Sex in Relation to Neidan for Men

[MetaDao]

Alright, I’ve started this topic because I believe sex is a very complicated subject. I’d love to start a real conversation about it.

 

First, let me highlight my current understanding. The most important and pivotal factor is that desire leads to loss of Yuan Jing.

 

The bucket of Yuan Jing that is supposed to refill to the brim cannot refill unless the holes in the bucket are plugged up. This means that ideally you should refrain from all sexual activity as it stimulates desire. If you are working to replenish Yuan Jing, you will basically be wasting effort if you go out and have sex.

 

Yet, I am in a dilemma. You see, I’m not fully confident that it is 100% healthy and always the case that sex should be quit entirely right off the bat. Yes, it’s the correct thing to do for replenishment. But, Jing is an energetic substance with many psychological components to it. 
 

Say, for example, you’ve been through sexual trauma in early childhood. This has resulted in repression of memory, avoidance of sex, and general psychological issues in relation to sex. Some people have real baggage when it comes to sex, raising a bunch of insecurities and fears, influencing the complex nature of desire and Jing.

 

In danger of sharing too much information, I am a young male in my early 20s who’s working to replenish Yuan Jing. I know sex runs counter to my practice, yet I have realized that I have insecurities and problems in relation to sex that I feel like I should conquer before quitting it entirely. 
 

To me, more and more, it seems like sex has a big psychological aspect to it that a lot of times must be dealt with before it is quit entirely. If I had kids and I was a master of Neidan,  I actually would not advise them to not have sex. In fact, I might say have as much sex as you want, knowing the dangers. Know the facts about how you are losing Yuan Jing.

But, do you feel it serves a purpose? Do you feel you must deal with some problems first? Do you need to work things out with a trusted partner before quitting it entirely for spiritual growth? If so, I think sex is a perfectly healthy, natural thing to explore along the spiritual path.

 

To me, sex does matter for spiritual growth. This is because it’s a part of personal development. You cannot rise above that which you cannot do. It is best to conquer sex and explore it, then discard it. That’s my opinion. Of course, many people come to Neidan from differing backgrounds at differing ages.

 

I just turned 23. I have only had sex a few times in my life due to trauma. I haven’t had many long-term emotional relationships.

 

I could have sex for the next 6 months then quit it entirely, only causing minor delays in my practice. To me, it seems almost necessary to work through the issues I have. It’s like a block in my practice. If I don’t do this, it seems like I run the danger of regressing later in my practice when it matters far more.

 

In our modern society, sex is highly prized in relationships. Say, I take a girl on a date. Then 1 or 2 more dates. She’s expecting sex eventually because women have desire just the same as men for the most part. Then comes that awkward moment. Look, I’m not having sex right now. This, off the bat, raises so many problems immediately. First, are the problems you raise for yourself. The insecurities. Well, what’s gonna stop this girl from going out and having sex with other people if she’s not getting it from me? Yada yada. The list goes on.
 

Yes, you could just say straight up, I don’t like sex, it doesn’t lead to that much pleasure for me, and I’m actually avoiding it for a spiritual practice that is very dear to my heart. Yet, the chances of finding a woman who can connect emotionally to you without ever having sex is few and far between. I don’t think it’s a very realistic thing to put into action in the early 20’s stage. Especially if you’re looking for emotional connection. Someone to share your life with.

 

Some people arrive to authentic Neidan in their 30’s with a wife. For them, it’s much easier. They’ve had their pill. They’ve eaten until they are overfull and neither them nor their wife really truly need it too much to keep that emotional connection.

 

I’m not sure I will receive any satisfactory answers on here, but just being relatable, this has to be the biggest obstacle for men. If it’s a problem for me, I know for a fact it’s a problem for others. I’d love to at least read the thoughts that are generated from this topic.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

Respect bro, this is real shit.

17 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I’m not sure I will receive any satisfactory answers on here, but just being relatable, this has to be the biggest obstacle for men. I’d love to at least read the thoughts that are generated from this topic.

This is me for sure - just gonna put my own thoughts to spark further conversation from those who know.

 

17 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

The bucket of Yuan Jing that is supposed to refill to the brim

So you already know this (cause we heard the same lectures) but the system I study encourages initial Yuan Jing consolidation to the point where it can be used to ignite the cauldron - I think it considers Yuan Jing replenishment beyond this point a later goal.  This means that abstinence is a useful temporary tool for consolidation, but not an ongoing thing (and I know your system disagrees with this - just providing contrast).

 

19 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

To me, more and more, it seems like sex has a big psychological aspect to it that a lot of times must be dealt with before it is quit entirely.

My thoughts on the matter is artificial suppression of desire would lead to internal tension that in extreme cases can result in sexual pathology (i.e. abstinent Catholic Priests doing goofy shit).  I think the crux of the matter is how much Yuan Jing is necessary for you to replenish to accomlish your goals in Nei Dan - because if your system teaches continual abstinence then yeah its gonna be super hard to avoid leakages through desire.

[MetaDao]

45 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

because if your system teaches continual abstinence then yeah its gonna be super hard to avoid leakages through desire.

Yes continual abstinence is considered ideal.

 

Basically, you can have sex in small doses as long as you don’t finish. This is what many married men do. I believe in later stages we also extract the Yang spark, so the semen can be shed. Of course, the Yuan Jing is still leaking, also stimulating the post-heaven Qi.

 

Eventually, the channel closes off leading to a natural reduction in leaks and sexual desire.

 

Suppression of desire is basically the goal in tandem with the practice. Thus, you burn the candle from both ends. If you refrain from sex and desire for long enough, many of the things your tradition teaches are worked through. Consolidation/stilling of Jing, ect. 
 

So, if you have done the practice to the point where the channel closes off, there really isn’t that much danger in any sort of deviancy occurring. That’s where the true transformations start.

 

This is why it is usually done in retreat in the mountains. Not in the city surrounded by women and distractions.

 

My teacher has said that he doesn’t necessarily care if you’re having sex, but he has made us very aware that we will never replenish the Yuan Jing back to its peak state before puberty hit if we are having sex.

 

Now, this doesn’t mean we can’t use our own discretion to deem when it’s useful to have sex. In other words, I have the permission to have sex without getting kicked out or not being able to continue in the lineage. I also just know that I won’t be marking progress if I do. It seems like a personal decision to make.

Edited December 18, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

50 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

This means that abstinence is a useful temporary tool for consolidation, but not an ongoing thing (and I know your system disagrees with this - just providing contrast).

The difference in the systems lies in how direct it is in terms of touching the pre-heaven. Everything that Damo takes you through in regards to stilling Jing, consolidating Jing, and the other phrases he uses for the Jing are all accomplished through continual abstinence combined with replenishment.

[Wilhelm]

Very interesting, and mostly in line with what I've been taught!

 

30 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I believe in later stages we also extract the Yang spark

In the system I'm practicing this happens rather early on after consolidation/stilling enough that certain markers show up.  Then it becomes the 'fuel' that ignites the cauldron' (which took me 3 x 100 day periods of abstinence from sensory indulgence spread across years to finally get going).  I wonder if it's happening later in your system whether you're using it differently.

 

32 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Suppression of desire is basically the goal in tandem with the practice

This is the main differentiator as far as I can tell, or did you definitely mean suppression?  

 

The main place I failed the first two attempts was in allowing stimuli to initiate desire which I then suppressed, but maybe you mean to suppress the stimuli from allowing desire to arise in the first place?  Anyways the suppression increased the internal tension until that - even though I never indulged in the desire - there wasn't enough of a consolidation to work with the substance. 

 

This is deviating from your initial topic of sex though so next I'll try to get back on track

[ChiDragon]

21 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

 

The main place I failed the first two attempts was in allowing stimuli to initiate desire which I then suppressed, but maybe you mean to suppress the stimuli from allowing desire to arise in the first place? 

I think that was the whole idea what abstinence is all about.

[MetaDao]

24 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

In the system I'm practicing this happens rather early on after consolidation/stilling enough that certain markers show up. 

I’m not entirely sure when the Yang spark is extracted in the tradition I’m working under. I will have to ask my teacher

[MetaDao]

32 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

suppress the stimuli from allowing desire to arise in the first place? 

Yes. That is what I mean. Intentional avoidance from stimuli of desire to arise. This, combined with practice, leads to completely replenished Yuan Jing. Meaning, the bucket is completely filled back to how it was at the peak levels in your life.

 

A deeper accomplishment than the firing process.

[MetaDao]

Now, to sum up this post now that the theory has been fully fleshed out.
 

Take this with a grain of salt. In my opinion, after the Yuan Jing replenishment stage, there used to be sexual practices that were done for a purpose with a cultivation partner. These would aid the cultivation of the elixir through opening channels or fusing substances, ect. Basically sexual side methods to do with your cultivation partner.
 

The fact that this came after the Yuan Jing replenishment stage ensured that wrongdoings would be avoided as the correct safety measures were put into place. Again, Yuan Qi would still leak and it would be a waste, but say, you were using that Yuan Qi to open certain channels, then it would serve a purpose. You could just replenish that Yuan Qi after.

Now, we may have lost these teachings to time, but this leads me to my point that sex is not entirely detrimental to spiritual growth. I believe when it serves a purpose maybe it is not 100% correct to completely avoid it. Maybe there are certain times where a person should recognize that having sex is useful to overcoming psychological obstacles before dropping it entirely to achieve complete replenishment.

 

Now, in modern times, I think we have simplified it because it is a complex topic. There have been many cases of sexual misconduct amongst gurus in the past. Thus, it is a dangerous topic to bring up. In any case, I believe each person’s journey through Neidan is personal and complete abstinence may happen on different timescales.

[Wilhelm]

30 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

In my opinion, after the Yuan Jing replenishment stage, there used to be sexual practices that were done for a purpose with a cultivation partner. These would aid the cultivation of the elixir through opening channels or fusing substances

That's interesting.  I'm assuming you're talking about something beyond the Frantzis/Chia popular methods.  What led you to develop this theory?

Edited December 18, 2022 by Wilhelm

[ChiDragon]

20 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Take this with a grain of salt. In my opinion, after the Yuan Jing replenishment stage, there used to be sexual practices that were done for a purpose with a cultivation partner. These would aid the cultivation of the elixir through opening channels or fusing substances, ect. Basically sexual side methods to do with your cultivation partner.

I don't mean to offend you. May I ask how much are you paying for the course to learn all that?

PS
Is your teacher a Chinese Taoist?

Edited December 18, 2022 by ChiDragon

[MetaDao]

27 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

That's interesting.  I'm assuming you're talking about something beyond the Frantzis/Chia popular methods.  What led you to develop this theory?

No. I’ll just leave it at that. I’d just be making things up and guessing. But, I do believe it was a thing.

 

I’m talking about something within Neidan lineages. Nothing that is in any writing. Something that was passed down only from master to disciple in a closed-door setting. Probably a transmission teaching.

 

Also, complete abstinence is still a requirement in what I am learning. Just adding some food for thought 

Edited December 18, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

23 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I don't mean to offend you. May I ask how much are you paying for the course to learn all that?

PS
Is your teacher a Chinese Taoist?

Lol. This here outlines why such methods if they existed would never be taught through payment as form of permission 

[Barnaby]

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

If you are working to replenish Yuan Jing, you will basically be wasting effort if you go out and have sex.

 

What if I stay in and have sex?

 

OK, that's a joke.

 

Kid – and that's not condescending, that's just because I'm a straight male twice your age who's been around the block – I'm going to tell you what I know. So I'm not going to talk about the inside-baseball intricacies of Nei Dan theory and practice, because that's not my field of expertise: I'll leave that to others. I'll talk about the stuff of which I have direct personal experience.

 

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Yet, I am in a dilemma. You see, I’m not fully confident that it is 100% healthy and always the case that sex should be quit entirely right off the bat. Yes, it’s the correct thing to do for replenishment. But, Jing is an energetic substance with many psychological components to it. 

 

The way I've been taught, the number one cause of Jing depletion is the emotions. And if you, as a young guy of 23, decide to nullify your sex drive, what emotional impact is that going to have? I'm thinking aggressivity, short-temperedness, depression... And who's to say if the Jing depletion caused by that emotional impact might not outweigh any putative gain derived from the abstinence?

 

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

It is best to conquer sex and explore it, then discard it.

 

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

I have only had sex a few times in my life due to trauma. I haven’t had many long-term emotional relationships.

 

What if after you conquer and explore it, you decide you don't want to discard it any more?

 

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

In our modern society, sex is highly prized in relationships.

 

In our modern society, sex is commodified, trivialised, denatured, and transformed into just another item on the supermarket shelf. Sex is where you came from, man. Sex is yin meets yang. Have you read the Yi Jing? What you're advocating isn't just like going on a gluten-free diet. We're talking about something fundamental, something elemental.

 

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Yet, the chances of finding a woman who can connect emotionally to you without ever having sex is few and far between.

 

OK, I'm just going to give it to you straight. It ain't going to happen. Forget about it. Go away and be a monk. But don't think you are going to have a satisfying emotional relationship with a woman without sex. I think the problem here is that you're treating sex – in the very "modern" way you mention – like it was some kind of object, like a be-all-and-end-all in itself. Like it was something really important.

 

When the reality is: it's just a vector, man. It's just a channel of communication between man and woman. It's a means of expressing, sharing and experiencing a sense of deep connection with someone you love. It's actually the ultimate means of doing that. That's why women dig it 

 

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Especially if you’re looking for emotional connection. Someone to share your life with.

 

And this is what you're looking for, right?

 

So stop hyping sex up into this big dangerous thing that you need to rule out of your life.

 

It's like, what's more important? Being a big powerful Nei Dan master of the universe? Or just being happy?      

[ChiDragon]

5 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

No. I’ll just leave it at that. I’d just be making things up and guessing. But, I do believe it was a thing.

 

I’m talking about something within Neidan lineages. Nothing that is in any writing. Something that was passed down only from master to disciple in a closed-door setting. Probably a transmission teaching

I had read what you told is written allover the Chinese internet. It was nothing new to me.

[ChiDragon]

16 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

No. I’ll just leave it at that. I’d just be making things up and guessing. But, I do believe it was a thing.

 

I’m talking about something within Neidan lineages. Nothing that is in any writing. Something that was passed down only from master to disciple in a closed-door setting. Probably a transmission teaching

I guess I asked the question too soon!

[MetaDao]

3 hours ago, Barnaby said:

It's like, what's more important? Being a big powerful Nei Dan master of the universe? Or just being happy?    

Indeed. What is more important? 
 

But, let me, a young spring chicken, give you a word of advice. In the next 10-20 years, you will no longer be having sex.

 

And, I do not think you correctly understand. You could have sex until you’re 50 then start practicing Neidan and still reach a high achievement.

 

So, don’t come in here with your alpha male shit thinking you’re something because you’re old and have sex.

 

At some point in everyone’s life, you are no longer able to have sex.  The Jing depletes automatically. Then, you die a normal death and enter into the cycle of reincarnation.

 

So, the question is, do you want to have sex like you’ve done for many previous lives or move beyond it to something way more rewarding?

Edited December 18, 2022 by MetaDao

[ChiDragon]

26 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

At some point in everyone’s life, you are no longer able to have sex.  The Jing depletes automatically. Then, you die a normal death.

I am, 74, still able to. It seems I feel like I am 25. What are my chances in the near future?

[MetaDao]

Just now, ChiDragon said:

I am, 74, still able to. It seems I feel like I am 25. What are my chances in the near future?

Well, I’d say you will die within 20 or so years. I’m sure they were fun though

[Barnaby]

7 hours ago, MetaDao said:

I’d love to start a real conversation about it.

 

41 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

So, don’t come in here with your alpha male shit thinking you’re something because you’re old and have sex.

 

And this is what you call a conversation?

 

You asked for thoughts. I gave you thoughts.

 

Good luck with your practice.

[MetaDao]

36 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

 

And this is what you call a conversation?

 

You asked for thoughts. I gave you thoughts.

 

Good luck with your practice.

And I told you what I thought of your thoughts. That, by definition, is a conversation.

 

So far, you’ve proven to me what many males think and why many don’t have the fate for Neidan.

 

Thank you!

Edited December 18, 2022 by MetaDao

[ChiDumbass]

Well, my master has a totally different perspective about sex.

I will put it in a quote by my master when I asked him about having sex with may girlfriend. I'm getting this from my memory so it may not be EXACTLY what he said , but here it is :

 

"While you are enjoying  your little romance, there will be some dumbass who don't understand and try to meddle your affairs. They will give you advice that means as much as a fortune cookie when its none of their business. Don't listen to them, you better ignore everything they say. I been through all this and I know what I'm talking about. Forget celibacy. If you want to get stronger, do it! Morning, noon, and night, do it ! Before and after every meal , do it. Do it until your body aches, do it until you cant stand straight, do until you are sick of it, then do it some more !"

 

I kind of burned what he said in my mind because it changed my perspective. My master is a very strong and accomplished martial artist and I would even dare to say he is one of the strongest in the world. He proudly have multiple children around the world and fought in the most dangerous arenas in the world. Emerging victorious. I wouldn't be impressed if his kids dominate the sport in 10 or so years.

 

I used to be very cautious about this and did semen retention for a long time. I would feel bad after ejaculating and it would make me sad and lose confidence. Now I know the truth and I'm stronger than ever

 

 

[MetaDao]

6 minutes ago, ChiDumbass said:

used to be very cautious about this and did semen retention for a long time

Semen retention without the correct practices leads to bad health. Probably why you feel better. Your post also highlights that you have no fate for Neidan.

[ChiDumbass]

4 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Semen retention without the correct practices leads to bad health. Probably why you feel better. Your post also highlights that you have no fate for Neidan.

My master is a Neidan master

Edited December 18, 2022 by ChiDumbass

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, ChiDumbass said:

My master is a Neidan master

Based on what you said, I would say he isn’t.

 

Look, everyone where I said you have no fate for Neidan, I purely meant that based on your current views of things, it seems that your fate is not in line with Neidan.

 

Without altering your viewpoint, you will not find a genuine Neidan lineage.

 

I can tell you that if you are open-minded, change your views, and seek with an open-heart, you can find the lineages. So far, no one has really had any meaningful thoughts that really help.