Cobie

Paul Golding

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“… just think of the degree of cultural chauvinism necessary for someone to suppose that he or she can translate the Daode jing without knowing Chinese.  (... Chinese people don't try to translate Shakespeare without knowing English.)  The only way would be if you had convinced yourself that you already know what the text says. ...” (Paul Golding)
 
Paul Goldin's book ‘After Confucius: Studies in Early Chinese Philosophy’, is available for download on the Jstor site https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1wn0qtj.12

 

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Imagine the audacity to assume no one can connect to the source of their own being, except through an arcane ancient language barrier.

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I make my own translations because it helps me understand it better. And I share those translations because I want to know what other people think about the subject. 

The Tao has nothing to do with Chinese. Chinese (and not even Chinese- ancient seal script), is just the finger pointing to something. Why not look at what we're pointing to and not the finger? 

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It sounds like you can't learn Chinese and also translate the Tao Te Ching.

 

As if it were a very rough road.

 

In all things, the worst thing is not to try and stay behind at the barriers.

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Posted (edited)

 

嚴復 Yán Fù’s three facets of translation: 

信 xìn - true to the meaning
達 dá - easy to understand 
雅 yǎ - preserves the style of the original 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Taoism as a world view and a way of life isn't (or at least shouldn't be) an exclusively Chinese affair. And that's why silent thunder has a point saying:

 

On 4/27/2022 at 11:18 PM, silent thunder said:

Imagine the audacity to assume no one can connect to the source of their own being, except through an arcane ancient language barrier.

 

But Golding is also correct as regards the ancient Chinese text called the Tao Te Ching. One simply cannot read a text if one doesn't know the language. On the other hand it is possible to arrive at an understanding of life and the world that is quite similar to that expressed in the Tao Te Ching by studying nature, history, and society and by practicing some form of meditation. Tao as the foundation of the world isn't an exclusively Chinese phenomenon as we are all part of the same world. However the Tao Te Ching is also a cultural product of ancient China and as such a historically accurate translation cannot be made by someone without a solid knowledge of ancient Chinese language and culture. That's why Golding has a point. 

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Posted (edited)
On 03/05/2022 at 11:18 PM, wandelaar said:

… One simply cannot read a text if one doesn't know the language. …


That’s all the OP says.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Posted (edited)
On 2022/4/28 at 11:57 PM, treebuffalo said:

I make my own translations because it helps me understand it better. And I share those translations because I want to know what other people think about the subject. 

The Tao has nothing to do with Chinese. Chinese (and not even Chinese- ancient seal script), is just the finger pointing to something. Why not look at what we're pointing to and not the finger? 

 

你可以跟我合作

我的中文非常好

但是我的英文不太好

 

you can work with me

My Chinese is very good

But my English is not very good

 

不過我會希望你翻譯的是老子帛書

這本比較接近原始的老子

現在的老子道德經是有被改過的

 

But I would like you to translate Lao Tzu's silk book

This book is closer to the original Lao Tzu

The current Lao Tzu Tao Te Ching has been revised

Edited by awaken

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Posted (edited)
On 04/05/2022 at 4:14 AM, awaken said:

… Lao Tzu's silk book … is closer to the original Lao Tzu

The current Lao Tzu Tao Te Ching has been revised


That’s what I think too. : )

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie
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On 04/05/2022 at 4:14 AM, awaken said:

The current Lao Tzu Tao Te Ching has been revised

 

I agree. Which bit of the DDJ would illustrate best this revising of the text? 

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Posted (edited)
On 04/05/2022 at 4:14 AM, awaken said:

… Lao Tzu's silk book

This book is closer to the original Lao Tzu …


 

Edited by Cobie

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On 2022/5/7 at 1:54 AM, Cobie said:

 

 

I agree. Which bit of the DDJ would illustrate best this revising of the text? 

 

我還沒有讀那麼仔細

 

不過以我目前粗略的了解

最大的修改是道的部分和德的部分完全反過來

也就是經典的排列順序被改過

 

在中國的經典

通常比較核心的價值觀

會放在最前面

比較次要的會放在後面

 

原來帛書把德放在前面

被現代版改成德在後面

 

我認為這有一種價值觀被改變了

原來是先有德後有道

但是卻被改成先有道後有德

 

I haven't read that carefully

But with my current rough understanding

The biggest modification is that the part of Tao and the part of De are completely reversed

That is, the classic sorting order has been changed.

classic in china

Usually compare core values

will be on the front

The less important ones will be placed later

It turns out that the silk books put virtue first

Changed by the modern version to De in the back

I think there is a value that was changed

It turns out that De comes first

But it was changed to have Dao first and then De

 

就我個人的教學來說

沒有德的人是看不見道的

所以帛書版的老子是符合一個道家老師遇到學生的教學順序

但是現代版的老子卻改成不是以人為本

而是以宇宙論為本

這樣價值觀就受到很大的改變了

As far as my personal teaching is concerned

Those without virtue cannot see the Tao

Therefore, the Lao Tzu in the silk version is in line with the teaching sequence of a Taoist teacher who meets his students.

But the modern version of Lao Tzu has been changed to not be people-oriented

, but to be cosmology-oriented.

The values have been greatly changed

 

從一種以人為出發的內省態度,被修改為一種脫離人的宇宙論

From an introspective attitude based on human beings, modified to a cosmology out of human

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Posted (edited)

https://www.juduo.cc/club/1732198.html

 

我從這篇文章還找到一個重大的價值竄改

 

而馬王堆帛書,有很多地方和現存的通行本不一樣,比如說,通行本的經典名句“致虛極,守靜篤”,在帛書版中是這樣的:致虛,極也,守靜,表也,二者的區別是很大的,顯然帛書版的修為境界更勝一籌,為什麼這麼說?

因為“守靜”,只是表層功夫,致虛,則心無所住,心無掛礙,自由通透,以達無極。

 

我認為這一點非常重要,因為搬運法推崇靜,而在老子道德經卻公然反對『靜』

認為『靜』是『表』

有一本造假的太上老君清靜經,並非老子所寫,卻掛上老子的名義

而這段文字的帛書版,卻狠狠的打臉了太上老君清靜經的核心價值

說明了守『靜』是表面功夫

 

I also found a major value tampering from this article

The Mawangdui silk script is different from the existing popular books in many ways. For example, the classic sentence of the popular books "to the extreme of emptiness, keep quiet and earnest", in the silk version is like this: to create the emptiness, to be extreme, to guard Jing, Biao Ye, the difference between the two is very big, obviously the cultivation realm of the silk version is better, why do you say that?

Because "keep quiet" is only superficial effort, and if it is empty, then the mind has nowhere to dwell, no hindrance in the mind, freedom and transparency, in order to reach the limitless.

 

I think this is very important, because the moving method respects stillness, while in Laozi Daodejing it is openly opposed to "stillness"

Think "keeping quiet" is "surface"

There is a fake Taishang Laojun Qingjing Jing, not written by Lao Tzu, but in the name of Lao Tzu

However, the silk version of this text severely slapped the core value of Taishang Laojun Qingjingjing.

It shows that keeping "quiet" is a superficial effort

 

Commitment to emptiness is infinite

Edited by awaken

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, awaken said:

core values will be on the front … the silk books put virtue first

Those without virtue cannot see the Tao

Lao Tzu has been changed to not be people-oriented, but to be cosmology-oriented. … an introspective attitude based on human beings, modified to a cosmology out of human

 

Exactly, I totally agree with everything you say here. Yes, 德 ‘virtue’ is the ‘core value’ and comes first.  Indeed, the DDJ is people-oriented, not cosmology-oriented. That’s exactly what I noticed too when I started reading the DDJ a bit from the transcripts. 

 

Well that was refreshing. I had been saying similar things on the OD forum but only ever got derision.
Thank you for your reply. : )

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, awaken said:

… The Mawangdui silk script is different from the existing popular books in many ways. …


Yes, that’s what I noticed too. 
 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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22 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Exactly, I totally agree with everything you say here. Yes, 德 ‘virtue’ is the ‘core value’ and comes first.  Indeed, the DDJ is people-oriented, not cosmology-oriented. That’s exactly what I noticed too when I started reading the DDJ a bit from the transcripts. 

 

Well that was refreshing. I had been saying similar things on the OD forum but only ever got derision.
Thank you for your reply. : )

 

 

你是一個真實的學者

 

我在非二元篇的主題也看到同樣的情況

 

這裡有一群人,喜歡把以人為本的修煉哲學,轉換成宇宙論

 

結果卻是牛頭不對馬嘴

 

還能自得其樂,誇誇而談

 

you are a truth scholar

I see the same thing in the non-duality topic

There is a group of people here who like to convert the people-oriented cultivation philosophy into cosmology

The result is that the bull's head is not the horse's mouth

still have fun and talk about it

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, awaken said:

你是一個真實的學者 …


哪裡哪裡 … thank you. :)
 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Posted (edited)
On 14/05/2022 at 1:16 AM, awaken said:

… virtue …


德道 經  - The Way of Virtue Scripture. :)
 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Posted (edited)

經 - sacred texts
 

Daoist scriptures (jing 經) are sacred texts written in classical Chinese. 

Moreover, there are various Daoist views about the origin, nature and meaning of such texts. Many jing [scriptures (jing 經)] are considered to be revealed or inspired.


From https://media.bloomsbury.com/rep/files/9781441168733_commonmisconceptions_daoisttradition.pdf 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Posted (edited)

PWT

 

Popular misconceptions concerning Daoism are numerous and increasingly influential in the modern world. … they may best be understood as part of a new religious movement called “Popular Western Taoism” (PWT) …

 

Popular publications like The Tao of Pooh (Benjamin Hoff) as well as Change Your Thoughts and Living the Wisdom of the Tao (Wayne Dyer) … Such works have no place in a serious inquiry into and an accurate under- standing of the Daoism. They are part of popular Western culture, New Age spirituality, as well as self-help and pop psychology. 

 

They are part of  … a new form of alternative spirituality best understood as “Popular Western Taoism” (PWT) … That movement has little to no connection with the religious tradition which is Daoism. 


From https://media.bloomsbury.com/rep/files/9781441168733_commonmisconceptions_daoisttradition.pdf 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Posted (edited)

Moved to separate thread

Edited by Cobie

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