waterdrop

How did they reach the i-ching images?

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I mean i can understand the lines being mountain and water  etc....   but how they reach "The image of : "  said about each hexagram  

(examples of what i mean by image is stuff like  "duration"/"retreat"/ "Preponderance of the Great"   etc   some make sense some dont and i wonder how exactly they reached this in the first place )          ?       

or how they reached the images of different line of different hexagrams ?

Edited by waterdrop

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aloha waterdrop,

 

   Many images are visual.

 

   Hexagram 62 looks like a mortar and pestle for grinding things small.

 

   Hexagram 27 looks like a pair of jaws.

 

   If yang is bright and yin is dark, then heaven is most bright, earth is most dark.

 

   Given the symbolism of the trigrams, nearly all hexagrams can be interpreted in terms of the trigram's meanings. The cauldron shows a fire fed by wood/air. The well shows organic wood lifting life giving water upward.

 

   The doubled trigrams are emphatic.

 

   Hexagrams like contemplation are a visual doubling of the trigram mountain, inner truth a doubling of the trigram fire.

 

   Sit with the hexagrams long enough and they whisper their names in wordless language. Like the patterns on a turtles back.

 

 

terry

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@terry  How i can improve my understanding of i-ching except consulting it ?

To sit and stare at the different hexagrams all at once ?    move one by one and stare at each 5 minutes ?  10 minutes ?

i assume to stare at hexagrams  -  and not at triagrams alone right ?


Also wonder what is your thought about using yarrow stalks vs coins ?   i was adviced  to not use coins only yarrow stalks  so i wonder if you agree with that and what is the reason for it ?

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58 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

@terry  How i can improve my understanding of i-ching except consulting it ?
 

 

By studying its underlying Natural Philosophy. Working from First Principles, that is. 

 

58 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

To sit and stare at the different hexagrams all at once ?    move one by one and stare at each 5 minutes ?  10 minutes ?

i assume to stare at hexagrams  -  and not at triagrams alone right ?

 

There's nothing wrong with contemplating both hexagrams and trigrams, but I would do neither too much. A better exercise in the long run might be to contemplate how the hexagrams develop from one another, and how they are interrelated.

 

58 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

Also wonder what is your thought about using yarrow stalks vs coins ?   i was adviced  to not use coins only yarrow stalks  so i wonder if you agree with that and what is the reason for it ?

 

Statistically, yarrow stalks stack the odds a little differently than coins, i.e., more in line with the I-ching's inner workings. Alas, they're also a bit impractical to use. Personally, I consult the oracle using coins. But if you feel drawn to yarrow stalks, hey, by all means... 🙂

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, waterdrop said:

Also wonder what is your thought about using yarrow stalks vs coins ?   i was adviced  to not use coins only yarrow stalks  so i wonder if you agree with that and what is the reason for it ?

 

If I may interject, the difference between the two methods is your expectations about the outcomes of moving lines.

Using three coins you can expect moving yin and moving yang lines to appear with the same frequency whereas using the yarrow stalks, moving yang (solid lines) appear more frequently than moving yin (broken) lines.

Just to put in perspective:

  • the probability to get a moving yin (broken) line with three coins is  12.5% (1/8), with the yarrow stalks is 6.25% (1/16)
  • the probability to get a moving yang (solid) line with three coins is  12.5% (1/8), with the yarrow stalks is 18.75% (3/16)

the more lines you consider, the wider the gap, of course.

 

This difference might, or might not, be significant for the interpretation. My personal preference is for the yarrow stalks as I do believe that this asymmetry is significant but many have a different opinion.


Yarrow stalks are, indeed, rather complicated to use but you can get the same results by using four coins, or 16 beads, or special dice, or 8 marked stalks, or special cards, ...  I have collected a huge number of methods for casting I Ching hexagrams and many of them are able to generate lines with the same odds as the yarrow stalks one.

If you are interested, just look around a little and I'm sure you'll find the right method for you,.

 

Edited by remod
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@Michael Sternbach  

 

Quote

By studying its underlying Natural Philosophy. Working from First Principles, that is. 


can you explain what you mean by that ?             (where i can learn about the underlying Natural Philosophy and what are the first principles ? ) 
 

Quote

A better exercise in the long run might be to contemplate how the hexagrams develop from one another, and how they are interrelated.


do you mean to read about how the hexgrams develop  - as in something i saw in past and remember vaguley -  that every hex  developed from the one on its left   ( 5 from 34 and 34 from 1)   ?
 

Quote


more in line with the I-ching's inner workings.


In what way are they more in line ?               in the way remod wrote  ( more leaning to changing yang lines the yin lines ?) 

i do not like using the yarrow stalks not only cause of time  but because i get some shoulder pain ,  but both a teacher i had and damo mitchell talk about using yarrow stalks and not coins ... so i dont want to use a bad method with bad results

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Posted (edited)

@remod 

 

Quote

My personal preference is for the yarrow stalks as I do believe that this asymmetry is significant but many have a different opinion


You mean the fact it has asymmetry means you get more random results  than the coins and that is the benefit ?

on second thought  -  if its still fixed percentages of how much changing yin and yang lines there is  -  so still not sure what is the benefit in having different percentages of yin and yand in changing lines if its still fixed percentages (and if anything fixed to favor one type which makes it less accurate?)   ?



The yarrow stalks are a big hassle for me (time and also some shoulder pain)   but in general i assume also for you they are at least a tiny bit more of a hassle  than throwing  4 coins ....  so for you its the exact exact same thing  4 coins and yarrow stalks ?

also if that is the case i wonder why throwing 4 coins (or other methods)  didnt catch up ...

I do remember  right  now  that  there is some spiritual reason for yarrow stalks    -   as in  there is a reason  to use the yarrow plant  Achillea millefolium   specifically   and not any other type of plant even not from same family of plants  ...  also i remember damo talking about picking them when there is full moon  so they have more qi in them 

I would love to switch to coins  (maybe even online)   in the past i even wanted  more because i read in many places the way to improve i ching is just to ask it a lot  and as much as possible even on trivial things  - or even on how my day will go ...  so to do that online or with coins   is no brainer i could do 1000  every day  - but with yarrow stalks cause of little pain its less convenient ....  but on other hand some really make it to be stalks or nothing , while some say stalks for big decisions and coins for small  ones  and online generator for smaller ones, so im trying to understand this whole issue better

Edited by waterdrop

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Posted (edited)
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You mean the fact it has asymmetry means you get more random results  than the coins and that is the benefit ?

No, there is no such a thing as "more randomness".

Let me try to clarify what I meant by "asymmetry".

First of all, both coins and yarrow stalks produce yin or yang lines with the same probability (50%).

Where they differ is in the probability that a line will change.

 

Using the yarrow stalks, it's easier for a yang line to change than for a yin line to change.

This suggests that things of yin nature are more "stable", they tend to persist in their state and are less prone to change.

Things of yang nature, instead, are more "dynamic" and inclined to change.

 

This is not the same view of the three coins. With coins there is no difference between yin and yang lines, they have exactly the same tendency to change.

 

Now, if everything is "balanced" (as in the three coins), there is no real need for change, everything is in equilibrium. Things may happen or not, they may happen in a certain order or in the opposite order. They may cancel each other out. There is not a "direction".

 

When an asymmetry exists, however, that asymmetry sets a "direction".

it "points somewhere", makes things moving and this, to me, seems closer to what we experience every day.

 

Most natural processes we are subject to, produce changes that are not reversible (i.e. they have a "direction").

You can burn wood to ash but you can't re-transform ash to wood. And even if you could, it would be immensely more difficult to go from ashes to wood than from wood to ashes as the preferred direction is where the entropy of the universe increases.

 

It seems to me that yarrow stalks saying that some changes are more probable than others reflects the reality more closely than the three coins, where every change is equally probable.  You can see wood turning to ashes, but it's very unlikely you'll see ashes turning to wood; and if you do, that must have a very special meaning.

 

That's the reason for my preference for yarrow stalks over the three coins, they include in their view a sense of "flow" that the three coins miss.

These are just personal thoughts, of course, others may have views that would make them prefer an equally probable universe and it's perfectly fine.

 

Quote

So for you its the exact exact same thing  4 coins and yarrow stalks?
also if that is the case i wonder why throwing 4 coins (or other methods)  didnt catch up ...

 

Yes, for me using 4 coins or the yarrow stalks is the same thing. One reason they didn't catch up as a method, I think, is that you have to recognize moving lines by the fact that there are *exactly* three heads in the outcome, four heads do not count as moving line and this may be confusing. At least this is why I don't use it.
To my knowledge, using 16 beads (with the appropriate colors) is a very commonly used method to replace the yarrow stalks.
 

Quote

I do remember  right  now  that  there is some spiritual reason for yarrow stalks    -   as in  there is a reason  to use the yarrow plant  Achillea millefolium   specifically   and not any other type of plant even not from same family of plants  ...  also i remember damo talking about picking them when there is full moon  so they have more qi in them 

This is something I'm absolutely not qualified to comment.

However, if using Achillea Millefolium is significant, Joel Benson devised a way of using only 8 sticks while still retaining the same outcome odds. I initially found it on Clarity, and then, with Joel permission, reposted on my site. I also made a slight modification to make it easier.

 

3 hours ago, waterdrop said:

I would love to switch to coins  (maybe even online)

Please don't use an online generator unless you are very, very, sure of the quality of their random generator!
I've seen sites using very poor random number generators which, to me, makes them completely useless (I think I remember one that didn't allow yin lines after a moving yang line).

I created an online generator that takes the user actions (click or mouse hoover)  as a basis to generate random events but still, I won't recommend using it as a regular replacement for coins or stalks.
Generating random numbers is a very complex and delicate task, it's extremely easy to mess things up.

 

 

 

 

Edited by remod
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On 8/20/2022 at 4:16 AM, waterdrop said:

@terry  How i can improve my understanding of i-ching except consulting it ?

To sit and stare at the different hexagrams all at once ?    move one by one and stare at each 5 minutes ?  10 minutes ?

i assume to stare at hexagrams  -  and not at triagrams alone right ?


Also wonder what is your thought about using yarrow stalks vs coins ?   i was adviced  to not use coins only yarrow stalks  so i wonder if you agree with that and what is the reason for it ?

 

Consulting it is the best way, I think. The collected confucian material, the wings, in the wilhelm edition can be studied. There are many different translations, I have a couple dozen. The tao te ching is a good companion and antidote.

 

Consult the oracle long enough and you don't need to read anything, you know all the lines and all the hexagrams. The hexagrams and trigrams have names but the names refer to essences, and the essences are categories much like plato's forms.

 

Heaven and earth are the mother of the ten thousand things. The two trigrams of heaven and earth combine to form roughly ten thousand possible combinations. These combinations represent every possible circumstance under heaven on earth. By studying actual situations and seeing how they conform to the archetypes, we can walk the ten thousand things back to their 64 x 64 matrix. That is, we can see how everything that happens is one of 64 situations changing into another. The incredible mind-numbing profusion of detail in the world is reduced to repetitions of 64. And within each of these individual situations there is an internal dynamic of trigrams, inner and outer. So the essential dynamics involve only eight possible essences. And the eight are composed of three line combinations of yang and yin, strong and weak, light and dark, positive and negative.

 

What this amounts to is a method of seeing any situation as permutations of one essential essence and its dark side. Gnosis.

 

 

Don't take anything literally. The name that can be named is not the true name. The yi jing leads beyond words to essences. Forget the words.

 

I don't use yarrow stalks, preferring the coin method as being more even odds. Though I often use a deck of cards with red for 3 and black for 2, which also alters the odds, because if I draw ten red cards in a row my odds of drawing more red cards drop.

 

Let your intuition be your guide.

 

 

terry

 

 

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@remod       Thank you very much ,   even though i think damo mitchell talks about using only the stalks ... i think i might sin and try other methods for small questions   (even though i do feel unease about it) 

1 . I looked in your website  -    just want to confirm my understanding :

everyone that has   this prob 


Prob(6)  = 1/16
Prob(8)   = 7/16
Prob(7)   = 5/16
Prob(9)   = 3/16

 are  just like yarrow stalk probability ?             ( i ask cause i understand 6  in yarrow is 1/16  and  9  3/16  ....  but i just want to confirm with you about the non changing lines as well ) 

 2 .   just to be sure cause i read some article that talked about the 4 coin as be best  -       do the 2 coin method you suggest just as good as the 4 coin  - or you think that 4 coins has some benefit over the 2 coins ?
 

 

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6 hours ago, waterdrop said:

Prob(6)  = 1/16
Prob(8)   = 7/16
Prob(7)   = 5/16
Prob(9)   = 3/16
 are  just like yarrow stalk probability ?

Yes, they are as long as you split the yarrow stalks bundle as close to the middle as you can. Splitting the stalks "unfairly" (say one stalk in one hand and all the others in the other hand) will make these probabilities change. However, since one is supposed to split the bundle in the middle, those are considered to be the "yarrow stalks" probabilities.
You may notice that the probability to get a yin line is:  1/16 + 7/16  = 8/16 = 1/2

and the probability to get a yang line is:  3/16 + 5/16  = 8/16 = 1/2

i.e. you have 50% chances for a line to be yin or yang.

All the methods that are said to "have the same probabilities of the yarrow stalks" use this probability distribution for their outcome.

 

6 hours ago, waterdrop said:

do the 2 coin method you suggest just as good as the 4 coin  - or you think that 4 coins has some benefit over the 2 coins

I got the 2 coins method from Clarity as well. I consider it full equivalent to the 4 coins method, with the advantage of being less confusing (no need to exactly count the number of heads, uses a 2/3 attribution similar to the three coins) and the drawback that you have to perform two steps (throwing the coins) for each line instead of one. Personally, I would use it only if I had just two coins and nothing else to cast a hexagram.

 

If I may, I would suggest you to try Joel's method with 8 yarrow stalks. I made mine out of bamboo as I didn't have any Achillea Millefolium stalk around but if you do have access to them, I think you might like it. It's quick (only one shuffle/extraction per line), easy (no calculations or need to remember numbers), and uses the traditional yarrow stalks giving the same results (in terms of probabilities).

 

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Posted (edited)

 I dont have access to Achillea Millefolium  in my country , but that does sound promising that in the future i will order online stalks for that ,  it sounds promising ,  but for now will stick with the yarrow stalks to the big one and i am considering using now the coin methods on small stuff

I was really not sure i was suppose to cut the yarrow bundle in the middle or not  ....    i understood  until now that i am suppose to just split it to 2 bundles  - not to try to cut it in the middle
 

Edited by waterdrop

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In fact, I don't think it is explicitly said that the bundle is to be split in the middle but I always have assumed so.

In the ten wings the process is described as such:

Quote

The number of the total is fifty. Of these, forty nine are used. They are divided into two portions, to represent the two primal forces. Hereupon one is set apart, to represent the three powers. They are counted through by fours, to represent the four seasons. The remainder is put aside, to represent the intercalary month, There are two intercalary months in five years, therefore the putting aside is repeated, and this gives us the whole.

 

They say to divide in two to represent the two primal forces. In my mind, this split should be in the middle or I would knowingly trying to steer the result into a certain direction (by favouring one or the other).

 

Randomness is a strange beast and is directly related to our inability to predict the outcome.

If I'd allow myself to do the split very close to one of the ends (say making the split so that two stalks are in on hand and the rest in the other) I would soon learn how to increase the probability of getting (or not getting) a specific line. Then I could start doing it unconsciously and, in practice, no longer get a "random" result but one that is tainted by my actions.

That's why I always assumed that the proper way to split the bundle of stalks was to aim to split in the middle.

 

Anyway, unless someone has a more authoritative source, I guess you're free to split as you prefer.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I just asked the stalks : What effect would it have on me to use the coins (2/4 coins used)  to make small decisions  ?

and sadly i got hexagram 39 (obstruction)  which seems to mean    to not to start to use the coins 



 

Edited by waterdrop

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No moving lines?

It may depend on your question, of course, but it seems that the advice is not to switch to coins.

 

Have you asked for coins in general (i.e. including the three coins method) or specifically for the 2/4 method?

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specifically asked about 2/4

I wrote on the paper  " What effect would it have on me to use the coins (2/4 coins used) *instead of the stalks*  to make small decisions  ? "

but was thinking just what if i used the coins ...  also while doing the reading was getting thoughts about the phrasing of it  (and add to that i ask in my language and not english)    - than tried to emphasize (cause its a long time to do a reading like this so can ask in many different ways in that time)   that i ask about small issues and not act on it  (cause at start i was starting to repeat in mind " if i make decisions based on the coins (2/4)  in small decisions"    instead of just asking if i advice on small decisions (as opposed to acting on them) 

A point i thought about that seems to be pro not even split  -  is that maybe its the subconscious doing the splitting  .... and if you do it without thought than maybe its guided by higher self -   (anyway at the moment i am soo new and unaware of all hex's so i would not know what results i want even )           so in that sense  i actually can see why the yarrow stalks are superior because they are not throwing of coins where you dont have much of a say on the landing position -   and in same way better than throwing sticks  and better than picking something from a bag etc   ...  because its a choice you make yourself and not something else by chance  - so maybe you have some intervention of your higher self  - maybe even your "normal"  self being involved has a benefit

(just throwing a thought here - again i have no idea cause i am still not good with the iching )

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I get it that purists would prefer the yarrow stalks or numerology method; the coins work fine too, coins are not a less than method.

the I ching expresses with energy in a way that is totally receivable to the sincere seeking counsel. 

Approaching the I ching with sincerity and an open mind, is more meaningful, felt, than the method chosen IMO

 

and i was told, there are three types of lies: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics

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Posted (edited)

Let me echo Zerostao statement here because I know that sometimes I sound dry in my comments and my search on "casting methods" may seem just a trick I like to play with numbers.

 

The first and most important aspect of I Ching, to me, is the connection between the question I pose and the answer, suggestion, hints, I get back. Everything else is secondary.

 

Also, for me, it's extremely personal. I almost never do readings for others, I prefer teaching them the basics and let them develop their personal relationship with the I Ching.

 

In the past forty+ years, the I Ching has been a constant presence in my life. Sometimes comforting me, sometimes scolding me, always helping me get my thoughts clearer.

 

When I started my conversation with the I Ching there was no Internet, no easy way for me to learn from others. So I simply start reading, and in the ten wings I found something that clarified to me how the book should be used. I never forgot it.
 

Quote

The Changes is a book from which one may not hold aloof.

[....]

Though you have no teacher, approach them as you would your parents.
First take up the words, ponder their meaning,
Then the fixed rules reveal themselves.
But if you are not the right man, the meaning will not manifest itself to you.

 

So, the focus was on me. How well would I read the words, how well would I ponder them. Would I become the "right man" so to get the "meaning"?

That's what the I Ching is, for me.

 

That said, the process to cast hexagrams is part of this conversation.

Is a crucial part, I would say, and sometimes I felt it was "getting in the way".

I've started using the 50 stalks (but sometimes I lost count of the stalks) and the three coins (but sometimes they rolled down to the floor) so I decided to try something else.

What I was looking for (and I am still looking for to a certain extent) was something that, for me, could "flow" naturally and lead me from the question to the answer without interfering.
 

That's why I embarked in this crazy journey of documenting existing casting methods and inventing new ones. I hope that if somebody feels that the casting method they're using is hindering their conversation rather than enhancing it, they could find an alternative that would feel more natural for them.

 

No method is "better" than others, no method is more "true" than others, but there might be methods that resonate better with someone's view of the worlds, methods that could help you focus on the words and ponder the meaning.

 

If I can help anyone to find their own personal method to cast hexagrams, the method that they feel "more natural", I will have spent very well my time.

 

 

 

Edited by remod
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When using coins I use "the three coin method" where heads is 2 and tails is 3, giving 6 7 8 or 9 on each cast of three coins.

 

There could be a problem here with what the buddha calls addiction to rites and rituals.

 

I don't generally bother with questions either, at least not entirely verbal ones. I find the yi reflects what is significant to me at the time rather than what I think is significant. Questions are a veil.

 

 

The three fundamental taoist virtues are innocence, sincerity and spontaneity.  The yi is a cultivating tool, a spade or trowel. To prepare  the ground for growing these flowers of culture. With this tool reality itself may be dismantled, revealed, discovered.

 

A nonverbal language to describe reality in its essences, and grasp it entire.

 

 

Ah Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,
Would not we shatter it to bits -- and then
Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!

the rubaiyat of omar khayyam - quatrain 88 - 11th century

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After reading Terry's latest comment it inspired me to do a reading for the 3 coin method - i asked :

What influence on me will have if i use the 3 coin method instead of the stalks ?                           (and since i ask it many times during in my head  -  i did remove the "on me"  part and just kept influence  - not sure if it will effect the results much)

I got  HEX 14  (with changing lines in second and third)   which changes to -->     HEX 21

I am not sure about hex 21 at all  ....  but hex 14 seems super positive to me and saying i should change to 3 coins     , but maybe the fact it changese to hex 21 which also talks about obstacle ( which reminds me of HEX 39 i got before )  than maybe its not a good idea to change to 3 coin method

* this time i asked what if i changed to coins completely  - unlike before when i only asked if i will ask on small questions  (but keep using yarrow stalks to big questions )      so i am planing to ask the same question about the 2/4 coins method later

**  also very interesting  is that while i asked this question i did it all very very fast  .... maybe even double the speed !     and i wondered if that was a message as well .....      though that seems as vague to me as the i ching is :  cause i can take it that maybe i will get very fast (faster than i was now)   with the yarrow stalks in the future ....  or maybe it says that the influence the coins will have is to make my readings much faster  (  cause the fastest yarrow stalk reading (at least with my method)  will still be slower than a slow coin reading) 

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This is completely subjective (and I also said earlier that I don't do interpretations for others :) ) but the part that would strike me the most is the two moving lines.

 

If that was a response that I would have gotten, I would have read line 2 like this: "you have tools at your disposal, they are meant to be *used* (as opposed to just pondering about them). This will bring you results. There's no risk or issue on this"

 

And in line 3 I would read a reminder to me that is the quality of the man that counts. What the "prince" can achieve the "common people" can't (regardless the tool).

 

The fact that hex 14 is auspicious (Great fortune) could mean that it would be good for you to use the three coins, but it doesn't mean that it would be bad to continue using the stalks! I have always to remind myself that the I Ching is inclusive, not exclusive.

 

Maybe It would be too stretched but I would get the hex 21 as a recommendation to move forward (bite through it).

 

For what it worth, my take on this response is that the advice is that is good to use the three coins but it is more imporant to actually "do" something that will make you progress.

 

Usual caveats and disclaimers apply :)

 

 

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fools rush in...

 

14:21


The yi jing, your great wealth, is your big wagon. You can cast hexagrams any way you like. I use license plates on the freeway, random number generators of any sort, clouds and tea leaves. Rocks and foam.


          Nine in the third place means:

          A prince offers it to the Son of Heaven.
          A petty man cannot do this.

 

The yi expects you to be a prince. Do not use the oracle for personal gain. The prince - your higher self, you as microcosm, the order of the universe writ small - contemplates the son of heaven, the human race, man as macrocosm and image of the divine.

 

Thus the superior man curbs evil and furthers good,
          And thereby obeys the benevolent will of heaven.


Possession in great measure. Supreme success.


It really isn’t about how many coins you use to elicit a reading. Nor is it about your question unless it is cosmic. It is about you being a prince. You are an ugly duckling, a lion raised in a sheepcote, a gazelle penned up in a stable.


What is born of heaven feels related to what is above.  What
  is born of earth feels related to what is below.  Each follows its kind.

 

We're all related.

 


THE JUDGMENT

          BITING THROUGH has success.
          It is favorable to let justice be administered.

 

Things become correct of themselves when contemplated.

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