Everything is perfect?

[old3bob]

There is the saying heard now and then that, "everything is perfect"....

 

It seems that for the non-evolutionary Supreme Being (or we could also say the Great Tao or pure Spirit) which is beyond good and evil, beyond change and time, decay or corruption,  karma, life and death, etc. that everything could be said to be perfect.  As for Buddhism it does not say that except perhaps in a way by saying that all are Buddhas but all have not realized that -yet.  Further, one might hear that regardless of or including the opposite of all that was mentioned in the first sentence above that everything is still perfect.  So I'd  say this is something that the human mind can not wrap itself around or validly espouse...since it would not apply to same.  Btw. could such a saying as, "everything is perfect" be taken as being counterproductive to Dharma since it would mean that anti-Dharma is also perfect?  Anyway it seems to me that this saying has to be put on the shelf until one is in such realization/actualization 24/7, thus beyond any "coming or going" or potential fall, otherwise it comes across as another "new age" type concept of wishful thinking,  how about to you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by old3bob

[stirling]

Rather than imagining that "perfect" indicates some sort of imagined ideal set of conditions, I have come to interpret this type statement as meaning that things could not be otherwise and are thus exactly as they should be. 

 

Buddhism would argue that what is happening in this moment is the result of the causes and conditions arising as we experience it. The problem, or "imperfection" in this moment is therefore supplied by US as an attachment to an idea of how we imagine this moment should be in our estimation, or as an aversion to how this moment actually is.

[old3bob]

Yea I get the abstraction drift, but still the first Noble Truth in Buddhism speaks to me of suffering not so much as just an abstraction but also as a fact.

 

As for "Buddha nature" which some schools of Buddhism except (while some don't) suffering as a fact has been overcome.  and if something is overcome then before such an over-coming everything is not perfect.

Edited September 13, 2023 by old3bob

[stirling]

47 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Yea I get the abstraction drift, but still the first Noble Truth in Buddhism speaks to me of suffering not so much as just an abstraction but also as a fact.

 

Suffering (or struggle as I have recently read it re-translated) IS a relative truth, but not an absolute truth. The point of the 4 Noble Truths is that there is a path OUT of suffering. 

 

47 minutes ago, old3bob said:

As for "Buddha nature" which some schools of Buddhism except (while some don't) suffering as a fact has been overcome and if something is overcome then before such an over-coming everything is not perfect.

 

Right, though I would argue that the real issue is that it isn't UNDERSTOOD to be perfect. Seeing suffering means that ones perspective is distorted by the lens of delusion. When the reality of things is seen, it is realized that they simply are as they are. 

[old3bob]

12 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Suffering (or struggle as I have recently read it re-translated) IS a relative truth, but not an absolute truth. The point of the 4 Noble Truths is that there is a path OUT of suffering. 

 

 

Right, though I would argue that the real issue is that it isn't UNDERSTOOD to be perfect. Seeing suffering means that ones perspective is distorted by the lens of delusion. When the reality of things is seen, it is realized that they simply are as they are. 

 

logically if relative truth is not included with absolute truth then everything can not be perfect...

btw the same applies to a distorted lens as you say.  

 

Also if we keep digging pits into conundrums we will fall into them...yet who doesn't want doubt erased?

Edited September 13, 2023 by old3bob

[stirling]

21 minutes ago, old3bob said:

logically if relative truth is not included with absolute truth then everything can not be perfect...

btw the same applies to a distorted lens as you say. 

 

Definitely true! Nicely put. In the Heart Sutra:

 

Quote

Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. Form itself is emptiness, emptiness itself form. Sensations, perceptions, formations, and consciousness are also like this. Shariputra, all dharmas are marked by emptiness；they neither arise nor cease, are neither defiled nor pure, neither increase nor decrease. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

So the phenomenal world is entirely comprised of emptiness and yet still maintains its appearance of form, which exists as a subset of its absolute nature. We witness the procession of changing phenomena in the world, and yet all of these seemingly separate objects and events are mentally "cut" from the fabric of emptiness, having no real nature of their own. It is seeing things from two different perspectives, the relative and the absolute. They appear the same, and yet, once seen, it is possible to see the empty nature of reality at any time underneath the illusion of relative separateness.

 

21 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Also if we keep digging pits into conundrums we will fall into them...yet who doesn't want doubt erased?

 

The pits are our tireless seeking and mental argument over how things are. The way out of the pits is to seek experiential, non-conceptual knowledge of the universe. I think we all want our doubts erased for sure. I believe it is easier than you'd imagine, but requires a receptive, kind, and genuine approach. 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Definitely true! Nicely put. In the Heart Sutra:

 

So the phenomenal world is entirely comprised of emptiness and yet still maintains its appearance of form, which exists as a subset of its absolute nature. We witness the procession of changing phenomena in the world, and yet all of these seemingly separate objects and events are mentally "cut" from the fabric of emptiness, having no real nature of their own. It is seeing things from two different perspectives, the relative and the absolute. They appear the same, and yet, once seen, it is possible to see the empty nature of reality at any time underneath the illusion of relative separateness.

 

The pits are our tireless seeking and mental argument over how things are. The way out of the pits is to seek experiential, non-conceptual knowledge of the universe. I think we all want our doubts erased for sure. I believe it is easier than you'd imagine, but requires a receptive, kind, and genuine approach. 

 

I'm not into all the verbal and wordy gymnastics about form, emptiness, delusion or illusion per Buddhism...The Self to me per the Upanishads is so much clearer and straight forward in comparison!  Btw, I'd say there is no disconnect or lack of connection/emantation from the so called absolute to the so called relative, thus there is no real illusion to harp about.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

@old3bob,

 

I'm one of those optimistic idealists who view reality as "perfect".  I don't think it's too complicated to explain my point of view in case it's helpful.

 

Many-worlds-theory

 

1)  This is not the only existence.  There are infinitly many existences.  Each opportunty for choice spawns all the possible outcomes simultanteously.  

 

2)  If so, there is an existence where each and every choice has produced the absolute perfect outcome. 

 

3)  If so, there is an existence where each and every choice has produced the absolute the imperfect outcome.

 

4)  If so, there are infinite other extistences where the choices produce some combination of perfect and imperfect outcomes.

 

Therefore, it is highly unlikely that this specific existence is either #2 or #3.  It is neither absolutley perfect, nor absolutley imperfect.  However there is a version of me that exists in the perfect world, and there is a version of me that exists in the imperfect world.  There are infinite versions of me, and I am experiencing all of those possibilities even if I am only aware of this one, in the here-and-now.

 

The fault as an asset, perfection as a liability

 

1)  If I am confident that the here-and-now is neither completely perfect nor completely imperfect this is an opportunity.  when the imperfect outcome is analyzed and is avoided in the future, the imperfect choice becomes an asset. 

 

2)  If perfection is lifted up as the ideal, then it becomes much more difficult to make progressive incremental positive changes, per the true and consistent axiom:  "the perfect is the enemy of the good." 

 

3)  Also, if there were only perfect outcomes, and nothing to improve, nothing to learn, nothing to explore, this perfection would never be appreciated. 

 

4)  And.  Perfect outcomes are subjective.  what is considered perfect from my perspective may not be perfect for anyone else.  In order for a perfect world to exist each and every person would need to have exactly the same values, principles, priorities, opinions, affinties, and aversions.  Everyone would be exactly the same.  I don't know anyone who envisions this as a perfect world scenario.  Do you?  Can you?

 

Therefore, perfection in this context is a liability.  Perfection isn't perfect, it's not actually desireable.  And the faults, are an asset if individuals have the capability to learn from them and support those who are suffering as a result of the inherent imperfection.  Lacking this imperfection would not be good, and certainly not perfect.

 

Time is not flowing; everything is 'Now'.

 

1) The fundemental unit of time is the "moment".  Each and every moment is defined by significant events before and after it.  

 

2 ) If time is eternal, each and every event loses its significance because the number of events is absolutely infinite.

 

3)  Lacking any significant events, all moments are combined into 1 moment.  Time is not flowing from an eternal perspective.

 

Therefore all choices, all opportunities, all outcomes, in any possible world are concurrent.  If there is a problem, and it has a solution, even if the solution takes 1,000,000,000,000 years to be acheived, none of that matters from an eternal perspective.  The problem exists, and it is solved concurrently.

 

All possible worlds are united.

 

1)  Each existence described in the first section is defined by significant differences between them.

 

2)  If there are infinite existences, then the differences are infinitely insignficant.

 

3)  All the possible worlds are united in the same way that each and every moment is united.  There are not distinctions or differences from the infinite perspective.

 

Therefore the absolutely perfect world, co-exists with the absolutely imperfect world, along with all the other possiblities in the spectrum of perfect-to-imperfect. 

 

This, to me, defines perfection.  

 

1) diversity

 

2) opportunity to improve

 

3) confidence that if I escape the limitations of the here-and-now, I ill merge ith all those other infinite versions of me.  And there are eternal, concurrent perfection, imperfection, diversity, opportunity, problems, and solutions to explore.  Or enjoy concurrently.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

yet who doesn't want doubt erased?

 

~raises hand~ I don't, I don't.  Certainty is the end of exploration, imagination, and creativity.  Certainty is the end of learning.

[old3bob]

12 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

~raises hand~ I don't, I don't.  Certainty is the end of exploration, imagination, and creativity.  Certainty is the end of learning.

 

one could ask what does Lord Jesus or a Christ soul or a high soul like Enoch with God have doubts about? Also and for instance Jesus is said to have said, "Behold I make all things new.." thus there is no lack of or ending of creativity at all!

Edited September 13, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

16 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

one could ask what does Lord Jesus or a Christ soul or a high soul like Enoch with God have doubts about? Also and for instance Jesus is said to have said, "Behold I make all things new.." thus there is no lack of or ending of creativity at all!

 

I don't know about any of them, I can only speak for myself.  For me, doubt, is a gate, a portal, that I use to open my mind to all that could-be.  It's similar to proverbs, the famous quote about the beginning of wisdom.  Doubt is a portal to fear.  And fear can be kind of fun.  So I'm not giving up my doubt, I love it.

 

[Nungali]

Everything is perfect ? 

 

two words : 

 

 

' carpet bombing '

 

 

Fear is kinda fun .... for a rich westerner living in security .

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I don't know about any of them, I can only speak for myself.  For me, doubt, is a gate, a portal, that I use to open my mind to all that could-be.  It's similar to proverbs, the famous quote about the beginning of wisdom.  Doubt is a portal to fear.  And fear can be kind of fun.  So I'm not giving up my doubt, I love it.

 

 

I'd say fear as a natural survival mechanism is one thing and normal so to speak, while fear as a crippling divisive "mind killer" (as well pointed to in various teachings) is another; and when such fear and doubt are overcome then unity, strength and a knowing faith with experience takes it place,  aka an indomitable will driven by the purity of wisdom.  To paraphrase a saying, "that which he opens can not be closed and that which he closes can not be opened" .  Btw. the saying "Fear Not" is also found in a great many teachings...

Edited September 13, 2023 by old3bob

[Nungali]

Like :  'Fear is failure and the forerunner of failure ' .

[Daniel]

47 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

I'd say fear as a natural survival mechanism is one thing and normal so to speak, while fear as a crippling divisive "mind killer" (as well pointed to in various teachings) is another; and when such fear and doubt are overcome then unity, strength and a knowing faith with experience takes it place,  aka an indomitable will driven by the purity of wisdom.  To paraphrase a saying, "that which he opens can not be closed and that which he closes can not be opened" .  Btw. the saying "Fear Not" is also found in a great many teachings...

 

Just skipping the word fear and using "exciting" or even "spooky", works.  But would exciting or spooky exist without doubt? 

[stirling]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

I'm not into all the verbal and wordy gymnastics about form, emptiness, delusion or illusion per Buddhism...The Self to me per the Upanishads is so much clearer and straight forward in comparison! 

 

Honestly, I always feel like I am trying to leave out all of the Buddhist terminology to make things easier to parse. Maybe not.

 

I'm fine with "Self" where it pertains to the undivided everything that is experienced.  Ultimately it is the same, though I think there are gradations to the depth of understanding. The Buddhist stuff is just more specific, which I find may or may not be necessary depending on who is listening. 

 

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

Btw, I'd say there is no disconnect or lack of connection/emantation from the so called absolute to the so called relative, thus there is no real illusion to harp about.

 

It's all Absolute... all Brahman, really. The mistake is ours. If there is no illusion one should be able to see Brahman experientially (enlightenment) as a quality of the phenomenal world in any moment, right? 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Just skipping the word fear and using "exciting" or even "spooky", works.  But would exciting or spooky exist without doubt? 

 

I don't know...exciting or spooky are sensations of the senses and may or may not need an element of or degree of fear to be felt.  There are a lot thrill seekers out there, some playing with deathly risk or potential to somehow feel alive...anyway well calculated risk is one thing, over the top bravado is another that sometimes does not end well...

Edited September 14, 2023 by old3bob

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Honestly, I always feel like I am trying to leave out all of the Buddhist terminology to make things easier to parse. Maybe not.

 

I'm fine with "Self" where it pertains to the undivided everything that is experienced.  Ultimately it is the same, though I think there are gradations to the depth of understanding. The Buddhist stuff is just more specific, which I find may or may not be necessary depending on who is listening. 

 

 

It's all Absolute... all Brahman, really. The mistake is ours. If there is no illusion one should be able to see Brahman experientially (enlightenment) as a quality of the phenomenal world in any moment, right? 

 

well there is a looking in where every thing disappears, and a looking out where every thing appears,  don't know about both at the same time....

[Daniel]

5 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

I don't know...exciting or spooky are sensations of the senses and may or may not need an element of or degree of fear to be felt.  There are a lot thrill seekers out there, some playing with deathly risk or potential to somehow feel alive...anyway well calculated risk is one thing, over the top bravado is another that sometimes does not end well...

 

Of course, of course.  Not talking about anything over the top.

 

If I'm walking through the woods at night, and I have no doubt, is it exciting?  Is it spooky?

 

I don't see how it can be either.  I know exactly what's going to happen.

[Geof Nanto]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

Certainty is the end of exploration, imagination, and creativity.  Certainty is the end of learning.

 

From Carl Jung:

 

"There is no place where those striving for consciousness could find absolute safety. Doubt and insecurity are indispensable components of a complete life. Only those who can lose this life can really gain it. A ‘complete’ life does not consist of a theoretical completeness, but the fact that one accepts without reservation the particular fatal tissue in which one finds oneself embedded, and that one tries to make sense of it or to create a cosmos from the chaotic mess into which one is born. If one lives properly and completely, time and time again one will be confronted with situations of which one will say, ‘This is too much, I cannot bear it anymore.’ Then the question must be answered: ‘Can one really not bear it?’”  

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

Of course, of course.  Not talking about anything over the top.

 

If I'm walking through the woods at night, and I have no doubt, is it exciting?  Is it spooky?

 

I don't see how it can be either.  I know exactly what's going to happen.

 

are the woods you are talking about in Grizzly bear habitat, I wouldn't think so...those bears hunt and eat humans if it suits them. (btw. they are pretty darn smart and extremely strong!)   I've seen them up close in a protected enclosure and it hard to believe how physically powerful they are!

[Daniel]

28 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

are the woods you are talking about in Grizzly bear habitat, I wouldn't think so...those bears hunt and eat humans if it suits them. (btw. they are pretty darn smart and extremely strong!)   I've seen them up close in a protected enclosure and it hard to believe how physically powerful they are!

 

no not in grizzly country, not in alaska.  just a lovely night, clear sky, the stars are out.  quarter moon.  quarter mile to home.  I wonder what's just beyond my view?  Can I hear anything other than my breath and the pads of my feet?  what if this, what if that?  heart is beating, I quicken my pace, and I'm home in seconds flat.

[RobB]

Perhaps it is 'perfect' as in 'as it should be'. Everything is as it should be. Things might not be pleasant or enjoyable but they might be precisely in line with how the Universe (or your Universe) should be.

[old3bob]

11 minutes ago, RobB said:

Perhaps it is 'perfect' as in 'as it should be'. Everything is as it should be. Things might not be pleasant or enjoyable but they might be precisely in line with how the Universe (or your Universe) should be.

 

Indeed, karma is perfect or else we would all be s.o.l.,  yet even karma passes away so to speak.

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, RobB said:

Perhaps it is 'perfect' as in 'as it should be'. Everything is as it should be. Things might not be pleasant or enjoyable but they might be precisely in line with how the Universe (or your Universe) should be.

 

That's the perspective taken by Zen and those Buddhist schools which maintain that the 'Pure land' is everywhere around us, if only we could see it.

 

I tend to agree.