Immortality through Philosophy

[Cadcam]

I've thought a great deal about the afterlife, Heaven, reincarnation, and immortality. 

 

I was wondering what everyone thought about these ideas? 

 

Do you think one needs the Philosophers Stone to be qualified as Immortal? Certainly there are other paths to Immortality. Do you think you can achieve Immortality without being recognized by Man?

[Maddie]

25 minutes ago, Cadcam said:

I've thought a great deal about the afterlife, Heaven, reincarnation, and immortality. 

 

I was wondering what everyone thought about these ideas? 

 

Do you think one needs the Philosophers Stone to be qualified as Immortal? Certainly there are other paths to Immortality. Do you think you can achieve Immortality without being recognized by Man?

 

What conclusion have you come to, if you have come to one? Do you believe in an afterlife or not? And what ever your position why do you hold the view you hold?

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Cadcam said:

I've thought a great deal about the afterlife, Heaven, reincarnation, and immortality. 

 

What did you conclude to ?

 

Define afterlife, define heaven.

Immortality of what? the body? the soul as defined in a Christian context? the awareness? something else?

[Maddie]

31 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

What did you conclude to ?

 

Define afterlife, define heaven.

Immortality of what? the body? the soul as defined in a Christian context? the awareness? something else?

 

This is something I ponder (probably too often). It seems like objectively there is no evidence of an afterlife but that seems sad lol. 

[snowymountains]

52 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

This is something I ponder (probably too often). It seems like objectively there is no evidence of an afterlife but that seems sad lol. 

 

If there were one, we'd probably procrastinate everything for "later"(TM) and we'd live like sloths😁

Edited January 13 by snowymountains

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

If there were one, we'd probably procrastinate everything for "later"(TM) and we'd live like sloths😁

 

Interestingly I saw something or read something that was saying anthropologists think the very earliest evidences of religion in Homo sapiens had to do with afterlife ceremonies. This seems very deeply ingrained into us as a species.

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Cadcam said:

I've thought a great deal about the afterlife, Heaven, reincarnation, and immortality. 

 

I was wondering what everyone thought about these ideas? 

 

I think 'the afterlife' is varied and complex and  full of all sorts of possibilities and such a simple and general term term does not do it justice  other than give a general reference to a  large set of concepts .

 

'heaven'  seems a necessary state  required for some adjustment  after death, but is not the permanent  state .  reincarnation seems possible , but it may be connected to genetic memory or other dynamics we understand little of . 

 

here is a question for you ; if you die and get reincarnated ..... could that be another  life you get born into after this one , into the past ?

 

Immortality may be a condition of 'spirit' , but certainly not of physicality ,  asit goes against the whole cycle of nature .... in which we find ourselves embedded .

 

 

Do you think one needs the Philosophers Stone to be qualified as Immortal?

 

No .  One can have the Philosophers Stone and die . It is used to imbue its energy into other things .  I believe  this has been confused ealry on with the 'Elixer of Life' ,   the confusion was added to by comparing similar ideas from other cultures into hermetics ... which  is what I am assuming you are referring to (taking ' Philosophers stone' literally ) .

 

Certainly there are other paths to Immortality. Do you think you can achieve Immortality without being recognized by Man?

 

Yes. Since immortality is non-physical .

 

Then again .... I might come back and haunt you guys .... would that be 'recognition' ?

 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

Interestingly I saw something or read something that was saying anthropologists think the very earliest evidences of religion in Homo sapiens had to do with afterlife ceremonies. This seems very deeply ingrained into us as a species.

 

Do you remember what was the form of afterlife discussed, a divine realm? spirits roaming Earth? reincarnations ?

 

It would be interesting to see what surviving long lived traditions said on this. Referring to religions older than Buddhism, Christianity, older than ancient religions, i.e. Egypt's religions but still preserved today. I'm not aware of any anthropological studies for a uniform belief on this, but I'm no anthropologist either.

 

Unfortunately, the Shamans, if they ever existed as a uniform culture, are gone so they can't tell us.

 

Castaneda has written about this in his books (a snoozefest really 😁), unfortunately I don't trust what he wrote to be genuine transfer of knowledge coming from an ancient tradition's teachings. 

Though it's interesting in that he claims the seers/shamans/sorcerers did something like a form of phowa which allegedly was known in Tibet, but knowledge around it has been lost, which is more akin to endarkment than any reasonably defined notion of enlightenment. He doesn't call it Phowa but to me it sounds like the lost Phowa technique.

But if anything, if someone went to such lengths to avoid death or at least avoid their souls not inhabiting a body, the only reasonable conclusion is that they were very scared of death and found no comfort in potential afterlife thoughts.

Again, that's per Castaneda, not per any credible source, his whole (hi)story is likely completely fabricated.

Edited January 13 by snowymountains

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

This is something I ponder (probably too often). It seems like objectively there is no evidence of an afterlife but that seems sad lol. 

 

yes, it can seem that way  and sometimes I feel like that . But if there isnt  an afterlife and this one life is all we get , that just makes it more precious, important and  wonderful ... dont waste you time guys !  It might be the only one you got .

 

And considering and meditating on that , one might even eventually be able to add  'ecstatic' to one's list of 'appreciations' .

[Nungali]

57 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Interestingly I saw something or read something that was saying anthropologists think the very earliest evidences of religion in Homo sapiens had to do with afterlife ceremonies. This seems very deeply ingrained into us as a species.

 

Its one of the first expressions of 'soul' * , an ability that no other species seems to exhibit   and makes us distinctive .

 

* in a  psychological / anthropological context , not a religious philosophical one .

[snowymountains]

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Its one of the first expressions of 'soul' * , an ability that no other species seems to exhibit   and makes us distinctive .

 

* in a  psychological / anthropological context , not a religious philosophical one .

 

The recently discovered Homo Nadeli also [correction] *possibly* had this, so possibly it goes beyond homo sapiens

 

"

In 2018, anthropologist Charles Egeland and colleagues echoed Val's sentiments, and stated that there is insufficient evidence to conclude that a hominid species had developed a concept of the afterlife so early in time. They said that the preservation of the Dinaledi individuals is similar to those of baboon carcasses which accumulate in caves, either by natural death of cave-dwelling baboons, or by a leopard dragging in carcasses.

"

 

Homo naledi - Wikipedia

Edited January 13 by snowymountains

[Nungali]

15 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Do you remember what was the form of afterlife discussed, a divine realm? spirits roaming Earth? reincarnations ?

 

It would be interesting to see what surviving long lived traditions said on this. Referring to religions older than Buddhism, Christianity, older than ancient religions, i.e. Egypt's religions but still preserved today. I'm not aware of any anthropological studies for a uniform belief on this, but I'm no anthropologist either.

 

I doubt there is uniform belief about it ... even within the Australian indigenous , but here is one story , very ancient ;

 

All the animals where sitting around the campfire talking ; wallaby asked ' When we die, do you think we will come back again ?' "Certainly" said possum, " I am sure of it . "  'Yes, I believe so . " said bandicoot .  " No you dont , one life and then die, that's it ." said quoll .  " Whaaat ?  ..... no  ..... rubbish !  " said the other animals .  " No, its true " said Quoll .  " Stop telling lies" said possum , I know because I asked the Moon Man and he said " Yes, you will come back, like I do. I go away and I am gone , but then I come back and am new again and grow  . "  " Thats a lie" said quoll .   " No it isnt, " said the other animals , they got angry with quoll and took burning sticks out the fire and poked him with them, burning him and driving him away ..... he still got the burn scars  on him .

 

 

Unfortunately, the Shamans, if they ever existed as a uniform culture, are gone so they can't tell us.

 

Castaneda has written about this in his books (a snoozefest really 😁), unfortunately I don't trust what he wrote to be genuine transfer of knowledge coming from an ancient tradition's teachings. 

Though it's interesting in that he claims the seers/shamans/sorcerers did something like a form of phowa which allegedly was known in Tibet, but knowledge around it has been lost, which is more akin to endarkment than any reasonably defined notion of enlightenment. He doesn't call it Phowa but to me it sound like the lost Phowa technique.

But if anything, if someone went to such lengths to avoid death or at least avoid their souls not inhabiting a body, the only reasonable conclusion is that they were very scared of death and found no comfort in potential afterlife thoughts.

Again, that's per Castaneda, not per any credible source, his whole (hi)story is likely completely fabricated.

 

[snowymountains]

7 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Interesting, thanks for sharing. The aborigines have preserved a true wealth of a culture. I hope when I retire to be in good health for a long trip to visit them and see their customs.]

 

Their concept of dreamtime is also very interesting.

Edited January 13 by snowymountains

[Nungali]

7 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

The recently discovered Homo Nadeli also had this apparently, so it goes beyond homo sapiens

 

"

In 2018, anthropologist Charles Egeland and colleagues echoed Val's sentiments, and stated that there is insufficient evidence to conclude that a hominid species had developed a concept of the afterlife so early in time. They said that the preservation of the Dinaledi individuals is similar to those of baboon carcasses which accumulate in caves, either by natural death of cave-dwelling baboons, or by a leopard dragging in carcasses.

"

 

Homo naledi - Wikipedia

 

Thats confusing ;  you stated Homo Nedeli had 'this'  ( 'religious afterlife ceremonies' )  and then cited a quote that  seems to refute it .

 

What finds or supporting evidence to you base you first statement on  that they 'also had this apparently '  ?

 

 

[snowymountains]

Just now, Nungali said:

 

 

Mea culpa and well spotted, I corrected the statement above to possibly

[Nungali]

7 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Interesting, thanks for sharing. The aborigines have preserved a true wealth of a culture. I hope when I retire to be in good health for a long trip to visit them and see their customs.]

 

You better be quick !  One of the things that  gives their ancient culture such worth , from an anthropological perspective , is that their very ancient culture and consciousness  was  preserved from outside interference into the most recent of times  , rarely has modern man had the ancients so close to his own time and observations .

 

Their concept of dreamtime is also very interesting.

 

Ughhh !  One of the worst words ever used to describe  an incredibly in depth and spiritually potent  concept .  However , many modern definitions of the word address this  and introduce us to SOME of the complexities behind it .

 

[Nungali]

5 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Mea culpa and well spotted, I corrected the statement above to possibly

 

Okay .... so it possibly does NOT go beyond Homo Sapiens   (and I note ,  that some  term Neanderthals  as  ' Homo Sapiens neanderthalensis ' which includes it in Homo sapiens , while others classify them as ' Homo neandertalensis '  .... but let's not go there  ....    but it does include them and their traits under Homo sapiens  ) 

[snowymountains]

Just now, Nungali said:

 

Okay .... so it possibly does NOT go beyond Homo Sapiens   (and I note ,  that some  term Neanderthals  as  ' Homo Sapiens neanderthalensis ' which includes it in Homo sapiens , while others classify them as ' Homo neandertalensis '  .... but let's not go there  ....    but it does include them and their traits under Homo sapiens  ) 

 

of course, with only two outcomes and a probability neither 0 or 1 🙂

[Cadcam]

I was told a story of surviving being stranded in a winter storm, and it caused me to reflect on how Man has survived the tests of Nature to become what we have become. It's so amazing to me, and I hope that there is an afterlife for us, and that part of that experience is to hear the full story of Man.

[Cadcam]

If there is an afterlife, then we would have to be connected somehow to it already, for otherwise, we are merely trapped in our bodies experiencing life individually, and not in some way (other than inhabiting shared space), collectively.

 

If the afterlife is in us individually, then we would probably lose it should we be burned to ash and not buried.

 

If we are connected somehow on some field of energy, then we could inhabit a shared soul network, which is perhaps something like a dream state.  The only thing to consider there is: how much control of the dream state do we have, and are these states desirable? Certainly we would want a good Heaven to experience eternally? Is it based on our current state of thoughts and deeds?

 

How would we then reincarnate? Do we somehow enter a body of a living person and enter their sperm or egg and get born again? If this is how it happens, then why aren't I aware of my past life? And if I am not aware, does it even matter if it's true? 

 

The only way to ensure control over one's knowledge and self is to be practiced at knowledge of self and life, and not be at the mercy of uncertainty and desires, and in this situation, one could then defend the arts of knowledge and knowing-commanding ones will to do. In this case, obtaining the philosophers stone, confessing sin and making atonement, and fixing one's karma would be a highly recommended path.

[Cadcam]

In my journey of reflection, I find what sticks most in my memory are my Sins, or the Sins others have committed to me. Good times and bad are distant; moments of suffering and happiness are just temporary shadows, what remains is when I broke different types of law.  And so, I must conclude that the life of Man, as organized by the Creators, is to be lawful and righteous.

[thelerner]

3 hours ago, Cadcam said:

In my journey of reflection, I find what sticks most in my memory are my Sins, or the Sins others have committed to me. Good times and bad are distant; moments of suffering and happiness are just temporary shadows, what remains is when I broke different types of law.  And so, I must conclude that the life of Man, as organized by the Creators, is to be lawful and righteous.

As I get older I tend to think The only sin is hurting others unnecessarily.  And it's almost always unnecessary **.  The rest is self hurt or cultural taboos, imo.  

 

 

**Could be expanded to not hurting society, but society is still people.  Might add not hurting the environment. 

[Maddie]

4 hours ago, Cadcam said:

 for otherwise, we are merely trapped in our bodies experiencing life individually

 

Often the question says a lot about the perspective that we bring to that question. 

 

To be "trapped" in our bodies assumes that we are really a ghost driving around a skeleton and meat suit. 

 

Another way of looking at it though is that we ARE our bodies.

 

If one thinks about this for just a bit it has a huge impact on perspective. 

[snowymountains]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

Often the question says a lot about the perspective that we bring to that question. 

 

To be "trapped" in our bodies assumes that we are really a ghost driving around a skeleton and meat suit. 

 

Another way of looking at it though is that we ARE our bodies.

 

If one thinks about this for just a bit it has a huge impact on perspective. 

 

The body-mind relationship is very interesting.

Without body of course we'd have no sensations.

 

An interesting thing that I haven't quite understood in all its depths is that Jung instead of considering the psyche embedded in the body, he considered the body embedded in the psyche. So he didn't see it exactly from a reductionist point of view, at least not the type of reductionist thinking that we often have.

This has very interesting implications that I don't fully understand and tbh I speculate even he didn't fully understand either as his work on his psychoid archetype was not completed, even though this is a topic he did work together with Wolfgang Pauli.

 

Religious philosophies may have interesting points of course, e.g. Buddhist psychology.

 

But I don't think we have a full understanding of what is happening, neuroscience will one day tell us, till then it's all speculation.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

The body-mind relationship is very interesting.

Without body of course we'd have no sensations.

 

An interesting thing that I haven't quite understood in all its depths is that Jung instead of considering the psyche embedded in the body, he considered the body embedded in the psyche. So he didn't see it exactly from a reductionist point of view, at least not the type of reductionist thinking that we often have.

This has very interesting implications that I don't fully understand and tbh I speculate even he didn't fully understand either as his work on his psychoid archetype was not completed, even though this is a topic he did work together with Wolfgang Pauli.

 

Religious philosophies may have interesting points of course, e.g. Buddhist psychology.

 

But I don't think we have a full understanding of what is happening, neuroscience will one day tell us, till then it's all speculation.

 

TCM does not see the mind and the body as separate things. The heart is said to house the mind and that is how it is possible to treat the mind with acupuncture. Usually when treating the mind in TCM we treat the heart and the liver, and this affects the mind. 

  This is also how it could be explained that exercising is good for our mood as well as our body.