God interacting with humans.

[BigSkyDiamond]

3 hours ago, Jadespear said:

The whole point of learning is to abolish fear.  Why is it so dangerous to want to learn about what one can truly do and accomplish in the phenomenal world?  Obviously, a balanced person with common sense already knows the wisdom of when to not do things and how to not inflate their own ego or go crazy in this pursuit.  If they don't... they learn it the hard way.  The pursuit of ones divine expression is aimed at ultimate freedom as one has learned ultimate influence and control of oneself at the very real and absolute level.  

 

Jesus of Nazareth raised Lazarus from the dead because he did not want his friend to die for no reason.  Are you telling me that if you had the ability to bring your dead best friend back to life after they were hit by a drunk driver - you wouldn't, because some guy told you not to?

 

People who advance in these respects are called to do things beyond what everyone in the world sees.  Thats the whole point... you learn so you can do.  

 

which brings us to intention, motivation, reasons for practicing this or that path.  Clearly identifying that may be a way to illustrate some of the differences, and to address some of the questions being asked.  The words I highlighted in bold in the post above speak to intention, motivation, reasons for practice.  In other words "what's driving the bus" for us personally, in practicing this or that path.  For each item in bold given for the path of magic, i am going to provide parallel examples of how that may be seen in the traditions I know from within.

 

NOTE:  This is NOT given as a challenge to anyone's path, nor is it for debate, arguing,  criticizing any other path, or one upmanship.  It is ONLY an illustration of how the points raised may be seen in another tradition (two other traditions, the ones i am most familiar with and have directly experienced).  And the comparison is provided in the spirit of seeking to understand each other's views from within different paths  (magic focused, or Divinity focused or Awakening focused)

 

"The whole point of learning is to abolish fear. "

"do things beyond what everyone in the world sees." 

"Thats the whole point... you learn so you can do."

The whole point is non-doing, is stillness, is cultivating pure awareness

The whole point of learning is to draw closer to the Divine and discern God's will in my life

The whole point of learning is to exit the cycle of rebirth

The whole point of learning is character development and self improvement by cultivating virtues

I learn so i can dissolve the belief in separation and Awaken to the infinite me

The focus is on dissolving the material world, awakening from the dream 

 

"Why is it so dangerous to want to learn about what one can truly do and accomplish in the phenomenal world? "

"a balanced person with common sense already knows the wisdom of when to not do things" 

the wisdom of when not to do things includes not engaging in magic. 

Magic is avoided because it puts me in harm's way.

It is dangerous because it summons lesser entities.

It is a distraction and diversion and obstacle and barrier to Awakening.

As above, so below.  Just as there are parts of town i don't wander around in "bad neighborhoods" because unsavory entities do not have my best interests at heart.

just because entities are dead, invisible, or non-physical does not make them smart, safe, or trustowrthy.

Nothing to do with fear.  everything to do with common sense, discernment, safety, and wisdom.

 

"ultimate freedom as one has learned ultimate influence and control of oneself at the very real and absolute level. "

Surrendering control, not seeking more of it.

Let go and let God.

Let go of attachments.

Ultimate freedom is I will to do Thy will.

Ultimate freedom is pure awareness.

Ultimate freedom is observe and let it go.

The very real and absolute level is no-time, no-space, no-form and the material world (the universe and everything in it) is a dream.  

 

" bring your dead best friend back to life"

nope, not a goal.

If i petition God through prayer, then the Divine can work miracles.

My focus is on relationship with the Divine.

My focus is on Source. 

 

 

Thank you Jadespear for very thoughtful discussion on various elements of this topic.

 

Edited June 20 by BigSkyDiamond

[Jadespear]

ok, so what is nirvana then? 

[Jadespear]

On 6/19/2025 at 10:35 PM, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

which brings us to intention, motivation, reasons for practicing this or that path.  Clearly identifying that may be a way to illustrate some of the differences, and to address some of the questions being asked.  The words I highlighted in bold in the post above speak to intention, motivation, reasons for practice.  In other words "what's driving the bus" for us personally, in practicing this or that path.  For each item in bold given for the path of magic, i am going to provide parallel examples of how that may be seen in the traditions I know from within.

 

NOTE:  This is NOT given as a challenge to anyone's path, nor is it for debate, arguing,  criticizing any other path, or one upmanship.  It is ONLY an illustration of how the points raised may be seen in another tradition (two other traditions, the ones i am most familiar with and have directly experienced).  And the comparison is provided in the spirit of seeking to understand each other's views from within different paths  (magic focused, or Divinity focused or Awakening focused)

 

"The whole point of learning is to abolish fear. "

"do things beyond what everyone in the world sees." 

"Thats the whole point... you learn so you can do."

The whole point is non-doing, is stillness, is cultivating pure awareness

The whole point of learning is to draw closer to the Divine and discern God's will in my life

The whole point of learning is to exit the cycle of rebirth

The whole point of learning is character development and self improvement by cultivating virtues

I learn so i can dissolve the belief in separation and Awaken to the infinite me

The focus is on dissolving the material world, awakening from the dream 

 

"Why is it so dangerous to want to learn about what one can truly do and accomplish in the phenomenal world? "

"a balanced person with common sense already knows the wisdom of when to not do things" 

the wisdom of when not to do things includes not engaging in magic. 

Magic is avoided because it puts me in harm's way.

It is dangerous because it summons lesser entities.

It is a distraction and diversion and obstacle and barrier to Awakening.

As above, so below.  Just as there are parts of town i don't wander around in "bad neighborhoods" because unsavory entities do not have my best interests at heart.

just because entities are dead, invisible, or non-physical does not make them smart, safe, or trustowrthy.

Nothing to do with fear.  everything to do with common sense, discernment, safety, and wisdom.

 

"ultimate freedom as one has learned ultimate influence and control of oneself at the very real and absolute level. "

Surrendering control, not seeking more of it.

Let go and let God.

Let go of attachments.

Ultimate freedom is I will to do Thy will.

Ultimate freedom is pure awareness.

Ultimate freedom is observe and let it go.

The very real and absolute level is no-time, no-space, no-form and the material world (the universe and everything in it) is a dream.  

 

" bring your dead best friend back to life"

nope, not a goal.

If i petition God through prayer, then the Divine can work miracles.

My focus is on relationship with the Divine.

My focus is on Source. 

 

 

Thank you Jadespear for very thoughtful discussion on various elements of this topic.

 

 

...so poetic. 

 

Sadly, petitioning other beings keeps you in a state of lesser being.  You will never rise above what you fear.  Asking others to help you, when you can help yourself is actually in a way disrespectful and selfish.  

 

Complete and absolute control over nature is the way of true yogis, so they can live peacefully.  You seem to be confusing the intent of learning a lot.  Without knowledge and applied control, you can't do anything.  You exercise both all the time but only to the levels that you can, as we all do.  The attitude of gracefully accepting all the pain and misery of life isn't noble or even intelligent, compared to what you could do and how you could live your life.  Thats why transcendent people leave modern civilization a lot, they have no need for the machine of slavery that cages them.   

 

Just saying this all, because I don't like how afraid people are on this subject.  Being religious is one thing, thats fine.  Being someone who can perform "miracles" to untrained or uninitiated eyes isn't a bad goal per se, its just like anything else...its worth is based on what you intend to do with it.  But you have to know how to do anything for it to even be a possibility for you.  

 

Exiting the cycle of re-birth? But yet, you petition god ... so you hate his creation but yet believe that he will grant you the aims of your request?  Doesn't make much sense to me... thats like saying, "Hey, I hate this place that you've worked so hard to create and maintain and I see no value in it anymore, please do what I beg you for."  

 

The gist of what you are saying is basically what?  You want to be someone who does nothing in the world, but sits around and observes it?  Woah, so profound.  

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

 

2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

 

...so poetic. 

 

Sadly, petitioning other beings keeps you in a state of lesser being.  You will never rise above what you fear.  Asking others to help you, when you can help yourself is actually in a way disrespectful and selfish. 

 

Complete and absolute control over nature is the way of true yogis, so they can live peacefully.  You seem to be confusing the intent of learning a lot.  Without knowledge and applied control, you can't do anything.  You exercise both all the time but only to the levels that you can, as we all do.  The attitude of gracefully accepting all the pain and misery of life isn't noble or even intelligent, compared to what you could do and how you could live your life.  Thats why transcendent people leave modern civilization a lot, they have no need for the machine of slavery that cages them.   

 

Just saying this all, because I don't like how afraid people are on this subject.  Being religious is one thing, thats fine.  Being someone who can perform "miracles" to untrained or uninitiated eyes isn't a bad goal per se, its just like anything else...its worth is based on what you intend to do with it.  But you have to know how to do anything for it to even be a possibility for you.  

Exiting the cycle of re-birth? But yet, you petition god ... so you hate his creation but yet believe that he will grant you the aims of your request?  Doesn't make much sense to me... thats like saying, "Hey, I hate this place that you've worked so hard to create and maintain and I see no value in it anymore, please do what I beg you for."  

 

The gist of what you are saying is basically what?  You want to be someone who does nothing in the world, but sits around and observes it?  Woah, so profound.  

 

Thank you for providing more detail on your views and frame of reference.

 

Bold above "complete and absolute control over nature" is an excellent nutshell overview and summary of purpose.  And the question in bold above "The gist of what you are saying is basically what?" invites me to also summarize.  Hmmmm.  That is a useful exercise.  

 

If the central focus of magic is control then the central focus for me is Source.

longer version? let's try some out.   Awaken from the dream. Before thinking, before thought.  The part of me that is infinite.  Unborn, uncreated, unformed, unchanging, no beginning, no end, no time, no space, no form, always was, always will be.

 

 

We see things differently and that's OK.  There is a path and a practice for everyone.  We have free will to choose from the vast array on offer.

 

Edited June 21 by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

ok, so what is nirvana then? 

 

Someone else can reply to the question asked "what is Nirvana."

Edited June 21 by BigSkyDiamond

[Jadespear]

Ok, cool.  

 

Because this is a taoist forum.  Please remember what taoism is.  Taoism is the philosophy of life and evolution.  Created by people to steward heir progress as beings.  Per taoist philosophy - life is to live and to evolve.  All being go through evolution.  To advance into classes of higher beings - is what taoism and many other schools are about.  Why is this so?  Because there are basically two alternatives that do not serve a being well - namely; regression or devolution, and stagnation.  

 

Taosit "immortals" are transcendent beings who seek to live in harmony and peace with the Tao, and to serve the Tao as they are a part of it.  To serve the Tao is also to serve oneself well.  

[Krenx]

3 hours ago, Jadespear said:

ok, so what is nirvana then? 

 

It is to end craving/ the root of suffering. Complete understanding of the phenomena. The end of aging sickness and death. Never to be reborn again in the world. 

 

It is a superhuman feat.

 

So what is the sign that someone has completely understood phenomena? What is the qualities of measure? Kinds of practice, the key focus? This sutta describes it quite directly.  

 

(Topic might be shifting out of focus from original question. Mods might start reeling this one in.)

 

SN23.4

 

At Sāvatthī.

 

Then Venerable Rādha went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to him:

 

“Rādha, I will teach you the things that should be completely understood, complete understanding, and the person who has completely understood. Listen and apply your mind well, I will speak.”

 

“Yes, sir,” Rādha replied. The Buddha said this:

 

“And what things should be completely understood? Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness. These are called the things that should be completely understood.

 

And what is complete understanding? The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is called complete understanding.

 

And what is the person who has completely understood? It should be said: a perfected one, the venerable of such and such name and clan. This is called the person who has completely understood.”

[BigSkyDiamond]

2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

Ok, cool.  

 

Because this is a taoist forum.  Please remember what taoism is.  Taoism is the philosophy of life and evolution.  Created by people to steward heir progress as beings.  Per taoist philosophy - life is to live and to evolve.  All being go through evolution.  To advance into classes of higher beings - is what taoism and many other schools are about.  Why is this so?  Because there are basically two alternatives that do not serve a being well - namely; regression or devolution, and stagnation.  

 

Taosit "immortals" are transcendent beings who seek to live in harmony and peace with the Tao, and to serve the Tao as they are a part of it.  To serve the Tao is also to serve oneself well.  

 

return to Source

is squarely in the framework of Tao Te Ching

 

our focus may be different.  my focus is the Tao Te Ching.  your focus (as I understand it) may be practices that have appeared over time and in great variety within the religion of Taoism.   

 

when the focus frame of reference is  on the material plane (the ten thousand things, the universe and everything in it) then it sees "immortal" as it relates to the physical body.  When the focus is instead on the source of the ten thousand things  (top of the heap, see verse 42 below, Tao), then it is a map of how physical reality emerges from the non-physical.  It is also a map the other way for its return, climbing the ladder back up. Return to Source.  For instance one step on that climb back up the ladder is shifting our frame of reference from duality to non-duality; from multiplicity to oneness.

 

The non-physical (Tao) gives rise to the physical (the ten thousand things).

The ten thousand things change, they are finite, they are a multiplicity.  They have time, space, form, they come and go, they have a beginning and an end. They live and die, gain and loss.

 

The Tao gives rise to those but is not those.  It is unchanging, unborn, uncreated, unformed, no beginning, no end, no time, no space, no form, always was, always will be.  The infinite part of me as a human is also that.  So "immortality" is not attained because i already have it.  The physical body, no.  The infinite part of me, yes.

 

That is my understanding.  Here is a sample translation of first four lines verse 42:

 

"Tao begets one.
One begets two.
Two beget three.
And three beget the Ten Thousand Things."

 

 

my apologies if this has veered off topic.  The parallel with "God interacting with humans" (thread topic) is that many traditions also recognize the soul or spirit that comes from God before birth, enters the human body which eventually dies, but the soul does not die, it came from God and returns to God.  In many traditions God is also whole complete perfect creates and sustains everything (the universe and everything in it), is the source unchanging always was always will be, not bound by time or space or form.  

 

Edited June 21 by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

… focus … the Tao Te Ching

… focus …  the religion of Taoism

imo this is a very important distinction to make - these two say very different things.

 

 

Edited June 21 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

…  "immortality" is not attained because i already have it.  The physical body, no. The infinite part of me, yes.

 

I agree.

E.g. 

神 不 死   (shen2 bu4 si3)  the soul never dies  [from first line ch. 6]

天 長 地 久  (tian1 chang2 di4 jiu3) Heaven is eternal; earth is temporal.  [first line ch. 7]

 

Edited June 21 by Cobie

[BigSkyDiamond]

ooooh!  i like it!

thanks for this

 

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

I agree.



… 神 不 死   (shen2 bu4 si3)   … the soul never dies  [ first line ch. 6 ]

天 長 地 久                 tian1 chang2 di4 jiu3          Heaven is eternal; earth is temporal.  [ first line ch. 7 ]

 

Edited June 21 by BigSkyDiamond

[Lairg]

4 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

many traditions also recognize the soul or spirit that comes from God before birth, enters the human body which eventually dies, but the soul does not die, it came from God and returns to God.

 

This account is suitable for some purposes but when dealing technically with situations, a more detailed analysis may be required.

 

For example in ancient Egypt and in the Kabbalah, the human has 5 souls

 

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Jadespear said:

 

...so poetic. 

 

Sadly, petitioning other beings keeps you in a state of lesser being.  You will never rise above what you fear.  Asking others to help you, when you can help yourself is actually in a way disrespectful and selfish.  

 

Complete and absolute control over nature is the way of true yogis, so they can live peacefully.  You seem to be confusing the intent of learning a lot.  Without knowledge and applied control, you can't do anything.  You exercise both all the time but only to the levels that you can, as we all do.  The attitude of gracefully accepting all the pain and misery of life isn't noble or even intelligent, compared to what you could do and how you could live your life.  Thats why transcendent people leave modern civilization a lot, they have no need for the machine of slavery that cages them.   

 

Just saying this all, because I don't like how afraid people are on this subject.  Being religious is one thing, thats fine.  Being someone who can perform "miracles" to untrained or uninitiated eyes isn't a bad goal per se, its just like anything else...its worth is based on what you intend to do with it.  But you have to know how to do anything for it to even be a possibility for you.  

 

Exiting the cycle of re-birth? But yet, you petition god ... so you hate his creation but yet believe that he will grant you the aims of your request?  Doesn't make much sense to me... thats like saying, "Hey, I hate this place that you've worked so hard to create and maintain and I see no value in it anymore, please do what I beg you for."  

 

The gist of what you are saying is basically what?  You want to be someone who does nothing in the world, but sits around and observes it?  Woah, so profound.  

 

 

 

 

That sentiment is one I have often commented on . I see it like this- to put it simply  ;

 

Some traditions seek enlightenment in order to retire in contemplation . Others seek it to better full fill their life's work and mission here .  For example in the old Sufi tradition , if you were a brick layer and devoted yourself to spirituality  as well , then  when you achieved enlightenment  you would become an enlightened brick layer  and contribute your insight and genius to society .  Nothing would stop you from observing , commenting , teaching others .... maybe the enlightened brick layer would lecture in the mosque . 

 

I watched one once , busily laying brick after brick . he was asked about the plan and design . There wasn't one , he sorta 'chanelled it' as he went along  - intuitively   .  He was asked how he knew if what he was building would be suitable for the clients taste . That wasn't a problem as he knew them , he knew everyone in the town , their likes dislikes and way they wanted to live ... intuitively, and it came out brick by brick 'in the moment '.

 

Or a tiler . They work differently getting deeply involved in design , using 'sacred geometry '   and conscious calculations .

 

These type of arts are mostly lost  , but their beautiful work remains in some places .  As an architect once said ; ' A Great Architect is one that knows how to design houses that make the people that live in them feel good and happy  and healthy and allows their particular lifestyle to function well . A bad architect is one  that , no matter how he is acclaimed , no matter how much money or fame he has accrued , has to have his building torn down after 20 years as its ineffeciant, unhealthy u functional and did not make people happy .'   Yeah ! 

 

 

 

- another thing I note .  Some people think  'siddhis' are the aim of magic  .  They understand that they are not the end aim in eastern systems  ( even though some think they are , say they are , and practice as if they are , in those systems  ) yet can not seem to envision the aim of  western Magick   beyond the manifestation of 'powers' or siddhis .  

 

probably due to the issue that magic suffered a lot of ignorant input during the Middle Ages and at other times . Just like the eastern traditions suffered ignorant input and practitioners  at certain times ,  and both still suffer that from current practitioners . 

[Nungali]

25 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

This account is suitable for some purposes but when dealing technically with situations, a more detailed analysis may be required.

 

For example in ancient Egypt and in the Kabbalah, the human has 5 souls

 

 

 

That's not really correct though .  EG for Egyptian did you count the 'Ren' ? Not many moderns do, but the Egyptians certainly did and gave it importance . It gets left out nowadays as it doesn't fit in with our modern importance .   Its 'their ' ( Egyptians  ) concept .  We can say validly that the Egyptians had a concept of 7 souls . 

 

So some 'situations'  being dealt with , might require  an  even more detailed analysis  than casually  claiming Egyptians and Hebrews have the same number of souls .

 

Or, indeed, even what one person is talking about 'one soul' ... what 'soul' even means , to them . 

 

if I asked a modern person ; " Is your name  one of the souls you have ? ''  - its all tied in with different peoples different concepts of identity .

 

Would the modern person  count the Hebraic ' Nefesh Habamit'  -   the 'animal soul'  - the instincts , desires , body functions and autonomous systems  the same , or as  'one of their five souls'   as the  Nefesh HaElohit '    ?  .. which most westerners would equate to what they think of as their  (one )  soul. 

 

But, many a good Rabbi would urge us to concentrate on two souls . let;'s see what Chabad has to say 

 

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/6214357/jewish/3-The-Inner-Struggle.htm

 

.

Edited June 21 by Nungali

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

This account is suitable for some purposes but when dealing technically with situations, a more detailed analysis may be required.

 

For example in ancient Egypt and in the Kabbalah, the human has 5 souls

 

For Kabbalah:  The Midrash states that the soul has five names (so not five souls).  Kabbalah explains that these five names of the soul  correspond to the level of the soul in each of five areas.  Just as there are many different names for God, to indicate specific attributes or characteristics of God.  So too there are different names for the soul to indicate specific aspects of  the soul.

 

one God, many names

one soul, five names, in Kabbalah

 

[always good to see Lairg posting !)

and yes the post makes a very valid point.  Greater detail is needed for additional depth of understanding and practical application.  i agree.

 

Edited June 21 by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

in Kaballah,  here are the five names for the soul, five levels of the soul, and corresponding "attribute" as they manifest for a human.   Listed in ascending order from lowest to highest.

Nefesh
awareness of the physical body and the physical world

 

Ruach
the primary manifestation of Ruach is in the emotions

Neshama
The primary activity of the Neshama is in the conceptual grasp of the intellect

 

Chaya
complete nullification of the ego; knowledge of the absolute truth of things 
(i.e. knowing how God is not limited or defined by the finite universe)

Yechida
highest level of the soul, cleaves to and reflects the original Infinite Light
 

Edited June 21 by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

Its 5 in Lurianic Kabbalah .... 4 in more common versions . . .  maybe due to the 'top version' being beyond our comprehension . 

 

What about the Egyptian  ?    Their view is somewhat different and seems to be that different aspects come from different sources and the 'key to immortality ' (in the latter period when the concept extended from King to nobles then eventually everyone )  lay in a combination of them during life and after death .

 

The Sahu  is generated by interaction between  Kha, Ba and Khat  . 

[BigSkyDiamond]

i can speak to Kabbalah. 

Others can provide detail on Egyptian frame of reference.

 

Kabbalah is the mystical teachings of Judaism, with a lineage that goes back 3,500 years.  Published works date back 2,000 years, and prior to 2,000 years ago the teaching was an oral tradition.  

 

Edited June 22 by BigSkyDiamond

[Lairg]

15 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

Nefesh
awareness of the physical body and the physical world

 

Ruach
the primary manifestation of Ruach is in the emotions

Neshama
The primary activity of the Neshama is in the conceptual grasp of the intellect

 

Chaya
complete nullification of the ego; knowledge of the absolute truth of things 
(i.e. knowing how God is not limited or defined by the finite universe)

Yechida
highest level of the soul, cleaves to and reflects the original Infinite Light

 

Quite so - and control of those 5 levels (with other preconditions) qualifies the human for third stage enlightenment, and for exit from the human kingdom - retaining a human format while convenient

 

At that stage the ex-human is thrust into its cosmic duties

 

 

Edited June 22 by Lairg

[Nungali]

You hope to  'control'  Yechida   at some stage ?  

[BigSkyDiamond]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

You hope to  'control'  Yechida   at some stage ?  

 

Magic is a framework of control.  Control is central to magic.

 

Kabbalah is not a framework of control.  Divinity is central to Kabbalah.  Because Divinity is central to Judaism, and Kabbalah exists within the framework of Judaism.

 

if the teachings have been distorted to something other than that by other groups or individuals, then it is not Kabbalah.

 

Edited June 22 by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

10 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

i can speak to Kabbalah. 

Others can provide detail on Egyptian frame of reference.

 

 

It might be the other way around : 

 

The Egyptian system held the 'frame of reference' for the development of the Hebrew concepts . Pre Josiah the 'Jewish' concepts and land and governance were Egyptian ... even the  Egyptian King  'was with God' and being 'obedient to his directives' ... it even says that in the Bible ( well, the Hebrew Bible , as that is who we are talking about, not the Christians ) 

 

The concepts of one souls and one only God  and the idea of Israel / Judah  being one kingdom and united  seem post Josiah and influenced by Greek philosophy . 

 

According to academic studies of scripture, archaeology and history . 

[Nungali]

4 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Magic is a framework of control.  Control is central to magic.

Kabbalah is not a framework of control.  Divinity is central to Kabbalah.  Because Divinity is central to Judaism, and Kabbalah exists within the framework of Judaism.

 

if the teachings have been distorted to something other than that, then it is not Kabbalah.

 

 

I was asking Lairg about that as it seemed to be his claim . 

[Nungali]

I should point out , although you claim something is NOT Kabbalah  due to the reasons you stated , it is still considered  ( pretty widely ) that  hermetic Kabbalah, although not traditional , is a TYPE of Kabbalah . 

 

A  simple summary of the 'issue '   -  

Traditional Kabbalah is a Jewish mystical tradition focused on esoteric interpretations of Jewish texts, aiming for communion with the divine. Hermetic Qabalah, on the other hand, is a syncretic system that blends Jewish Kabbalah with other Western esoteric traditions like Hermeticism, Neoplatonism, and astrology, creating a more inclusive and universal framework. While traditional Kabbalah is rooted in Jewish thought, Hermetic Qabalah incorporates elements from various sources to explore the underlying principles of the cosmos. 

Edited June 22 by Nungali

[BigSkyDiamond]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

It might be the other way around : 

The Egyptian system held the 'frame of reference' for the development of the Hebrew concepts . Pre Josiah the 'Jewish' concepts and land and governance were Egyptian ... even the  Egyptian King  'was with God' and being 'obedient to his directives' ... it even says that in the Bible ( well, the Hebrew Bible , as that is who we are talking about, not the Christians ) The concepts of one souls and one only God  and the idea of Israel / Judah  being one kingdom and united  seem post Josiah and influenced by Greek philosophy .  According to academic studies of scripture, archaeology and history . 

 

 

The distinguishing feature of Judaism at the time of its inception 3,500 years ago was that it introduced monotheism in a time and place that was decidedly not monotheistic.  Both ancient Egypt and ancient Greek theology was polytheism.