deleted

[Nungali]

On 9/8/2023 at 9:08 AM, Cobie said:

In this thread you can post and then delete it. Delete it and forget about it. 

 

 

 

and then come back and undelete it and give instructions about deleting posts .

[Nungali]

34 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, we have to get use to this five-year old kid.

 

5 years old ???    But he is learning Chinese .

 

Wait .... is Chinese his first language ?  That explains it ! 

[Daniel]

44 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, we have to get use to this five-year old kid.

 

Please.  That's not nice.  Not as bad as 'word-salad' but, it's close.

[ChiDragon]

7 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Please.  That's not nice.  Not as bad as 'word-salad' but, it's close.

Sorry, I am very good friend with Cobie. I know it won't offend her.

Edited September 9, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Daniel]

39 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

FYI To help you to get start it.
"一" is Tao.
得一 means one who has Tao.

 

Specifically, I'm looking at 昔之, and that indicates that seems to indicate that what follows is a beginning, and is describing "becoming" not "unbecoming".  A sort of evolution, not devolution.

 

If so:

 

"物生 from 有 ，有生  from 无" makes good sense and is logical from context and flow.  (becoming / evolution)

 

"物生 into 有 ，有生 into 无" doesn not make good sense and is not logical from context and flow. (unbecoming / devolution)

 

[Daniel]

Just now, ChiDragon said:

Sorry, I am very good friend with Cobie. I know it won't defend her.

 

OK.

[Daniel]

.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Specifically, I'm looking at 昔之, and that indicates that seems to indicate that what follows is a beginning, and is describing "becoming" not "unbecoming".  A sort of evolution, not devolution.

 

If so:

 

"物生 from 有 ，有生  from 无" makes good sense and is logical from context and flow.  (becoming / evolution)

 

"物生 into 有 ，有生 into 无" doesn not make good sense and is not logical from context and flow. (unbecoming / devolution)

 

Don't you think it would be more appropriate if we discuss this in the Tao Te Ching section?

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

Don't you think it would be more appropriate if we discuss this in the Tao Te Ching section?

 

Yes, of course.  Just a preview of my thoughts, I'd like to finish the chapter to see where it's going. 

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Yes, of course.  Just a preview of my thoughts, I'd like to finish the chapter to see where it's going. 

Would you like to continue here or go there?

Edited September 9, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

7 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Specifically, I'm looking at 昔之, and that indicates that seems to indicate that what follows is a beginning, and is describing "becoming" not "unbecoming".  A sort of evolution, not devolution.

 

FYI
昔之: in the past; after; since
昔之得一者: After those who obtained Tao
This is implying one who had learned and follows the principles of Tao.

[Daniel]

29 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Would you like to continue here or go there?

 

There.  And thank you.  I'll do a little copying and pasting to move the comments over there.

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

… five-year old kid.

 

Thank you.   含德之厚，比於赤子。

 

~~~

han2 de2 zhi1 hou4 , bi3 yu2 chi4 zi3 
He who has in himself abundantly the attributes (of the Dao) is like an infant.

(Ch. 55)

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

5 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Thank you.   含德之厚，比於赤子。

~~~

han2 de2 zhi1 hou4 , bi3 yu2 chi4 zi3 
He who has in himself abundantly the attributes (of the Dao) is like an infant.

 

Maybe I can be like you... when I grow-up someday.    Errr.  Grow-down?   

[Cobie]

 

On 10/09/2023 at 10:55 PM, kakapo said:

… Anil Seth – Neuroscientist ….

 

Imo he is a cruel bastard, as he uses info gathered by abusing animals. 
 

“… little has been known about what happens in the brain immediately after the heart stops beating. To address this, Borjigin's team induced heart attacks in anaesthetised rats …”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/15/near-death-experience-brain-last-hurrah 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Cobie

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Thank you.   含德之厚，比於赤子。

 

~~~

han2 de2 zhi1 hou4 , bi3 yu2 chi4 zi3 
He who has in himself abundantly the attributes (of the Dao) is like an infant.

(Ch. 55)

 

 

Ahhh the delights of being 5 !

 

I have a new friend  that age ...  her father lives OS and she only sees him every few years   so she has sorta latched onto me. She turned up here yesterday dressed as a mermaid .     

 

It is a delight to spend time with her  and experience those  'abundant attributes of Dao ' . 

 

-  We went to feed the fish in the pond , I noticed I had a belly up floater in there .... Oh-o !

 

her :  " What wrong with the fish ?"

 

" I think it died . "

 

" Oh ."

 

" Poor fish ."

 

 " Yeah ..... poor fish     "

 

" We could  give him a little ceremony and thank him and bury him and put a flower on top ."

 

her;  "  yeah      ....."  but then she sparks up ....  "   Or ........ we could eat him !  " 

 

 

[Daniel]

@Cobie,

 

Can you help me, or give me a hint, how to create a quote from one thread and then copy it to another thread?

 

I've tried to figure this out, but I can't seem to do it.  If I click reply and then copy the quote from the text-editor in this thread, then go to another thread, and go to the text editor, when I copy it, it doesn't seem to copy properly.

 

 

[Cobie]

.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

37 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@Daniel On the post(s) that I want to reply to, I click the ‘+’ button called ‘Quote’. Then I go to the thread I want to post my reply. On the bottom right corner it then show there a pop-up saying how many posts I quoted. I click on the pop-up and the quotes arrive in the new draft post, which you then post same as always. 
 

 

 

Many thanks!  The plus button.  Got it!

[Cobie]

.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

@Daniel This bit baffles me. I'd like to hear your interpretation of it, if you like. 

 

OK.  I just finished watching the video.  I thought it would be good to see and hear the presentation in order to better get the speaker's intended message.

 

I think, this closing remark is intended to give a person relief and end on a hopeful optimstic positive but also inquisitive tone.  Emotions were not discussed, just the differences between the inner-experience and objective reality, and how the inner experience can be fooled and impaired.  So, I think it's natural to be baffled by this last comment.  I think that was intentional. It invites further inquiry and deep thinking on the topic, and fits with the overall theme which is questioning perception.  Questioning is the theme, so the presentation ends provocatively.

 

"when the end of consciousness comes, there’s nothing to be afraid of. Nothing at all."

 

My gut response is:  it's true, but is that 'good'?  Most people would probably say 'yes', 'fear' is 'bad'.  I vote 'no'.  'Fear' is not bad. 

 

All emotions are complicated, and I think if Anil and I were to meet up in a tea/coffee-shop somewhere it would not take long for us to agree that 'fear' is not bad except for certain circumstances.  And then, we could discuss different circumstances and eventually, after some time is invested, produce a list of qualities which more or less determine when 'fear' is good and when 'fear' is bad.  Then, finally, we could discuss different circumstances which can be described as 'the end of concsiousness'.  Once Anil and I have reached this point in the discussion, I don't think it would take very long to agree that the 'fear of the end of consciousness' is certainly useful although moderating that 'fear' is important.

 

Anil spent some time talking about anasthesia as a model for 'the end of conscousness', and it's true a person doesn't need to be afraid of anasthesia to the point of avoiding surgery or enduring the pain and suffering of going without it.  But it would be foolish to go for major surgery and not consider the possibility that they will never wake up again.  My dad will be having back surgery, it would be foolish not to have his affairs in order to be sure my mom has access to all the financial accounts if something horrible happens.  (they're old fashioned, 1950s american mindset of gender roles) . 

 

All of the kids are notified of the date of surgery, we all make contact immediately before, not so much for him, he knows how we feel.  It's for us.  Just as he is making sure my mom has what she will need, he lets us kids know what's happening so that we will not be troubled, God-forbid, if something goes wrong, and he never wakes up, and we did not have the opportunity to express ourselves one last time before he dies.  But it's not for him, it's not because he is afraid of what will happen to him.  If it's the end of consciousness, he won't know we're suffering, he won't care about us, everything that is 'him' ceases to exist from his perspective. 

 

Among other things, the 'fear' inspires preparation and that's a good thing.  If there was no 'fear', then the kids wouldn't get notified, the financial affairs would not be put in order.  At this point in the conversation, Anil and I would probably start to argue.  He would say, "that's not fear, that's not what I was talking about."  And I would argue, "I know, but, it's a version of fear, it's healthy-fear."  And then it becomes semantics.  Hopefully neither of us will lose patience, and eventually we will return the point of agreement where we previously agreed, it's circumstantial and conclude there is healthy-fear, and unhealthy-fear.

 

"when the end of consciousness comes, there’s nothing to be afraid of. Nothing at all."

 

Having said all of this, maybe you're wondering why I originally said this ^^ is true?  If there is healthy-fear of 'the end of consciousness', then how could it be true "there's nothing to be afraid of, nothing at all"?  It's because of the time-bound condition at the beginning.  "...when the end of concsiousness comes ..."  there is literally nothing.  Nothing at all.  No fear, no joy, no pain, no pleasure, no hope, no dissapointment, nothing at all.  So, it's true.  But is that 'good'?  I would argue, its not 'good'.  It's not 'bad' either.  It's null.  It's what Anil described at the beginning of the talk, it's like being under full anasthesia. Lights out, you're dead.  ( assuming this is actually what happens, of course )

 

When IF this has happened, after it has happened, when IF the end of consciousness comes... it's true!  There is nothing to be afraid of.  Nothing at all.  Because, nothing is all there is for you.  NULL.  The empty-set.  A perfect vaccuum.  Not even 'zero'.  Less than 'zero'.  Always and forever 'less'.  Nullification, the action of nullifying.

 

From a religious, spiritual, inter-personal, self-cultivation, perspective it is remarkably useful to understand and not be afraid of nullification in an unhealthy manner.  ( not to be afraid in an unhealthy manner ) Almost all paths incorporate it (self-nullification) into their practice, for good reason.  And that's why so many encourage it, and want to 'turn-people-on" to this idea of embracing 'nothingness' and becoming 'nothingness'.  But, it's not perfect.  There are risks.  Some people will get lost.  And some people who empty themself are not prepared for what is drawn into that void.  Those with unresolved trauma in their life story, attempting this solo, lacking a good teacher or community, seem to be the most at risk for this.  

 

So, it shouldn't be feared, but respected.  That's one way of distinguishing between healthy and unheathy fear.

 

So that's my interpretation of what Anil said.  He's actually intending to discourage unhealthy-fear prior to the loss of consciousness which is good, 100% good.  And while it's literally true what he said about after 'the end of consciousness', it's not literally 'good' to abandon all fear of it.  It IS good and useful for many to experiement with self-nullification, and that's why so many preach-it.  But that's not literally 'the end of consciousness', it's just a hiatus.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

 

 

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

… I think, this closing remark is intended to give a person relief and end on a hopeful optimstic positive …

 

Agreed.

 

Quote

… Emotions were not discussed, just the differences between the inner-experience and objective reality, and how the inner experience can be fooled and impaired.  So, I think it's natural to be baffled by this last comment. 

 

Exactly, it’s totally unsubstantiated. 

 

Quote

…  there is healthy-fear, and unhealthy-fear. …

 

I totally agree. We need all of our emotions; it’s about using them in a constructive way. 

 

Quote

… When IF this has happened, after it has happened, when IF the end of consciousness comes... it's true!  There is nothing to be afraid of.  Nothing at all.  …

 

Exactly, that’s what baffled me, he left out the “IF”.  Without the “IF” he imo crosses over into ‘feel good chat’/religion/counselling/whatever you call it but it’s not science.

 

Thanks for your reply.  Best of luck to your dad. 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Cobie

[Michael Sternbach]

19 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@Daniel your ‘infinity’ posts reminded me of Ch. 25: 

There is a form that developed from primordial chaos 
That was born before heaven and earth. 
Silent and still, it stands on its own and does not change. 
... 

It can be regarded as the mother of all under heaven. 
Not yet knowing its name, 
We refer to it as the Dao. 
Were I forced to give it a name, I'd call it the Great. 

The "Great" means "overflowing"; 
"Overflowing" means "going far"; 
"Going far" means "to return." 

Heaven is great; the earth is great; the Way is great; and the king too is great. 
In this realm there are four greats, and the king counts as one of them. 

Humanity takes as its model the earth; 
The earth takes as its model heaven; 
Heaven takes as its model the Way; 
And the Way takes as its model that which is so on its own. 

又状虫成， 
先天地生， 
敚[糸禾]， 
独立而不亥， 
可以为天下母。 
未智（知）其名， 
字之曰道。 
吾强为之名曰大。 
大曰筮， 
筮曰远， 
远曰反。 
天大、地大、道大、王亦大。 
国中又（有）四大安（焉）， 
王居一安（焉）。 
人法地， 
地法天， 
天法道， 
道法自然。 

(Henricks 2000, Terebess)

 

 

 

Here, Laotzu seems to identify the Dao with Wuji. Which is a rather interesting perspective. 

[Cobie]

.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Cobie