the ritual. Fact is: fighting nothingness leads to nothingness. Fighting the “absence of Light” cannot lead to somewhere even slightly productive. It’s a tautological and naive way of nourishing a healthy way of life, in my opinion.

 

 

It's all become very mystical ... originally darkness was an issue as there where things in it that might harm you , either nocturnal animals but mostly because you cant see very good and identify danger . It's a carry over . 

 

 

15 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

Then you could ask me: but doesn’t the Catholic Church practice Exorcisms where they solely pretend to get rid of negative energies instead of increasing your level of awareness and Lightness? That’s correct, but does the Catholic Church actually follow the Holy Bible?

 

Nah , I would not use that as any reference either  . I would use a Bible based one if I was going  to  "and then ask '' ..... something like    hmmmmm ... lets see now ... 

 

Matt 8: 28 -34 , Mark 5 : 1 - 17 .  

[Apotheose]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

banishing ritual SHOULD BE about invoking light

That means, sir, you practice under legit traditions and/or organizations. But don’t underestimate the truly schizophrenic tendencies of (as you called) the “Post Victorian Occultists”. There is much nonsense in this field, that’s why I lost faith in a big part of it.

 

The thing is, Nungali, there is a difference between what should be and what is being done out there. I’d say, without a doubt, that the vast majority of banishing rituals overlook the invocation of Light. Naive mystics really do thing that the ultimate resource to “repairing a disturbance” is through removing “demons” instead of doing what really matters: elevating the Light within!

 

I’m on the same page as you regarding what SHOULD be done. And if you are experienced enough to have chosen to practice productive banishing rituals, that’s great and I’m happy to hear that.

Edited 2 hours ago by Apotheose

[Apotheose]

4 hours ago, Turnip said:

Why do we study viruses and disease? For preventative and curative purposes. 

In my opinion, dear Turnip, the esoteric doesn’t operate the same as the scientific method. As Nungali explained, the authentic mystical (and empirical) method does not regard the “absence of Light” higher than the Light. Therefore, focusing on what isn’t the Light implies an automatic contradiction and a lack of coherence.

 

I will ask you the same thing I asked another user of this forum. If you want to illuminate a dark room so that things become visible to you, do you remove the darkness from that room or do you turn on the lights?

[Apotheose]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

However there can be a 'cleaning process '  which is based on  BALANCING the energies .

That’s on point. I can see you know what you’re talking about.

 

I’ll prefer to not answer some of your questions like “what exact group or book gave me a bad impression” etc. because I prefer not to expose certain ideologies and traditions, as I respect them even though I’m aware they are nourishing something fundamentally incoherent and derived from fantasy and daydreaming (as a big chunk of modern “mysticism” is).

 

By the way, your comment made me remember the country I’m originally from, which has an incredibly strong presence of UNCALIBRATED esoteric practices which you could easily tell they would completely wreck the wellbeing of any practitioner of the esoteric (novice or experienced). Then, what happens after affiliating themselves with these people? They’ll come to forums like this to get help on psychological dissociation; lack of concentration; and signs os psychosis. That’s something which breaks my heart.

Edited 3 hours ago by Apotheose

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Apotheose said:

That’s on point. I can see you know what you’re talking about.

 

I’ll prefer to not answer some of your questions like “what exact group or book gave me a bad impression” etc. because I prefer not to expose certain ideologies and traditions, as I respect them even though I’m aware they are nourishing something fundamentally incoherent and derived from fantasy and daydreaming (as a big chunk of modern “mysticism” is).

 

 

That's cool and I don't want to name mine for various  reasons . The reason I asked is it read like you had tried doing banishing rituals for the  (supposed ) effects  you where criticizing  and I wanted to say ... that ain't it and people should not teach you that - but now,  it  seems you   understand . 

 

 

3 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

By the way, your comment made me remember the country I’m originally from, which has an incredibly strong presence of UNCALIBRATED esoteric practices which you could easily tell they would completely wreck the wellbeing of any practitioner of the esoteric (novice or experienced). Then, what happens after affiliating themselves with these people? They’ll come to forums like this to get help on psychological dissociation; lack of concentration; and signs os psychosis. That’s something which breaks my heart.

 

Try reading the clinical paper from Dr VanDusen I linked to above . You might find it , at least, interesting .   Also the Doctors research and clinical trials support our theory about  'light'  /  'higher' beings   / even 'higher order of hallucinations  '  (  as the research was on medical clinical level .... the patients might call them demons , the doctor calls them hallucinations )  YET as they observed  a 'higher' order (  helpful ) 'hallucination' can dispel a 'lower order'  (and harmful ) 'hallucination'   . 

 

People have even done this with 'incurable disease '   ; meditate on ( imagine ) inside you the disease is an army of dark warriors, your anti bodies are powerful white knights on white horses, they go into battle and you watch the good guys defeat  and  vanquish the bad .... and in some cases ,  the patient gets over the disease.