DDJ 40

[Daniel]

Greetings DaoBums:

 

This thread is to discuss and explore DDJ 40 its translation and implications.  I hope to go through the different versions of the chapter, explore the conventional translations why they might be correct, and perhaps discuss places where alternate translations are more appropriate or should be considered.  I would also like to explore the surrounding chapters to discern the flow, if there is one, from the preceding chapter, into this one, and flowing on to the next. 

 

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From the Wang Bi:  ( I think? ) obtained from Ctext.org.

 

反者道之動；弱者道之用。天下萬物生於有，有生於無

 

The Henricks book with the MWD does not contain chapter 40.  This book claims to have the oldest extant version of the compiled DDJ.  180ish BCE TAQ ( the latest beginning ).

 

daoisopen.com has a comparison chart.  It claims the following additions and differences in the MWD B.  MWD A is mostly incomplete.

 

反也者道之動也；__ __者道之用也。天下之物生於有，有__於无

 

The same comparison chart claims to have the characters from another version predating the Wang Bi, the Guodian.  This collection is on bamboo with only a small fraction of the chapters of the DDJ.  But its dating per wikipedia is approx 300 BCE, also TAQ presumably.  Here is how the comparison chart renders it with the differences compared to the Wang Bi emphasized. The -- indicates a missing character, as opposed to a __ missing character with a blank space.

返者道--動也；弱者道之用也。天下萬物生於有，有生於亡  (edit: these characters are not accurate and have ben corrrected later in the thread)

 

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Here are three different translations into english obtained from yellowbridge.com

 

Legge:  

 

The movement of the Dao
By contraries proceeds;
And weakness marks the course
Of Dao's mighty deeds.

 

All things under heaven sprang from It as existing (and named);
that existence sprang from It as non-existent (and not named).

 

Suzuki:

 

"Homeward is Reason's course,
Weakness is Reason's force."

 

Heaven and earth and the ten thousand things come from existence, but existence comes from non-existence.

 

Goddard:

 

Retirement is characteristic of Dao just as weakness appears to be a characteristic of its activity.

 

Heaven and earth and everything are produced from existence, but existence comes from nonexistence.

 

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Thank you, I look forward to working through this and learning a lot together.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

56 minutes ago, Daniel said:

… The Henricks book with the MWD does not contain chapter 40  …

Ch. 40 is in the Hendricks MWD, it comes after Ch. 41 .

 

Henricks also has a Ch. 40 in his book on the Guodian 

https://www.amazon.com/Lao-Tzus-Tao-Ching-Translations/dp/0231118171 

 

His Guodian Ch. 40 is also on  https://terebess.hu/english/tao/henricks2.html#Kap40 : 
40 

返也者， 
道〈之〉僮（动）也。 
溺（弱）也者， 
道之用也。 
天下之勿（物）生於又（有）， 
生於亡。 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 40
1. 反者道之動。
2. 弱者道之用。
3. 天下萬物生於有，
4. 有生於無。
1. Reaction is Tao's action.
2. Weakness is Tao's function.
3. All things in the world came from 有(you).
4. 有(you)came from 無(wu).

Notes:
1. Weakness is softness.
2. 有(you) is Tao in the manifest state.
3. 無(wu) is Tao in the non-manifest state.

The 有(you) and 無(wu) are defined by Lines 5 and 6 in Chapter One. It delineates Tao sometimes is visible and sometimes invisible. That is why I like to keep both characters intact instead of translated into another language. It is because something they will get lost in the translation.

 

 

[Daniel]

40 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Chapter 40
1. 反者道之動。
2. 弱者道之用。
3. 天下萬物生於有，
4. 有生於無。
1. Reaction is Tao's action.
2. Weakness is Tao's function.
3. All things in the world came from 有(you).
4. 有(you)came from 無(wu).

Notes:
1. Weakness is softness.
2. 有(you) is Tao in the manifest state.
3. 無(wu) is Tao in the non-manifest state.

The 有(you) and 無(wu) are defined by Lines 5 and 6 in Chapter One. It delineates Tao sometimes is visible and sometimes invisible. That is why I like to keep both characters intact instead of translated into another language. It is because something they will get lost in the translation.

 

Awesome.  I am loving this!  Manifest/Non-Manifest.

 

I need to spend some time on it.  Many thanks!

[Daniel]

@ChiDragon,

 

If the last character is changed as listed below, does it change the meaning?

 

有生於亡

[ChiDragon]

37 minutes ago, Daniel said:

@ChiDragon,

 

If the last character is changed as listed below, does it change the meaning?

 

有生於亡

The modern meaning of 亡 is death or vanished.
The ancient meaning of the character 亡 is equivalent to 無. Not many people knew that. Thus, no, it doesn't change its meaning.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

.
 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Yes. Henricks says so too, the modern equivalent of 亡 is 無 (page 78, his Guodian book). 
 

 

So, he did his homework well. I wish he did the same in his translations. Peace!

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Cobie,

 

Here's my take on this chapter:

 

The movement of the Dao

By contraries proceeds;

 

Things constantly move and evolve through polarities -- a day is succeeded by a night; waves have their crests and troughs; also: thesis/anti-thesis/synthesis.

And weakness marks the course

Of Dao's mighty deeds.

 

A reference to the water-like nature of the Dao which Laotzu talks about every so often.

 

All things under heaven sprang from It as existing (and named);

that existence sprang from It as non-existent (and not named).

 

From non-existence or Dao as wu-chi -- a condition of pure potential about which little can be said, since it encompasses nothing and yet everything -- sprang existence or Dao as tai-chi. In turn, in the field spanned by tai-chi's complementary forces, all things are being created 

[Taoist Texts]

13 hours ago, Daniel said:

that existence sprang from It as non-existent (and not named).

 

Suzuki:Heaven and earth and the ten thousand things come from existence, but existence comes from non-existence.

 

Goddard:Heaven and earth and everything are produced from existence, but existence comes from nonexistence.

all the 3 are not only wrong but nonsensical. what do they even mean?

this line is very simple

 物生 things are born 于 into 有 being，有生 being born they go 于into 无 non-being。

thats all there is to it

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Cobie said:

{deleted-text: Yes. Henricks says so too, the modern equivalent of 亡 is 無 (page 78, his Guodian book). }

 

What happened?  It looks like you brought something useful and important.  The first question that popped into my head when I read the comment about the equivalence of the characters was, "I wish I had some confirmation of this, but, someone who knows the language is telling me, so..."

 

And then, you posted the info, the confirmation, that spoke directly to my inner dialog.  Why did you delete it?  Was it inaccurate?  Page# was wrong?  

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

all the 3 are not only wrong but nonsensical. what do they even mean?

 

No clue.  I saw they were different especially legge with the other two.  Saw words were added, and basically ignored them.  I included them in order to be complete, and have them here for easy reference.

 

My intention was to attempt a word-for-word translation making choices based on their coherence to my understanding of Lao-tzu's philosophy.  That was my plan.  Then this would have been a skeleton, a first draft, first attempt, which others could critique.  But I'm not sure if I will need to do any of that considering the replies that are being posted.

 

At the very-very least, it's good to have those english translations to see how wrong they are.

 

Quote

this line is very simple

 物生 things are born 于 into 有 being，有生 being born they go 于into 无 non-being。

thats all there is to it

 

Many thanks.

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

 

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

…  Was it inaccurate?  Page# was wrong?  

All correct. The Henricks Guodian book gives both a  “Transcription” and a “Modern Equivalents”.  https://www.amazon.com/Lao-Tzus-Tao-Ching-Translations/dp/0231118171  

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

@Daniel Dao is open has the Ch. 40 bamboo slips characters, they’re in the left most column (the second column gives the transcriptions): http://www.daoisopen.com/A18toA20Chapters44409.html  
 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

@Daniel Dao is open has the Ch. 40 bamboo slips characters, they’re in the left most column (the second column gives the transcriptions): http://www.daoisopen.com/A18toA20Chapters44409.html  
 

 

 

Yes, that's what I used in the OP.  The differences between it and the WangBi are bold and purple. 

[ChiDragon]

Please note that 有and 無 are nouns here. They are not compounded with the next character of 生。

[Cobie]

 

On 28/08/2023 at 11:32 PM, Daniel said:

返者道--動也；弱者道之用也。天下萬物生於有，有生於亡

 

Your characters are different from the bamboo characters transcription that are on

 http://www.daoisopen.com/A18toA20Chapters44409.html  

 

your chars:  返  [ - - ] 者     道 動 也； 弱  [ - - ]   者     道 之 用 也。  天 下   萬  物  生 於 有，   有   生 於 亡 

on the link:  返     也   者， 道 僮 也。 弱    也      者， 道 之 用 也。 天 下   之  物   生 於 有，[ - - ]  生 於 亡。 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 28/08/2023 at 11:32 PM, Daniel said:

Wang Bi: 反

bamboo: 返

 

Henricks says the modern equivalent of 返 is 反 (page 78, his Guodian book).

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

12 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Please note that 有and 無 are nouns here. They are not compounded with the next character of 生。

 

Thank you.  This is the sort of information and detail I was hoping for when I created he thread.

 

 

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Your characters are different from the bamboo characters transcription that are on

 http://www.daoisopen.com/A18toA20Chapters44409.html  

 

your chars:  返  [ - - ] 者     道 動 也； 弱  [ - - ]   者     道 之 用 也。  天 下   萬  物  生 於 有，   有   生 於 亡 

on the link:  返     也   者， 道 僮 也。 弱    也      者， 道 之 用 也。 天 下   之  物   生 於 有，[ - - ]  生 於 亡。 

 

 

 

Thank you!!!

Edited August 30, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

The OP has been editted indicating the error on the characters that were identified by Cobie.

[Cobie]

~~~<>~~~

无 and 無

~~~<>~~~

 

On 28/08/2023 at 11:32 PM, Daniel said:

… Wang Bi: … 生 於 無 。

… MWD B: …  __  於 无 。

 

Kroll (page 480):

无 wu2 “… graphically interchangeable with …無 wu2 。

 

~~~<>~~~

僮 and 動

~~~<>~~~

Wang Bi, MWD B:  動 dong4

Henricks G, DIO G: 僮 tong2

Henricks says the modern equivalent of 僮 is 動 (page 78, his Guodian book).

 

~~~<>~~~
溺 and 弱 

~~~<>~~~

Wang Bi, DIO G: :  弱

MWD B - - , Henricks G: 溺 ni4 (弱）ruo4

Henricks says the modern equivalent of 溺 is 弱 (page 78, his Guodian book).

 

[There was a big thread on 溺 vs 弱 on OD, my conclusion at the time was that it made no difference which one was used.]
 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

~~~<>~~~

absence of 也 and 之

~~~<>~~~
line 1-2
Wang Bi:     1.  反 [- -]  者，道    之   動         [- -]；2.  弱          [- -]者 道 之 用 [- -]  。

MWD B :      1.  反  也  者，道    之    動           也； 2.  —            —  者 道 之 用  也 。

Henricks G: 1. 返  也  者，道〈之〉僮（动）也；2.  溺（弱）也 者 道 之 用  也 。

DIO link G:   1. 返  也  者，道   [- -]    僮            也；2.  弱            也 者 道 之 用  也 。

 

~~~<>~~~
也 and 之 as grammatical particles

~~~<>~~~
See Kroll, page 538 for 也; page 603 for 之 .

 

(I seem to remember Henricks said the following somewhere, can’t find it back now) the received text lacks many grammatical particles which are preserved in the older Mawangdui, which permit the text to be more precise.

Van Norden says it’s common in the Wang Bi DDJ to drop the final 也 ye3 (page 82).

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

~~~<>~~~

於 yu2
~~~<>~~~
Kroll (page 567): 

“(grammatical particle) … indicating any indirect or locative relation: in, at, from, to, on, with regard to, vis-a-vis, etc.; …”

 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

absence of 也 and 之

FYI These two characters may be omitted. They will not alter the meaning of the original text.