I started meditating to relax and I ended up sobbing with rage - am I stange?

[BigSkyDiamond]

I tend to favor the simple and straightforward.

 

"Meditation is an exercise that trains attention and awareness. Its purpose is often to curb reactivity to one's thoughts and feelings, which, though they may be disturbing and upsetting and hijack attention from moment to moment, are invariably fleeting."

 

from Psychology Today

a secular source, but what it states is at the core of many practices aimed at Realization

 

Edited Monday at 08:01 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

 

13 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

… thoughts and feelings … are invariably fleeting …

Yes, and also - not real!  They cannot do any harm. Any harm comes from the ‘reacting’. 
 

 

[Cobie]

Proactivity vs Reactivity

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 09:01 PM by Cobie

[BigSkyDiamond]

35 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Proactivity vs Reactivity

 

yes.  big difference between reacting and responding.

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Yes, and also - not real!  They cannot do any harm. Any harm comes from the ‘reacting’. 

 

it just dawned on me how "real" is at the core of Realization.

an earlier post mentions that, it is about recognizing what is real.

i like this very much:

 

On 8/9/2025 at 12:27 PM, Apech said:

is about the intent and purpose which is becoming aware of reality. As the Buddha said it’s about seeing things as they really are.

[steve]

21 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I believe it's chasing, in a dark room, a black cat who isn't there.    

 

One of the practices in dzogchen is spending time in a completely dark room, dark retreat. Visions develop and the practice is to stay in the nature of mind, recognizing that all appearances are generated by the mind. I wonder if anyone has had a vision of a black cat in the dark retreat. If you chase it, you fail!

🤣

 

21 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

 

As some may (or more likely may not) remember, I came to taoism from dzogchen, many moons ago, and the way I was taught dzogchen meditation, you had your eyes open, looking past the tip of your nose at nothing in particular but placing your awareness in your eyes.  I don't know if there's other ways (would have to ask Steve since I didn't take it far with that practice, it was still an experimental stage for me).  But even with my eyes open I would occasionally just feel sleepy and, realizing it, proceed straight to bed.  I asked my teacher then what I was doing wrong.  His response: "Nothing.  You must be chronically underslept."  Which I was at the time.  So he goes, "Then you're doing it right.  A sign of meditation done right is, it gives you what you need.  Not what you want.  What you need."  I made a note of it...       

 

 

I remember that because our trajectories were opposite, I got my foundation in Daoist meditation.

 

Yes, dzogchen practice is done with open eyes. Open but not resting or focused on anything in particular, meditation without an object. Bear in mind that it is traditionally preceded by a practice called zhinè, meditation with an object. One spends weeks or months staring at the Tibetan letter A, until the mind has stabilized and a distinction can be clearly made between its content and its nature. So when the transition moves from practice with an object to practice without, one is already accustomed to practicing with the eyes open. 

 

I didn’t get the zhinè instruction until I’d already been practicing without an object for about a year due to the timing of when I met my teacher. It was a definite obstacle for a while to practice with eyes open but then the zhinè came more easily.

[BigSkyDiamond]

32 minutes ago, steve said:

One of the practices in dzogchen is spending time in a completely dark room, dark retreat. Visions develop and the practice is to stay in the nature of mind, recognizing that all appearances are generated by the mind.

 

and the natural extension of this is to recognize that  "all appearances" includes also everything i see when my eyes are open too.  All physical objects, the table the books, the trees, the streets, the cars and airplanes and planets and galaxies.  

 

All appearances are generated by the mind.  Yes.

Basically, the universe and everything in it, is all in my head, generated by the mind.

 

(And the logical extension of that then, is that each person generates and views their own universe.)  

That is my understanding.  I am curious to hear from Steve (or anyone) on  where Dzogchen (or any other tradition) stands on that.   

 

32 minutes ago, steve said:

It was a definite obstacle for a while to practice with eyes open but then the zhinè came more easily.

 

 

Edited Monday at 11:17 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Yes, and also - not real!  They cannot do any harm. Any harm comes from the ‘reacting’. 
 

 

 

Hmmmm ..... this made me ponder  ... and fluctuate  .....   yes, the harm does not occur unless there is some 'reaction' to the thoughts . 

 

The ancient ; 'Good thoughts, good words, good deeds  ' ( and the three main principles of behavior in Zoroastrianism )  - one 'leads' to the other , so I suppose this is  'reacting'  . 

 

However  also  'good'   can come from 'not real'  thoughts  :  

 

'  

....   learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.

 

Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that "the thought of foolishness is sin." Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do?  

 

"

[Taomeow]

8 minutes ago, steve said:

 

One of the practices in dzogchen is spending time in a completely dark room, dark retreat. Visions develop and the practice is to stay in the nature of mind, recognizing that all appearances are generated by the mind. I wonder if anyone has had a vision of a black cat in the dark retreat. If you chase it, you fail!

🤣

 

 

We also have dark retreats in taoism.  As for chasing cats, this reminded me of an episode from the The Game of Thrones (which I happened to have read before the TV series appeared).  One of the advanced exercises Arya got from her taoist-ish master was to chase cats in dark alleys.  The master required proof of her having caught the cat -- she had to bring every captured cat to him.  Then the cat was out of the bag.  

 

As for me, I'd  only had visions of a black jaguar in the Amazon, but far from chasing it, I evaded it...  At the get-go ayahuasca makes one blind for something like an hour, by temporarily paralyzing the visual cortex -- which is one reason the shamanic ceremony takes place in complete darkness so that freaking out over it doesn't interfere.  So at one point I stepped out of the dark premises into the dark jungle and promptly got lost.  I was lost in vast space, funky nonlinear time, and actual physical whereabouts...  plus that black jaguar, no telling whether actual or "of the mind."  Luckily then I had a vision of AC/DC  -- or rather an auditory prompt.  I had no memory of which way I turned when stepping out the door, and they sang into my ear, "Our balls are always swinging to the left and to the right" -- and so I knew I had to turn left, then right, to get back.  

[BigSkyDiamond]

38 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

....   learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.

 

Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that "the thought of foolishness is sin." Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do?  

 

The quote above, which is not attributed in the post, appears in a Thelemagick publication, and is from Golden Dawn lectures.  The identifying logo displayed is the Seal of Argenteum Astrum, a magical order founded by Aleister Crowley, and closely associated with Thelema, a philisophical and religious system also established by Crowley.  A central tenet of Thelema is, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."  Golden Dawn was an earlier hermetic magical order, and influenced Crowley.

 

 

Edited Monday at 11:58 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

5 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

We also have dark retreats in taoism.  As for chasing cats, this reminded me of an episode from the The Game of Thrones (which I happened to have read before the TV series appeared).  One of the advanced exercises Arya got from her taoist-ish master was to chase cats in dark alleys.  The master required proof of her having caught the cat -- she had to bring every captured cat to him.  Then the cat was out of the bag.  

 

As for me, I'd  only had visions of a black jaguar in the Amazon, but far from chasing it, I evaded it...  At the get-go ayahuasca makes one blind for something like an hour, by temporarily paralyzing the visual cortex -- which is one reason the shamanic ceremony takes place in complete darkness so that freaking out over it doesn't interfere.  So at one point I stepped out of the dark premises into the dark jungle and promptly got lost.  I was lost in vast space, funky nonlinear time, and actual physical whereabouts...  plus that black jaguar, no telling whether actual or "of the mind."  Luckily then I had a vision of AC/DC  -- or rather an auditory prompt.  I had no memory of which way I turned when stepping out the door, and they sang into my ear, "Our balls are always swinging to the left and to the right" -- and so I knew I had to turn left, then right, to get back.  

 

 

Going blind for an hour ?  having your visual cortex paralyzed ... spewing .... having to 'go to the jungle '   and worse !  ... having to listen to AC/DC !  My goodness , why do people do that ?   

 

Anyway , no black cats here  and no Ayahuasca  ..... although ,    there was once a  wallaby  in the back yard that was acting a bit strange ;  it came right down to the house and started listening to some  ritual  (indigenous  ) music that was playing ... and started sort of dancing and swaying to it  and then it jumped through the big glass window  next to my bed ! 

 

But the window didn't break  ????   Now  Paddy is dancing in the middle of my cabin , then he turned into an Aboriginal styled painting of himself . Then other animals started coming inside  and joining in the dance in a big circle and they all turned into  'Aboriginal art ' versions of themselves . And then they all   formed a   rotating pulsating Aboriginal art mandala  around me .... and then I traveled back in time and the cabin and everything modern disappeared  and I was out in the desert in a ceremony, that involved two lines of elders  whumping sticks on the ground providing rhythm for didgeridoo drones  and wailing chants in ancient tongues  and   'certain  other things' culminating in me being forced into a rock crack  which led to a huge cave inside bigger than the rock that contained it ..... and my  dead Grandfather was in there  !   

 

But I would not take Ayahuasca  ....  all that crazy shit that comes up for ya ..... no thanks      

[Cobie]

 

37 minutes ago, steve said:

… spending time in a completely dark room …

 

To me that’s like being inside my own mind. 

 

37 minutes ago, steve said:

Visions develop … all … generated by the mind. …

Teaching that thoughts are not real. 
 

 

 

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

The quote above, which is not attributed in the post, appears in a Thelemagick publication, and is from Golden Dawn lectures. 

 

It appears in many places .... it also appears  you did a quick internet search and came upon ONE of those places   . . . some 'Thelemagick'   publication . 

 

 

8 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

 

The identifying logo displayed is the Seal of Argenteum Astrum, a magical order founded by Aleister Crowley, and closely associated with Thelema, a philisophical and religious system also established by Crowley. 

 

As one might expect from anything with a name like 'Thelemagick '      . The AA 'stamped' all sports of other peoples work as valid  or pertaining to a specific curriculum level . 

 

Yes, Crowley established a certain tradition , the AA didn't really take off , but this does not mean many of its ( nor his ) precepts , teachings etc,  came from Crowley . I am sure someone as educated as you seem to be  .... realizes 'Thelema' itself is an older idea than Crowley's 'invention ' , a lot of his stuff was 'lifted ' , borrowed or even plagiarized from other sources ,,, including the basic premises and extensions of 'Thelema'   .  

 

Its an interesting topic and  rather crucial to the development of  the modern western occult/magical/spiritual   tradition  ,  we could discuss it further  if you want to make a separate topic on it . 

 

 

8 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

A central tenet of Thelema is, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

 

 

 

Was this for my 'elucidation '    or  for  others ?  

 

It it was for me  I already knew that  .  If it's for others , its insufficient information  ; What you have not explained though is  Crowley lifted it from the Golden Dawn without attribution    where it was previously  a document  ... like a 'knowledge lecture' .....    for the 'development of the powers of the soul ' . 

 

Also I think that I  and most people are well aware  of that central tenet and it has been a topic in a few threads here .... what is most noticeable that  certain disturbed Daobums  , often with psychopathic tendencies , and who nearly all ended up being banned here , interpret that central tenet as some sort of license to indulge in illegal , fascist ,  anti social ego selfishness .....  of course it means something entirely different  .  

 

 

[Cobie]

 

59 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

… everything i see when my eyes are open too.  …

 

I can be in my dark room, my mind, with my eyes open. It’s not about eyes being open or closed. It’s about where I put my awareness (inside or outside).

 

Quote

All physical objects, the table the books, the trees, the streets, the cars and airplanes and planets and galaxies.  

 

For me  the most important thing is to distinguish between what’s ‘inside’ (my internal world, my mind) and what’s ‘outside’ (the external world, reality).  The internal is generated by my mind; the external is real, not generated by my mind.

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:05 AM by Cobie

[BigSkyDiamond]

4 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I can be in my dark room, my mind, with my eyes open. It’s not about eyes being open or closed. It’s about where I put my awareness (inside or outside).

 

For me  the most important thing is to distinguish between what’s ‘inside’ (my internal world, my mind) and what’s ‘outside’ (the external world, reality).  External reality is real, not made up by my mind.

 

Those are all valid.  I bump up against those.  That is why I am always thirsty to hear how different paths reconcile and resolve this.  Thank you.

 

It's like a domino effect, when I change or update a belief say here or there, then other beliefs are affected and start toppling over too.  For internal harmony i seek to align them.

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:06 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

4 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

…  different paths … It's like a domino effect, when I change or update a belief say here or there, then other beliefs are affected and start toppling over too.  For internal harmony i seek to align them.

Yes. In my experience, integrating different systems leads to simplification.  Only the very core will be the same. 
 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

14 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Yes. In my experience, integrating different systems leads to simplification.  Only the very core will be the same. 

 

Yes that is a good point.  Mixing systems can cause problems.  for me anyway.  i may be overthinking things.

 

also there is viewing things from the level of my small "s" self, my physical human finite self and personality.  .

and then there is viewing things from the level of my big "S" Self, from the soul level, my infinite Self.

and navigating both perspectives with balance, order, and harmony.   

Edited Tuesday at 12:25 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

20 minutes ago, Nungali said:

What you have not explained though is 

 

thank you for the additional information, much appreciated.  People within a path always know more about the path and practices, and variations and nuance. We all benefit when there is context and background provided, and it is always helpful (in my view) to hear more.  This forum is a really good place for that.  Thank you for filling us in.

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:22 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

 

8 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

… Mixing systems can cause problems. …

 

Yes. 
 

Quote

… also there is viewing things from the level of my small "s" self, my physical human finite self and personality.  .

and then there is viewing things from the level of my big "S" self, from the soul level, my infinite Self.

 

Yes, totally, that’s my experience too.

 

Quote

and functioning at both levels with balance, order, and harmony.   

 

In my experience, I had to become less ambitious on both levels in order to be able to integrate.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:27 AM by Cobie

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

thank you for the additional information, much appreciated.  People within a path always know more about the path and practices, and variations and nuance. We all benefit when there is context and background provided, and it is always helpful (in my view) to hear more.  This forum is a really good place for that.  Thank you for filling us in.

 

 

 

 

 

ho ... arigato   !  

 

 

But  , this sort of insight does not come from just 'being within a path ' . Many people in the western esoteric traditions  haven't got a clue about that . It comes from a life time of studying  comparative religion and  cultural anthropology and specifically , initiations, rites of passage  and related systems   beyond the western tradition  and  the present time .  Plus the benefit of having some access to indigenous knowledge   and then comparative analysis  of key points and themes within all of this  .   

 

And sometimes , even people with eclectic study like that know more about  the reality or indeed validity  of a path than some people on it .... especially when we consider history and archaeology . 

 

   

 

   

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

And sometimes , even people with eclectic study like that know more about  the reality or indeed validity  of a path than some people on it .... especially when we consider history and archaeology .    

 

no matter how much "study" and "knowledge" and "information" a person thinks they may have collected, 

it does not and can not compare to the boots on the ground lived experience of someone who is actually practicing the path.  "study" is not the practice.  "history" is not the practice.  "archaeology" is not the practice.

Edited Tuesday at 08:55 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

40 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

i heartily disagree with the above.

no matter how much study and knowledge and information a person thinks they may have collected, 

it does not and can not compare to the boots on the ground lived experience of someone who is actually practicing the path.

 

because "study" is not the practice.  big difference. "history" is not the practice.  "archaeology" is not the practice.  it brings to mind the behavior of "mansplaining" which is the behavior of "condescendingly explains something to someone, in a way that assumes they lack knowledge or understanding, even if they are already knowledgeable about the topic."

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed , I meant to write  'as well as '   (  study and research it  ) ... my bad . 

 

It is like martial arts as well.  A really good (last ) teacher I had encouraged us not to just train but 'study'   - he emphasized it  -  " Study history of  this art , history of country , my culture ... you no understand if you don't , only see surface .'

 

So I did .   But not many of his pupils did , many haven't got a clue , they are doing this and that and don't know why  and they are right inside the path . 

 

From outside the path I would have got all the history and culture , but his  special teaching and insight and training   

 

BUT ... surely you must agree that with SOME people , lets say the  newbie or ignorant karateka  , whose head is full of crap and knows little  but thanks he does , ABOUT karate , that is , (not winning  tournaments - because they are also 'rigged' in the bullshit side of things   )  is painfully ignorant . 

 

I claim the sm is obvious in SOME followers of religion .....   people that are IN that certain path but appear to be false , practicing wrong, ... an outsider AND their brethren  might see this . 

 

of course the ignorant one will not . 

 

That ^ is a man explaining .... its not 'mansplaning '  ... I don't distinguish my comments to you in regard to any assumptions about you gender . 

 

 

. 

Edited Tuesday at 08:32 AM by Nungali

[BigSkyDiamond]

.

Edited Tuesday at 08:50 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

but if you only studied martial arts and read about martial arts and researched martial arts,

but never actually trained or practiced or DID any martial arts

then you most certainly would not be able to "know about the reality and indeed validity of the path" of martial arts

 

 

Of course you could find out about the reality of something    ; "Quing-pudo is an ancient Chinese karate "  the new impressed student of the 'cult' says .   Nah... its been researched and shown its a fake ... watch your wallet ! "

 

Validity ?  Could mean a lot , but for example, is a health path valid that ONLY eats paw paw ?  I never done it . But it near killed someone I know !   I don't need to do that to know how valid it is !  I saw it and then read up on why it happened .

 

I think what you mean is you cant TASTE the fruit unless you       do  taste it . 

 

You cant have the experience of being on the path unless you are on the path .   Some paths are wrong and mistaken , you can get good and bad experiences  , but yes, nothing substitutes the 'experience' of doing it yourself .. even if its a bad or detrimental experience . 

 

 

[steve]

11 hours ago, Cobie said:

To me that’s like being inside my own mind. 

 

In a way, we are always inside our own minds.

 

11 hours ago, Cobie said:

Teaching that thoughts are not real. 

 

I interpret it a bit differently.

I guess it depends on how we define real.

The experiences in the dark are extraordinarily vivid and compelling - sounds, visions, emotional reactivity, and yet there is nothing there but my own mind. Similar to dreaming. In the dream, there is no question about its reality, unless of course we are lucidly dreaming. For me it is more about the relationship between daily life experience and the mind.