God interacting with humans.

[BigSkyDiamond]

 

thank you Lairg, it is always a treat to hear your insights on, well just about anything.

 

31 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

It looks like improper actions cause discomfort to the greater Entity/Logos within which soul-bearing species live. The discomfort results in a pressure on the relevant entity/group/planet to mend its ways.

 

Tradition indicates that the energy of karma is managed by "the recording angel", "the lipika lords". "the lords of karma".   In practice these entities operate at planetary, systemic, galactic levels etc.

 

Karma is like electricity, it follows lines of least resistance.   Thus as the human enters into the progressive stages of enlightenment, it is possible to request the Lords of Karma to move flows of group karma to other lines of least resistance.  With personal karma, the learning may have been achieved but the karmic energy is still in place.   Usually the Lords of Karma will remove such energy on request.

 

[Lairg]

I appreciate useful discussions

 

[Jadespear]

The lords of karma?  Sounds like the spirit beings of Saturn.  

 

Magic as low? Clearly you have a strange idea of what magic is... an actual "magician" is someone like Jesus or Buddha - who has the power to change another persons very destiny at will.  

 

Entities offering you things?  Seems like you've been targeted as a sucker.  

 

..."The way that can be followed is not the eternal way.  The name that can be named is not the eternal name."

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Jadespear said:

The lords of karma?  Sounds like the spirit beings of Saturn.  

 

Indeed !  "Karma' being used again as  a justification for all sorts of 'things' 

 

Its one thing to put it down here  .... that's bad enough . 

 

But  PLEASE   ' those that believe in THAT TYPE of karma BULLSHIT   .... please don't  suggest that a woman that gets raped by a policeman has some part  to play in it due to her 'past karma'  ... to anyone that has suffered that , or any  relative friend or even sympathetic person . 

 

Its rather revolting  .  Its even more revolting than   insisting someone should not 'be negative '  or critical of anyone's beliefs and projections here . 

 

 

.

Edited June 16 by Nungali

[BigSkyDiamond]

9 hours ago, Jadespear said:

The lords of karma?  Sounds like the spirit beings of Saturn.  

Magic as low? Clearly you have a strange idea of what magic is... an actual "magician" is someone like Jesus or Buddha - who has the power to change another persons very destiny at will.  

 

Divinity and magic are not the same.  They differ in mindset, intention, that which is accessed, and that which is attracted.

when i read "low" my understanding is that it may be referring to vibration or resonance.  

that might make an interesting thread topic, to provide further clarification on how magic and Divinity are not the same.  

 

just as there is a difference between God and gods, there is a difference between Divinity (God) and magic, between prayer and casting spells.

 

Edited June 16 by BigSkyDiamond

[Surya]

7 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

when i read "low" my understanding is that it may be referring to vibration or resonance.  

that might make an interesting thread topic, to provide further clarification on how magic and Divinity are not the same.  

Second that : )

[Surya]

On 12.6.2025 at 5:21 AM, BigSkyDiamond said:

i love how one teacher describes it.*  When the game of chess was invented with its rules, instantly every possible chess game was also created and "exists" based on the rules of chess.  So when someone is playing a chess game, no matter what moves they make, no matter how brilliant they are, that chess game already exists. 

 

Same thing for the universe and everything in it.  When the universe and everything in it was created, instantly every possible scenario simultaneously also came into existence.  So no matter what lifetime or life form or timeline we visit, it already exists.  It is very alluring and yes we have free will to stay as long as we want and play out as many of those scenarios that entice us.

 

we also have free will to leave.  because no matter how much someone loves playing chess or is entieced by the adventures of the universe we have free will to say enough is enough and exit. They get tired of chess and say get me out of here.

 

* [The teacher is Joachim Wolffram, five very slim paperback books in the series Althar the Crystal Dragon]

When I was a child, I loved chess, right. So much so that I at times attemptet to play with myself when there was nobody around: that is, play both side of the table, both black and white. Needless to say, didnt work that well. So in order to play this beautifull game of ours, some seperation is needed, it seems.

[Jadespear]

On 6/16/2025 at 2:43 AM, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Divinity and magic are not the same.  They differ in mindset, intention, that which is accessed, and that which is attracted.

when i read "low" my understanding is that it may be referring to vibration or resonance.  

that might make an interesting thread topic, to provide further clarification on how magic and Divinity are not the same.  

 

just as there is a difference between God and gods, there is a difference between Divinity (God) and magic, between prayer and casting spells.

 

 

Ok, well then I suppose your just left at semantics.  What exactly is "divinity" then?  Magic is widely regarded as the application of understanding of the laws that exist from divinity (whatever you want to call it).  Otherwise known as the difference between "being" (divinity) and "becoming" (magic).  

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Jadespear said:

 

Ok, well then I suppose your just left at semantics.  What exactly is "divinity" then?  Magic is widely regarded as the application of understanding of the laws that exist from divinity (whatever you want to call it).  Otherwise known as the difference between "being" (divinity) and "becoming" (magic).  

 

no it is not just semantics.  and no it is not just another word for the same thing.  That would make for a good thread topic, for those who seek to (a) clarify explore understand the difference between magic and divinity, and (b) differentiate between them.  just like there is a difference between big G "God" and little g "gods."

 

It would be interesting to hear from many who may be on a variety of paths, regarding their own frames of reference.  My understanding (frame of reference) is that magic is not a path to divinity.  Rather it is an obstacle, barrier, impediment.  Since this thread topic is "God interacting with humans" a different thread might prevent it from going too far off topic.  On the other hand, anyone whose path includes God, then those views on magic are relevant to the topic.  As it relates to "God interacting with humans"

 

 

 

Edited June 18 by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

 

On 16/06/2025 at 5:24 PM, Surya said:

… chess … in order to play this beautifull game of ours, some seperation is needed, it seems.

Exactly. And so imo it is also for the ‘game of life’. That’s why Wuji (無極 the origin, undifferentiated state) goes to Taiji (太極 existence, the state of differentiation/Yin and Yang [also “black and white” ].

 

 

Edited June 18 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

27 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

… It would be interesting to hear from many who may be on a variety of paths, regarding their own frames of reference. …

I think ‘magic’ thinks it can control, which imo is an illusion. My way (RC) is surrender to the divine. 
 

 

Edited June 18 by Cobie

[BigSkyDiamond]

On 6/15/2025 at 3:31 PM, Jadespear said:

Clearly you have a strange idea of what magic is... an actual "magician" is someone like Jesus or Buddha - who has the power to change another persons very destiny at will.  

 

i would be interested to hear from practitioners in those paths mentioned (bold above) regarding the view that Jesus and Buddha are "magicians."  My understanding is that while psychic abilities may  (and often do) develop as a byproduct of this or that path, they are a byproduct and not the destination.   Whereas in magic, the "psychic power" (or "supernatural" power) to control and manipulate IS the goal and destination .  

 

I had it explained to me this way some time ago:  The development of psychic powers is not considered the primary goal but rather a by-product of the spiritual journey toward Nirvana. The Buddha cautioned against becoming attached to or seeking out these powers, as they can be a distraction from the ultimate goal of spiritual liberation.

 

Edited June 18 by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

One of my favorite teachings (i love the stories of the sages) is the sage who even while young performed miracles, however the teaching of our tradition (then and now) is to NOT publicize these.  So when miracles occurred around him, he would erase the memory from any bystanders who happened to see the miracles.    They are not publicized because it sends the wrong message, and that is not the goal or destination, and it can lead people astray  (i.e. trying to develop the powers, putting an individual person on a pedestal, the opposite of humble) and detract from the message of relationship with God.  Relationship with God (in many traditions) is the goal and  message,  not parlor tricks.   

 

 

[Cobie]

 

31 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

I would be interested to hear from practitioners … regarding the view that Jesus … are "magicians." …

For RC, Jesus definitely is not a magician and psychic powers is not what it’s about.

 

 

Edited June 18 by Cobie

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

I think ‘magic’ thinks it can control, which imo is an illusion. My way (RC) is surrender to the divine. 
 

 

 

A LOT of magic is said to work by the operator FIRST surrendering to the divine  ... especially the medieval versions .  The 'control' was about  directing the forces of nature ... not directing or controlling divinity . 

 

You direct the forces of nature according to your will every time you put up an umbrella and divert the rain away from yourself .  Or turn on the tap to get a drink  , or   when you go out for your weekend   windsuit flying .... 

 

Go Coby !  

 

 

 

You don't have to stay wet to surrender to  the divine    

[BigSkyDiamond]

45 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

A LOT of magic is said to work by the operator FIRST surrendering to the divine  ... especially the medieval versions .  The 'control' was about  directing the forces of nature ... not directing or controlling divinity .   You direct the forces of nature according to your will every time you put up an umbrella and divert the rain away from yourself .  Or turn on the tap to get a drink  , or   when you go out for your weekend   windsuit flying .... You don't have to stay wet to surrender to  the divine   

 

i have never heard anywhere (until this post) that turning on a faucet or using an umbrella are "magic."  I have always considered them as simple mechanical devices.  And the fatality rate for wingsuit jumpers is one in 500.  However, if that is a person's frame of reference for magic, then so be it.

 

Edited June 19 by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

i have never heard anywhere (until this post) that turning on a faucet or using an umbrella are "magic." 

 

No ?  You should  expand  your  sources on the subject then . 

 

A VERY basic and well known one is   " Magic is just undiscovered science ' . 

 

But you may have never heard of that before   either ? 

 

2 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

They are simple mechanical devices.

 

They were also examples regarding the contextual point Cobie made about 'control' and 'surrender'  -  I made it simple for people that might have trouble with more complex examples ... but it seems , even at this level, its causing 'complexity' problems .   

 

Magic / simple mechanical devices ....  That depends on the state of the observer  ; 'undiscovered science ' to them , seems magic . 

 

Let's 'amp up' the complexity then   - an electrical generator  and what it can produce . You would have to get the basics of magnetism down first .  There is a good video out about it by the world's leading expert ... he starts off ; " Magnetism , what is it ?  We don't really know  ....  "        

 

2 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

  And the fatality rate for wingsuit jumpers is one in 500.  

 

and  that is supposed to indicate   ......      ?  

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

No ?  You should  expand  your  sources on the subject then .  A VERY basic and well known one is   " Magic is just undiscovered science ' . But you may have never heard of that before   either ? They were also examples regarding the contextual point Cobie made about 'control' and 'surrender'  -  I made it simple for people that might have trouble with more complex examples ... but it seems , even at this level, its causing 'complexity' problems .   

Magic / simple mechanical devices ....  That depends on the state of the observer  ; 'undiscovered science ' to them , seems magic . Let's 'amp up' the complexity then   - an electrical generator  and what it can produce . You would have to get the basics of magnetism down first .  There is a good video out about it by the world's leading expert ... he starts off ; " Magnetism , what is it ?  We don't really know  ....  "      

 

I don't conflate "magic" with "science." 

I also don't consider magnetism to be "magic."

 

However I do agree that it most definitely is dependent on the individual frame of reference that a person holds, their belief system.  

 

Edited June 19 by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

I don't conflate "magic" with "science." 

I also don't consider magnetism to be "magic."

 

However I do agree that it most definitely is dependent on the individual frame of reference that a person holds, their belief system.  

 

 

Obviously  .  What you conflate and consider is one thing .   I was referring to a common   conflating and understanding  that apparently you had never heard of .  

 

Perhaps you have not heard of the 'Yellow School' of Magick either ?   Its a form that seems like its underlying principles are similar to Daoism ... that is , it seems to make changes by utilizing the inherent properties of a thing  and natural laws ,  it s ' mercurial branch' of Magick,  in that,  to seek to  make change using natural laws and abilities , one needs to develop a knowledge and understanding of what those laws and abilities are  and what their limits are .    Its in opposition to 'non mercurial' Magick  - where people try to make change  according to a whim, fantasy ,  'force of will power' , illusion , etc . 

[BigSkyDiamond]

57 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Perhaps you have not heard of the 'Yellow School' of Magick either ?   Its a form that seems like its underlying principles are similar to Daoism ... that is , it seems to make changes by utilizing the inherent properties of a thing  and natural laws ,  it s ' mercurial branch' of Magick,  in that,  to seek to  make change using natural laws and abilities , one needs to develop a knowledge and understanding of what those laws and abilities are  and what their limits are .    Its in opposition to 'non mercurial' Magick  - where people try to make change  according to a whim, fantasy ,  'force of will power' , illusion , etc . 

 

a new person has joined and expressed an interest in "magical practices, occult traditions, and Chinese folk religion" so they might find you to be a useful resource; they are user Electric Sekhmet.

Edited June 19 by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

25 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Where in the Tao Te Ching is magic referenced, which verses please?

 

I'm a bit confused as why you ask this under the quote from me that you  quoted  .   The better question might be the other way around ;  where in magic is the Tao Te Ching  and  method of Daoism practiced . 

 

With a bit of contemplation on what I wrote above    one might realize that Daoism has a certain way of approaching things .... and that is all through the TTC   ... its an  attitude  of magic  that is similar to  the attitude in Daoism  that makes that school or view of Magick the way it is , as I described above . 

 

It isn't a school of western Magick that is taken from the TTC ... if that is what you thought I meant . 

 

I wonder what AI says about        

 

AI Overview

 

The Tao Te Ching doesn't focus on magic in the sense of supernatural abilities or rituals. Instead, it emphasizes the inherent power and mystery of the Tao, which can be understood as a natural, underlying principle or force governing the universe. The "magic" lies in aligning oneself with this force through practices like non-action (wu wei) and understanding the interconnectedness of all things. 

 

Oh ... AI sorta says what I did  .   That last phrase is interesting ; 

 

" understanding the interconnectedness of all things " 

 

 what many people do not understand ( and what makes modern Magick seem rubbish ) is the all important issue of the 'medium of transference ' ;  in earlier times the common cosmology allowed it . Later as cosmology developed  ( heliocentric  plus other discoveries )   that fell apart , now offering no commonly  observable transference medium  and resulting in a modern magical "just because '' or '' because I say so '' cause and effect in magic .  

 

Quote

 

-----

on a different note, a new person has joined and expressed an interest in "magical practices, occult traditions, and Chinese folk religion" so they might find you to be a useful resource; they are user Electric Sekhmet.

 

(Edit ;    see below )  

 

.

Edited June 19 by Nungali

[Nungali]

On the second part .... I was intrigued by  'Electric Sekhmet' s  name . They have been notified of my existence by Cobie already . 

 

But now I tend not to  get too involved with new people unless they seek me out and/ or respond to me in some way ... unless they write something really interesting . 

 

Lately there have been people joining up and declaring all sorts of interests and intents, one responds   ( or other members  do )  ... and that's all one ever  hears from them again  .  (  ... unless they get suddenly ' deported '  or something  ?      )

 

 

[Jadespear]

On 6/18/2025 at 3:16 PM, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

i would be interested to hear from practitioners in those paths mentioned (bold above) regarding the view that Jesus and Buddha are "magicians."  My understanding is that while psychic abilities may  (and often do) develop as a byproduct of this or that path, they are a byproduct and not the destination.   Whereas in magic, the "psychic power" (or "supernatural" power) to control and manipulate IS the goal and destination .  

 

I had it explained to me this way some time ago:  The development of psychic powers is not considered the primary goal but rather a by-product of the spiritual journey toward Nirvana. The Buddha cautioned against becoming attached to or seeking out these powers, as they can be a distraction from the ultimate goal of spiritual liberation.

 

 

The term "magician" is simply meant to mean someone who understands and can apply deeper knowledge of the unseen than someone who cannot.  A basic fundamental understanding of such things is the basis of any esoteric spiritual pathway, as without understanding it there is nothing but religious attitudes.  Nirvana is yet another word I find often misunderstood...it's a state of mind, nothing more.  So, if you think that going through life with only a state of mind at your use is fine, well great.  Perhaps it is all that one needs at times.  However, it becomes something different when one wants to investigate what things are and why - things that only esoteric sciences conceal in spiritual schools...magic has been such a school / way of initiation for all of human history.

 

Whoever explained that to you sounds like someone who is afraid.  The whole point of learning is to abolish fear.  Why is it so dangerous to want to learn about what one can truly do and accomplish in the phenomenal world?  Obviously, a balanced person with common sense already knows the wisdom of when to not do things and how to not inflate their own ego or go crazy in this pursuit.  If they don't... they learn it the hard way.  The pursuit of ones divine expression is aimed at ultimate freedom as one has learned ultimate influence and control of oneself at the very real and absolute level.  

 

Jesus of Nazareth raised Lazarus from the dead because he did not want his friend to die for no reason.  Are you telling me that if you had the ability to bring your dead best friend back to life after they were hit by a drunk driver - you wouldn't, because some guy told you not to?

 

People who advance in these respects are called to do things beyond what everyone in the world sees.  Thats the whole point... you learn so you can do.  

Edited June 20 by Jadespear

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Jadespear said:

 

The term "magician" is simply meant to mean someone who understands and can apply deeper knowledge of the unseen than someone who cannot.  A basic fundamental understanding of such things is the basis of any esoteric spiritual pathway, as without understanding it there is nothing but religious attitudes.  Nirvana is yet another word I find often misunderstood...it's a state of mind, nothing more.  So, if you think that going through life with only a state of mind at your use is fine, well great.

 

my observation is that assessment of "what is Nirvana" is not accurate.  It shows a lack of understanding what Nirvana is and what it entails.  Nirvana is not a thought process or mental gymnastics, which is how i read "just a state of mind, nothing more." Regarding "Nirvana is misunderstood" the post above is an example and demonstration of that.   

 

it is dicey and skating on thin ice for someone to make sweeping generalizations about a tradition not their own.  "Nirvana is this"  "Jesus is this"   "Buddha is this."  Because within the tradition it is often seen very very differently.  It can show a lack of regard and respect to make statements like that.  And it shows ignorance (not an attack on anyone posting, used as it is defined "lack of knowledge or information").  Labeling a religious figure "a magician" from another tradition can be deeply insulting and offensive.  Because in that tradition it may be seen as a pejorative.   Also trying to paste one's own belief system onto another path or tradition can come across  as paternalistic, condescending, patronizing.

 

i am discussing generic behaviors here and generic views, not any specific individuals posting or their personal views.

 

Edited June 20 by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

 

1 hour ago, Jadespear said:

 A basic fundamental understanding of such things is the basis of any esoteric spiritual pathway, as without understanding it there is nothing but religious attitudes. ... it becomes something different when one wants to investigate what things are and why - things that only esoteric sciences conceal in spiritual schools...magic has been such a school / way of initiation for all of human history.

 

Whoever explained that to you sounds like someone who is afraid.  The whole point of learning is to abolish fear.

 

Within varioius religious traditions, a distinction is made and the differences are recognized between "magic" and the divine.  There are esoteric bodies of knowledge and practice within religious traditions, that are not available to everyone and are not taught to the masses.  There are valid reasons for that.  (This discussion appears over on the 242-page qigong thread, too, how and why the "inner secrets" of a lineage have been kept secret, and when they are revealed, under what circumstances and to whom.)

 

At a superficial level it can be seen as "religion is afraid" or "religion is superstitious" or "religion is primitive does not understand the science of magic"  (condescending much?) But there are valid reasons why "magic" is advised against in many tradition that have far more depth than those superficial knee jerk judgments.  This is not a criticism of anyone's path or practice.  It is how other paths may view "magic" and why it is avoided and advised against.

 

Edited June 20 by BigSkyDiamond